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| sasca |
One other thing - I never denied Churchill's greatness - I just said Ghandi was greater (as you might expect given my views). Churchill, for me, is like Alexander or Pompey - a fascinating character who applied himself to tasks which I don't always admire but did so with astonishing successs.
Perhaps it would be better to say that I PREFER Ghandi. But can you admire someone who applies him- or her- self to ends you don't admire to the same extent that you admire someone with whom you agree?
Not least of Churchill's achievements is his writing. Read him on Edmund Ironside and shiver.
[Edited by sasca] |
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| telecaster |
quote:
Highwire Rob wrote:
Quote from Riffhard:
That is why I earlier provided the 1995 quote from Bin Laden. And yes, when one is attacked or placed in imminent threat of attack one does not just try to understand motivations. One acts; one defends oneself. But we now seem to have had a lot of time to uncover and make ourselves aware of Bin Laden's motivations. We haven't caught him yet! After how many months? Years? How many Americans knew of the content of that 1995 Bin Laden quote? Our news media certainly hasn't picked up on it! The fellow Americans that I know, all rightly call Bin Laden enemy, but very few want to make themselves aware of his motivating ideology.
Highwire: I know what the underlying resentment is and I don't care. It is they have nothing to do, no jobs, no future, they do nothing positive, they breed like rabbits
when they have no future for their children. There is nothing for them to do except hate.
You talk about monopoly on the media, who has a bigger monopoly Al Jazzera or the hundreds of outlets in the Western media?
The combined GDP of all Arab countries excluding oil equals
the GDP of Norway. They don't do anything except offer
hate as a product. That is it. And to keep the masses focused away from the real cause the Arab leaders focus on Isreal and the US, blaming them for their many failures
This Iraq deal is the beginning of the end for Arab dictators and royalty and they know it. Talk about a domino theory of democracy |
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| icydanger |
nice to see Ghandi in this mess ty
my competence to argue is limited
philistin: the shepherds moving around gaza area with their cattle
the jews: the litterate
history goes way beyond 1942
2000 BC, or earlier if there is any claims, both populations had been there
brothers in fate |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
sasca wrote:
One other thing - I never denied Churchill's greatness - I just said Ghandi was greater (as you might expect given my views). Churchill, for me, is like Alexander or Pompey - a fascinating character who applied himself to tasks which I don't always admire but did so with astonishing successs.
Sasca,whether you admire the tasks that Churchill undertook,or was forced to undertake is irrellevant. The task at hand was the defeat of Nazi Germany. This was a task that noone who stands for freedom and liberty could have avoided.The 3rd Reiche was marching through Europe with ease all the while rounding up Jews,homosexuals,gypsies and many others with a single evil agenda. This is all basic history that we need not rehash.
However,when you state Churchill applied himself to tasks that you don't always admire. I'm left scratching my head. Do you suppose that a month long fast would have stoped Hitler's panzers? Whether or not you admire the sacrafice that hundreds of thousands allied soliders were willing to make is to completely dishonor those very sacrafices. They sacraficed their lives and Churchill sacraficed many of his countrymen in the defense of England. He was in an untenable position and one which we can all only thank God he took on.
Again,the Chamberlain's and Gahndi's of the world may have their place,however,when you are staring down the barrel of a Tiger tank all talk of appeasment is moot.
Highwire Rob,I will respond to your very insightful and thought provoking post when time permits. Sooner than later I'm sure!
Riffhard |
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| sasca |
I just wanted to point out that I do admire Churchill. No more than that.
There was much more to his life than WW2 - his writing, for example, which, as I said, I admire. On the other hand, he is still despised amongst some of the working class in Britain for his repressive attitude towards them.
[Edited by sasca] |
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| gypsymofo60 |
quote:
sasca wrote:
gypsymofo, we've already dealt with all that. The fact that I'm South African has nothing to do with it - the fact that jb trumpets his Judaism IS worth bringing up because he questioned the right of Europeans to have an opinion on this because of THEIR past. What exactly is your point about Ivory Coast? I mentioned it to counter some statements of glencar's.
