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telecaster wrote:
Certainly someone must have those pictures
or don't they count?

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telecaster wrote:
Does anyone have pictures of the 8 dead Israeli soldiers that Hezzbollah killed to start this war?


You know, the eight soldiers they killed in the kidnapping that started this whole thing and broke the peace

Certainly someone must have those pictures
or don't they count?

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pdog wrote:


Not killing civilians is a pretty new concept when it comes to human conflict, ironic that it's also been created by the so-called bad guys (Western Democracy).

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lotsajizz wrote:



LOL!!! Never heard of Dresden have you? or Hamburg? how 'bout Hiroshima? Don't come to a gunfight unarmed, son.

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gypsy wrote:

Just shut up.

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lotsajizz wrote:



LOL!!! Never heard of Dresden have you? or Hamburg? how 'bout Hiroshima? Don't come to a gunfight unarmed, son.

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Zulu Fun Mix wrote:


Hey, why don't you post your *real* picture, dogface? I did!

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Fiji Joe wrote:

You're sort of creepy...like stalker creepy...like time to call the feds creepy...like your momma didn't hug you enough creepy...are you on crank?

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Zulu Fun Mix wrote:


Nice try, dope.

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nankerphelge wrote:
I posted it late last nite

It bears repeating:

WASHINGTON -- "An international peacekeeping force in Lebanon will change nothing, and we will have chosen shame.

"We [not only Israel but the threatened West] need to choose war once and for all to eradicate that system," a former terrorist told NewsMax in an exclusive interview about the current Middle East crisis.

His name is Walid Shoebat and he is a man with a tough message.

He is also a former fundamentalist Islamic terrorist who, incredibly, reformed. He is now an author, lecturer, and unabashed friend of Israel.

He travels the United States repeating, in a modern context, Winston Churchill's warning to those who would appease Hitler's evil: "We have a choice between shame and war!"

Shoebat was born in Bethlehem. As a young man, he entered the belly of the beast and became a member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, participating in acts of terror and violence against Israel.

He was later imprisoned in the Russian Compound, Jerusalem's central prison, for incitement and violence against Israel.

After his release, Shoebat continued his life of violence in Bethlehem and the Temple Mount. After entering the United States, he worked as a counselor for the Arab Student Organization at Loop College in Chicago, where he persisted with his extremist activities.

But then in a life-changing event, his wife challenged him to study Israeli history and leave behind the Jew-hating indoctrination of his youth. He did and emerged from the "detoxification" experience with the fresh orientation that Israel is not a demon but simply perennially on the defensive against extremists.

The Arabic speaker, who now makes a study of the fanaticism that once enveloped his life, told NewsMax that the West had better abandon its political correctness and worries about world opinion and get down-and-dirty in the war on terrorism. And the West should start with taming the roots of that terrorism, the "mosque clergy" that preaches the hate.


"We have to treat the problem by going to the source of the problem, and that is what we are not doing," Shoebat said. "We are trying to destroy terrorist infrastructure - after it has been established. We have to look at the root causes of terrorism and the root causes spring from the mosque clergy." Shoebat explained that in his opinion there are thousands of hate-dispensing Islamic clergy, including hundreds in the United States:

"We can't touch it because we don't want to invade another religion," he lamented. "We have to treat this dogma - not as a religion - but as a political dogma."

All over the world, Shoebat wants laws enacted that just say - no more hate-mongering from so-called religious leaders: "Once a religion goes beyond its borders, it has to be treated differently. It has to be shut down. You have to arrest these clergy. You've got to throw them in jail."

Shoebat explained that in his view the offending clergy has, for example, been "schooling out" from Saudi Arabia and from the University of Egypt.

He derided the European Union's notion that if you can't beat them, then include them, and maybe they will learn from us - from our way of life - to change their ways.

"This is a stupid thing," he unabashedly concluded.

For sure, Shoebat doesn't mince words.

Within the context of the crisis with Israel and Lebanon, Shoebat said that Israel needed to invade the whole of Lebanon and cleanse it of the Hezbollah - once and for all.

"If you don't do that, it doesn't matter how much of a buffer zone that you establish, because you have to understand that we live in a world of technology and things get more sophisticated."


He goes on to note that Iran, a sponsor of Hezbollah, has rockets that can reach Israel as well: "Terrorists are very creative, you know. As a terrorist we were very creative. We find a different way or different method."