When, Pants, have I defended Saddam? I presume you are with Max and Fiji on that ship in the Gulf.
Ghandi is a much greater man to me than Churchill.
Why if the problem is so self-evident now was it not so a couple of years ago?
For what it's worth, here's Osama on Saddam: 'An apostate, an infidel and a traitor to Islam'.
p.s. Highwire Rob, did you pick up any Farsi in Iran? I'm becoming very interested in its poetry.
Sasca, you may have dealt with all this before but, it keeps coming up in a thread that is about letting despotic murderers hold the world to ransom. He is taking the world for mugs, and all but America seem willing to let him have his way..............................JB is perfectly within his rights to trumpet his Jewish roots, why pray tell would you have him desist? Most of what he says rings loud as truth. I could ask you why you constantly defend The Palestinians? I would also question Europe's right to preach restraint to Israelis, I mean, talk about hypocrisy!.........You made the statement that the Ivory Coast was a region of the world that many here would not know even existed, I disagree! And I explained why France are so intent on trying to calm things down in that country, continued strife= refugees, most, if not all heading to Europe, many of those to France. France are overrun with illegal immigrants, and apart from taking measures to relocate as many illegals as possible, they see the stability of a country they have always been heavily involved in as conducive to their own well being.......I personaly admire the brave& principled men & women on that journey to the Gulf, they may just ensure you are still able to voice your sanctamonious bollocks in the future.....Ghandi is,(was) a much greater man than Churchill????????????????? Ghandi faced a crumbling British Empire that was begining to see the erorr of it's ways. Churchill stood firm against a powerfull, and unsentimental tidal wave that stood ready to crush Britain under it's Nazi jackboot. Although without America Britain would have fallen eventually, Churchill was an inspiration to the defence of what obstensibly was a beaten country, he was instrumental, along with Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and Montgomery in the absolute liberation of Europe. Ghandi was a decent, intelligent, and passionate man, but his greatest flaw was his pacifism. It killed him........Arabs like Osama Bin Laden, and Saddam Hussien are like Assad, Mubarak, and most Arab leaders, and I'd include the late Hussein of Jordan in this; they would ally themselves with Mephistopheles himself, to suit their own agendas. Iraq, and Iran are sworn enemies, tell me where Saddam's airforce went for succour during the Gulf war of 1991?.......My apologies to all for the long winded reply, but I am sick of all this poor Saddam.....Boooooooooooo America& Britain rhetoric.....Spewosity, upthrow! |
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| Fiji Joe |
Well put Riffhard....you know, Ghandi wasn't exactly negotiating with Adolf Hitler was he?...Perhaps therein lies the difference |
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| Pants Make the Man |
quote:
sasca wrote:
BWAHAHAHA! Now let the Scots and Welsh demand back London because their ancestors once lived there. You fucking idiot. Let the Celts sweep down on Paris!
glencar : 'except for one or two offensive posts by our SA friend'. So you don't call jb's statements offensive?
Yes, Arabs weren't dancing in the streets. If I were you I'd be ashamed to bring up my hate-filled propoganda when it was shown to have even less basis than usual.
Pants, you only post to annoy. Farsi poetry is amongst the greatest in the world. To deny it...well, you get a reaction but so would you if you stood behind someone, flicking their ears. It's no reason to be proud.
Naahh. I don't post to annoy. If you're annoyed, oh well... And if you go around quoting Osama Jinn Laden, you'll get much worse than a flick on the ear, you fucking half-witted twit. |
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| gypsy |
And to think this all started with a post about Leah Wood... |
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| gypsymofo60 |
quote:
sasca wrote:
And gmf, the WW2 analogy is weak. Not only is this a different situation but those in whose name you wish to speak do not support you. Polls show that only 35 - 41% of US citizens who lived through WW2 support war on Iraq.
The apartheid government of South Africa wished to conscript all healthy white males. I was one of only two people in my year at school to refuse to have anything to do with it. Not all that important in the greater scheme of things but perhaps next time you'll pause before making snide comments about my nationality.
Sasca, the only reason you percieve the WW2 analogy to be weak is because you have no plausible retort to it. I said, "different time, different geography"...similar lessons.....I HAVE NEVER PURPORTED TO SPEAK IN ANYONE'S NAME, show me! by all means where I have stood as the voice of others. I speak for myself. Statistics on frightened people have no bearing on the realities of war when it finally comes. Prior to Pearl Harbour a large majority of Americans, and rightly so, for their own valid reasons were against joining a war in Europe, but when it came, as this one will, (has already to a degree), pretty much all were agreed, the fight had to be fought. WHERE DID I MAKE SNIDE COMMENTS ABOUT YOUR NATIONALITY?.....Table Mountain, shanty towns? I could have been refering to MT. Kosioskou, and aboriginal settlements, or Mt. McKinnley, and an American ghetto, what's your point?......As for refusing to pander to the conscription of SA's Apartied regime, I applaud you, as I would applaud all good rebels. But Sasca, sometimes war is the only alternative to a dodgy situation, and in this case the term DODGY- is a very gentle euphamism. I do feel for the civilians of Iraq, but they have had 12 years to either overthrow this tyrant, or as so many do, leave the country. Ans at the end of the day, my concern has to be for my own, and those of us who will have to fight at some future stage, as most of us will when this hits the fan. Pacifism is a fools luxury. It was you who mentioned Ghandi. |
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| gypsymofo60 |
quote:
sasca wrote:
BWAHAHAHA! Now let the Scots and Welsh demand back London because their ancestors once lived there. You fucking idiot. Let the Celts sweep down on Paris!
glencar : 'except for one or two offensive posts by our SA friend'. So you don't call jb's statements offensive?
Yes, Arabs weren't dancing in the streets. If I were you I'd be ashamed to bring up my hate-filled propoganda when it was shown to have even less basis than usual.
Pants, you only post to annoy. Farsi poetry is amongst the greatest in the world. To deny it...well, you get a reaction but so would you if you stood behind someone, flicking their ears. It's no reason to be proud.
The Scots were predominately Irish, newsflash!!!no where near London. The Welsh, originaly from Mainland Europe, probably, no almost certainly from Spain, hence The Celtic lineage. And no! I don't find JB's truthful statement about the taking out of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in the early eighties offensive. I would find Iraq producing high grade weapons plutonium offensive though. As a matter of fact, had Israel not taken the initiative on that strike I have no doubt that Israel today would be nothing more than a radio-active slag heap. Would The Iraqis, The Iranians, The Syrians, The Saudis et-al give a monkey's about thousands of dead Palestinians in that little scenario?......This turning a blind eye to any Middle Eastern tyrant argument holds no water whatsoever. Get something straight, regardless of all this "Love thy neighbour treacle, those people, yes, even the civilians hate us. They weren't dancing in the street 9/11 for sorrow. Wake up! |
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| gypsy |
I think sasca should fast for a while...to really prove his point...whatever it is.
[Edited by gypsy] |
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| telecaster |
Let me see. For years Phil Spector has been a known head
case displaying repeated bizarre and threatening behavior.
All this was known to all. No one did anything about it.
Now someone is dead.
Can anyone think of anyone similar?
Guess they couldn't "contain" Phil Spector |
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| jb |
Just like the O.J. |
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| telecaster |
quote:
jb wrote:
Just like the O.J.
OJ, good call, or Saddam.
Actually, my ex wife for that matter! |
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| jb |
LOL....Fatal attraction? |
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| L&A |
Who posted in this thread ?