Shoebat said he was distressed that Israel was apparently not ready to occupy the whole of Lebanon because they are afraid of the condemnation of world community: "As long as we are worried about the feelings of the world community, we are never going to really eradicate the problem.

"We either hit them now, or we have to hit them much harder later, and it is going to be much more expensive and much more deadly."


No Room for Negotiation


The negotiation thing is a raw spot with Shoebat, who routinely compares what Arabs say in English to what they say in Arabic. Basically, he is of the opinion that from the fanatics' deeply rooted and dogmatic point of view, there can be no treaties with an enemy.


So if Israel gains the upper edge militarily, he opined, and even if Syria agreed to some kind of truce, any cease fire would only be temporary - until Syria's "puppets" in Lebanon, the Hezbollah, regroup and grow strong once again.


"Condoleezza Rice is going to come back empty handed," he suggested about the U.S. secretary of state's current peace mission to the Middle East.


"It is going to be worse," he added.

"It is not time to move to send the State Department to do any negotiations. This is the wrong time to do any negotiations. You have to wait until Israel eradicates Hezbollah. We have to aide Israel - even if we stand with Israel by ourselves."


Shoebat explained that, in his opinion, the Middle East is a very fragile society, where everybody is afraid of being painted as a pro-America, pro-Zionist.


"Prime ministers and presidents in the Middle East can not get elected by being pro-America. This is what you have in Iraq. Iraq should be the lesson," he noted, referring to the Iraq president's recent overt and controversial sympathy with the Hezbollah.


Shoebat added that the president of Iraq knows that some day the Americans will be gone and he is going to have to reckon with Hezbollah. "He supports Hezbollah because of the tie with Iran. They are afraid of Iran."


"Yeah, we should negotiate Syria. It is not wrong to sit down at the table with Syria." "But," Shoebat emphasized, "the message must be, ‘You dismantle Hezbollah, then we negotiate with you.'"



"Look, this has nothing to do with jobs," Shoebat impatiently explained. "The issue of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with land. Gaza was given back. Nothing changed, and it even became worse. It has nothing to do with poverty . . .


"It is the dogma of Islamic salvation that you must conquer the world for Islam . . . They want to destroy the West. They want to establish Shia Islamic law all throughout the world. They have this crazy dogma - and somebody's got to take them seriously."



Shoebat wants Americans to finally understand the true volatile nature of the beast they are up against: "Over 90 percent of Pakistanis want an Islamist state. They have nuclear weapons already, and the regime in Pakistan is so sensitive that it could be collapsing any moment as we speak . . .


"You have a country like Iran building nuclear and flexing its muscle on the whole Middle East region . . .


"You have Sudan where they killed 1.5 million Christian civilians . . .


"You have Jordan where the majority of Jordanians supported Osama Bin Laden and still do . . ."


Fanatical or not, wasn't it literally suicidal for Hezbollah to antagonize Israel with the kidnappings of its soldiers?


"Hezbollah did not know the extent of Israel's retaliation," Shoebat opined.


In his view, Hezbollah thought it would be more business-as-usual – kidnap the soldiers and get Israel to exchange them for brethren being held by Israel. But Israel confounded the Hezbollah, drawing a line in the sand, saying basically that such kidnapping would only beget more of the same.


"The bargaining chip didn't work their [Hezbollah's] way," he explained.


‘We' Terrorists Are Very Patient


Shoebat is known to start his lectures with, "I am not ashamed to stand in front of you and say I am Walid Shoebat and I used to be a Palestinian terrorist."


Though now long separated from the murderous fundamentalist movement, the now middle-aged man who lives in northern California will occasionally slip and use the collective "we" in talking about the terrorists: "Hitler was about establishing his Nazi dogma throughout the whole word. Communism was the same thing.

"This is the kind of system. They have no respect for borders, just like Communism and Nazis. The end justifies the means - it doesn't matter how you do it, or how long it takes, as long as we get what we want in the end."


Yes, patience is the message, Shoebat preaches. The extremists outlasted the Russians in Afghanistan and they will eventually outlast the American occupiers as well, he says.


The same sorry scenario is also potentially true with Iraq.


And the patience thing extends all the way to the American homeland, Shoebat warned: "People ask me the question how come we haven't been hit [since 9/11]? Well, what they are looking for is a grand finale. They want to cripple America by one event. This is why you don't see small-time bombings in America... They are waiting to get a dirty bomb, a nuclear bomb of any sort and blow up a few cities.


"Is that what it is going to take to wake America up?"