sasca 27
jb 24
telecaster 16
Dandelion* 15
Maxlugar 13
Fiji Joe 13
glencar 13
Riffhard 13
Sir Stonesalot 11
egon 7
Highwire Rob 7
gypsymofo60 7
justforyou 6
gypsy 6
sirmoonie 5
Factory Girl 4
Nasty Habits 4
Moonisup 4
Scot Rocks 3
LadyJane 3
Pants Make the Man 3
Joey 3
JaggaRichards 2
David 2
parmeda 2
Zeeta 2
TT 1
littleredrooster 1
exile 1
nankerphelge 1
rocker 1
FPM C10 1
Street Fighting Man 1
icydanger 1
Voodoo Femme 1
Angiegirl 1
~AzQb 1
Just for my opinion, can someone give me the nationalities of all people discussing in this thread. Could be interesting, as the subject is so "sensible"... Tks. |
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| jb |
JB=Jew Boy |
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| Fiji Joe |
L & A...you are sick! Yeah bro, that's 14 now...movin' on up like George and Weezy |
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| Riffhard |
Highwire Rob,in response to your posts concerning the Sun Tzu quotes and the importance of knowing "all sides" of your enemy. I would say that there is a certain obvious truth to to that. However,there is also an obvious truth that these quotes do not address.
Simply put,if a murderer has his sights set on my family I'm not gonna take the time to get to know his before he has been dealt with. The talk on the Arab "Street" will always be of hatered of the West. When you are indoctrinated in Wahabyism and an incredibly distorted view of Allah's master plan you have turned the corner from religious practitioner to religious fanatic.
The whole Arabic world is being duped by a group bitter old men who are preaching hate and wrapping it in the dictum of Islam. It's worth pointing out that roughly 70% of the Arab world is below the age 40. A very scary thought indeed. There is another WW2 analogy for you. Who did Hitler recruit first? The brown shirts were all young malleable men who were looking for somthing better than their post WW1 lives were offering them. This is what is happening in the Mid East to an even larger extent. At least Germany had a working economy. Saddam has ruined Iraq's economy while still affording himself outrageuos palaces and the items needed for WMDs. All the while blaming the UN sanctions for his peoples suffering.
Germany wrapped all of this anger up in the form of nationalism. Ofcourse,in the Arabic world there is no seperation of church and state so an entire region as opposed to an individual country is being lured into the belief that they carrying out Allah's will.
So I would say that we have met the requirments of Sun Tzu's point. We know where their head is at from a world view. That does not,however,answer the question that I keep presenting to the appeasment crowd.
Saddam has to date broken every UN resolution he has agreed to. So far that number is 18 and possibly another if Blair talked Bush into it. How many times must these resolutions get ignored before the rest of the world gets it?! He must be delt with before he resorts to the worst case scenarios that we know he will carry out. With Saddam,the question is not if he will carry out on his threats,but when.
Riffhard
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| Maxlugar |
ALL WE ARE SAY-ING...
IS GIVE APPEASEMENT A CHANCE!!
ALL WE ARE SAY-ING...
IS GIVE APPEASEMENT A CHANCE!!
ALL WE ARE... well you get the point!
MmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmMMMMMMmmmmMMMMMmmmmmmmmmMACKY! |
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| glencar |
Just remember, appeasement leads to war. And suffering. It's gone on long enough. Saddam must go. To the poster who asked our nationalities, all those who had 13 posts are American. |
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| gypsymofo60 |
quote:
glencar wrote:
Just remember, appeasement leads to war. And suffering. It's gone on long enough. Saddam must go. To the poster who asked our nationalities, all those who had 13 posts are American.
7 posts= English/Australian, both countries populated by far too many lilly of The Valley types wilting as the shit hits the fan, luckily both countries are governed by leaders who are far more forward thinking than many of their constituents. |
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| Nasty Habits |
quote:
L&A wrote:
Who posted in this thread ?
Nasty Habits 4
Just for my opinion, can someone give me the nationalities of all people discussing in this thread. Could be interesting, as the subject is so "sensible"... Tks.
I would like to point out for the record that I never talked about anything sensible in this thread.
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| gypsy |
I'm Yugoslavian, Irish, & Choctaw. |
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| littleredrooster |
Gypsy!
You're part Yugo?!
That part of the world is an undiscovered paradise.
Couple of years ago I visited Croatia. The Adriatic coast is great, warm, palm treed. Drove from Dubrovnik to Istria, then to Trieste. Would love to go again!
If you haven't been, GO!
There are REAL gypsies there!
Roostah |
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| gypsymofo60 |
quote:
littleredrooster wrote:
If you haven't been, GO!
There are REAL gypsies there!
Roostah
Hey Rooster! I hope you are not implying we gypsies at rocks Off are imposters. Do I need to submit my CV. I'll have you know dear chap I was concieved in a Goddamn caravan. ME TOOTSIES have blisters on their blisters, I am a REAL GYPSY.....mock indignation!!!!!!! |
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| sasca |
I have not defended the Palestinian crimes. I have just pointed out that there are discrepancies in the US attitudes.
I have never said anything about 'poor Saddam'. Again let me say - disagree with me but don't invent things for me to say and then bitch about them.
I brought up the Ivory Coast to counter claims by some posters that France was incapable of doing anything.
Many Arab governments would ally themselves with anyone. It is possible that Saddam would temporarily ally himself with Osama despite their mutual dislike. So would many non-Arab governments. The US was Saddam's friend while he was committing some of the acts which are now used as evidence in favour of war.
If, gmf, I misunderstood your reason for raising WW2 then I apologise. But too many people seem to think that saying 'World War Two' and 'Hitler' automatically imbues their argument with moral authority. But this is a very different situation. One need not be a pacifist to disagree with this war - read, for example, my summary of the article at the bottom of page 7 for an argument by non-pacifists against this war. Or the views of someone like Scott Ritter. Hussein is not Hitler.
(That he tests limits the way Hitler did is hardly a startling similarity - the same is true of millions of people, both leaders and followers.)
I've been trying to get away from pacifism for that reason and because, as I pointed out near the start, I am not yet ready to discuss it as I ought to.
The offensive comment of jb's to which I referred was his call for the extermination of Palestinians.
The Celts consisited of many groups, loosely united by language and culture. Some were small, with dark hair - the sort now to be seen in Wales, Portugal, Spain, etc. They were part of the same movement; the Welsh are not late-comers from Spain - others were taller, with red or blonde colouring. And, yes, the tribe called 'the Scots' arrived in Scotland from Ireland. But many in Wales and Scotland are descended from people who fled from what is now England in the face of Germanic (Angle, Saxon, Jute) force.
Of course they intermarried with people of god-knows-what descent but what nations haven't? I read a book, the title of which I forget, written by a US Jew about his travels in North Africa and SW Asia. It contained an amusing section in which he met some Jews whose families had lived in the Middle-East for hundreds of years and described the confusion of these brown-complexioned people on finding that the blonde stranger, descended through hundreds of years of intermarriage with Europeans, claimed to be a fellow-Jew.
Anyway, I'm tired of this topic and arguing. I don't think many of us were really trying to convince the others of their views, and, if we were, we ought to have found less antagonistic means. So, unless someone brings up an interesting new point, I'll consider this argument, from my side, finished.
[Edited by sasca] |
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| Fiji Joe |
Gypsy wrote:
"I'm Yugoslavian, Irish, & Choctaw".
I'm German, Belgian and Fiji...and we were never really sure where my great grand-mother came from...We believe she was Ethiopian on account of she was really really skinny.
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| icydanger |
mixed here
OK, fee jee
History is vast and complex and should be analysed over long term effects, as: we still are wondering about Darius, Napoleon, and others.
Psychology, collective black outs, blanks in time and we erase facts from history.
Data doesn�t take care of all the parameters,,, unexpected events take place, we all experience this at different levels.
Economy went down a little after the involvement in the Gulf, it's not a surprise
( I didn�t study the stats of the departments, I am talking generally)
-maybe someone could give out the data�s
The former President had a more positive outlook in life
and his personal story shouldn�t have been sprayed
The image of America in the beginning of his mandate was good and international relations were opening.
This president looks angry,
Sometimes he doesn�t understand himself the situation
Western
He should open his mind to humanity, collaboration is important, between tribes.
America went through many deep changes these last decades so afer this, foreseeing , making the right choices, is a difficult task
This decison concerns the planet ( bombing and fires affect the atmosphere, then the ozone, -killing people is wanting to control life)
Humanity should come to agreements, between leaders of the continents because all lives are precious.
A carefuly weighed and tempered decision.
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