"After an attempt to destroy trains in New York and after an attempt to destroy the Sears Tower and after an attempt of Canadian Muslims to blow up buildings, after Bali, and after all the evidence that we have - we not doing something about it. I think we are in deep trouble."


Democracy-Building Is Not a Magic Bullet


Shoebat derided the American insistence of including the Jerusalem Arabs in the Palestinian electorate. "You know, Israel warned America. Look, this is not an issue of democracy here because if you allow the Jerusalem Arabs to vote, they are going to elect Hamas."

In Shoebat's view, there have never been any true democracies in the Middle East – and most likely, there're never will be: "You show me in history, in 55 Muslim states, when was there ever a real democracy established? So for America to think that they can go and establish a democracy in the Middle East, I think is a very dangerous thing."


Picking the Enemy and Choosing War


All else said, returning to Shoebat's mantra of choosing war over shame, he wants the West to wake up to what he sees as the painful but only realistic course of action: "We can eradicate Iran. It is not a hard thing to stop Iran. But the will of the West is not there. They are not willing to understand, much less see, the writing on the wall."

Shoebat sees the West as burying its collective head in the sand and not facing the grim reality – or matching the enemy's fierce and rigid mindset:


"Now we have to go fix Lebanon," he lamented, expelling a breath. "We have to send aide. We have to establish a peace force. We have to send money - and all of these things. Here we are sending all of this aide to Iraq.


"We have to fix the whole world's problem. We can't do that. That is not what the American position should be. The American position should be that if any country in the Middle East wants to join us, welcome. Anyone who wants to support terrorism, then you are an enemy. End of story."


Shoebat signs off – there is yet another speaking engagement to go to – another forum to preach the hard realities he learned from dwelling within the belly of the beast.


He leaves some parting thoughts: "If the West wants to win, they must be even more stalwart and more intractable than the fierce, sly and ever-patient enemy."


And, finally: "They must choose war over shame."

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Maxlugar wrote:

Fiji do you have that picture of that kid(?) smiling that gullible, naive, trusting smile handy? It was one of your best. It's the only thing I see appropriate to reply to Moonie's self assured feelings of terrorists and their lack of capabilites.

TIA.

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FotiniD wrote:
OK, I've said in numerous occasions that I won't go political on board again, but someone sent me this link and I thought I should share it with you.

Warning: very, very, very awful images in there.

http://www.barborana.com/from_the_lebanese_people_to_the.htm

War is the single biggest human insanity there is. In my opinion, there are NO motives to justify it and even when certain political sides promote certain "Reasons" to do so, the number 1 motive is money. There are no "winners" in wars; innocent people end up being killed on both sides. We're talking children here. Babies.

To be so naive in the year 2006 that we can still be manipulated by our governments to put our faith in a war - any war - and to believe that it's for our own sake or the sake of freedom or [enter false excuse here] puzzles me incredibly.

That's the reason I'm posting this, so that maybe we can really think of what's going on in Lebanon and perhaps protest in our own small ways in hope of stopping it. (Not likely, but at least we tried).

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Lethargy wrote:


You're right, no good reason to ever go to war. For example, we should have just let the Nazis taken over the Earth and exterminated all the Jews, all the while making juvenile peace signs and feeling good about ourselves. We should not have confronted them militarily.

The stupidity of your assertion leaves me stunned. Sadly, millions of people agree with you.

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Maxlugar wrote:
]

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Lethargy wrote:


You're right, no good reason to ever go to war. For example, we should have just let the Nazis taken over the Earth and exterminated all the Jews, all the while making juvenile peace signs and feeling good about ourselves. We should not have confronted them militarily.

The stupidity of your assertion leaves me stunned. Sadly, millions of people agree with you.

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Fiji Joe wrote:


you're right...some people just don't get it

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telecaster wrote:


Of course Jizzy never heard of the V-1 and V-2 rockets
hitting London. Hitler = Good Churchill = Bad

Hiroshima?

Guess what...it worked

Didn't the Japs surrender two days later

Yes, they did

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Your Cousin Lou wrote:


There is a big difference between World War II and the current situation. Self defense is always permitted. The current situation in lebanon has gone beyond self defense in many people's opinion, and the US involvement in Iraq was never about self defense.

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Lethargy wrote:


Can you imagine if idiots like this (the "no war under any circumstances ever, no matter what the thread" crowd) were in charge of America in the time of the Nazis' rise leading up to WW2? It's chilling to think about.

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