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| justforyou |
I certainly wish all the worst to those who abuse human rights, and if the world objectively went forth and cleaned all countries from this....who would be left ;-)
Wasn't the 16-0 Security Council vote a measure to keep war at bay...for a while at least. Though what good does that do if it will happen anyway ? |
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| egon |
i have no intention to get into these discussion to deep,
mainly because i think having discussion via email & internet is the shittiest way.
but explain me one thing;
- bin laden "bombs" NY.
- therefore bin laden becomes the world's biggest enemy
and needs to be stopped.
- we/the US therefore bomb(s) afghanistan to find him.
- bin laden can't be found.
- therefore(?) saddam/iraq is the world's biggest enemy.
and nobody realy talks about bin laden anymore...
i mean, no matter what you think, the above simple fact is weird.
ever looked into the bush (daddy&son) history
(in general or in, relation to the bin laden clan)?
and THIS guy is gonna lead the US/world into war?
no matter if you are for or against, i would be scared shitless with this clown behind the wheel.
there is one thing that americans in general do not seem to
understand (or maybe just disagree with);
If a country or person is not WITH you,
it does not automatically mean they are AGAINST you.
i think this is one of the biggest differences in thinking between the US & europe.
i hope i am not offending anyone with the above, cos that is absolutely not my intention.
( i kinda broke my own rule already by starting to talk politics(?)! )
i DO realise that the 11th nov. was a tragedy for the american people. (hell, i've got family there myself!)
in that respect i can understand the feeling about this war somewhat.
unfortunately the US (like most western countries!!!) haven't got a completely clean history. and sometime history bites you in the ass.
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| jb |
Egon...while no nation has a clean history, have you considered who supports most of the medical, food, and humanitarian aid in the world=Uncle Sam....who freed Europe from facism=Uncle Sam, who ended communism=Uncle Sam..The United States is overwhelmingly a good nation...we could use our might in many ways more advantageous to us, but we don't....I think most Americans would just appreciate countries like France and Germany to atleast not criticise us, if they chose not to help us in the war on terror....
[Edited by jb] |
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| egon |
jb, i understand what you mean.
but like i said; read up on your presidents history.
(father and son)
it's weird shit.
everything always seems to be linked to eachtoher.
you know; what comes around goes around.
[Edited by egon] |
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| jb |
Believe me, I am a life-long democrat..The Bushes have been dealing in oil since Prescott Bush's ties to the Saudis decades ago....However, I do support him 100% on the war on terror....We have no alternative but to rid the world of muslim terrorists and their supporters like Saddam...if we don't, 9/11 will look like a day in the park IMO....You are still my #2 ductch friend...LOL
[Edited by jb] |
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| egon |
cheers man.
i'm gonna leave it here.
i know that american & europeans in general think very different about the world & world politics.
i've had all the discussions with my american friends and family about it, and it never seems to get us anywhere.
and 2nd, i think you should have discussions face to face!
this is just shit.
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| Riffhard |
egon,I appreiciate your well thought out posts regarding this situation the world finds itself in.However,again it's not Bush who as has wrought this evil on the world and it certainly is not the USA. No,all the blame lies at the feet of terrorist camps and those countries that support them. Saddam does,contrary to popular belief,have direct links to Al Queda. On Feb 5th Colin Powell will spell these facts out to the UN Security Council. Of course that will only open up more meaningless debate.
It begs the question,which,so far,egon you have not answered. Does or does not the UN's resolutions mean anything concrete? Are they nothing more than hollow threats? Twelve years now Saddam has thumbed his nose at the UN. Why shouldn't he? He knows that the resolutions have so far been meaningless!
Riffhard
PS-The US distributes over 60% of all humanitarian aid to the world.Bush just asked the congress for an extra 30 billion dollars for AIDS relief for Africa. He is clearly a man who leads with his compassion. For good or ill. |
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| egon |
riff,
i read your last, but like i said; i leave it here, otherwise this will go on forever.
believe me, i like discussing these things, and am sure that if we'd meet face to face, thinks would definately heat up (in a non sexual way).
i just don't like discussing them over the net (i.e. in writing).
in that respect, maybe i shouldn't have said anything at all...
ciao |
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| sasca |
glencar, you still have said nothing of any value. You criticise my knowledge of history - where is your own? I know very well who Havel is. 'Those sissified French and Germans should be ignored....' were your words. Hardly 'giving consideration to other countries.' And you still show no sign of any knowledge of the French work in Ivory Coast.
And telecaster - for an irrelevant country, France is causing the US an awful lot of difficulty.
The US has done much good. It has also crushed the American Indians. Europe's history is vast and therefore includes a great deal of both good and bad. It also consists of many countries and cultures, which is why I find it difficult to regard anyone as saving it from itself. That's sort of like saying that the US-Russia was saved from itself. Putting two different things together and calling them one. And if you accept WW2, then the US would have been screwed without Europe.
Of course, few if any of us were around then so we can't claim credit for those occurences. And even if we could, we should argue on the rights and wrongs of THIS situation, not on who has done what before. Either way,jb, someone who calls for genocide is in no position to lecture anyone else so shut the fuck up. (have you read your precious People's Bible? The Israelites slaughter their way through its pages, giving thanks to God for the blood.)
The whole of the West ignored the genocide in Rwanda. The US has backed criminal regimes when they have been useful to it.
I am a pacifist. And no, I have not yet satisfied myself on all philosophical points. But how many of you have satisfied yourself on all philosophical points in favour of war?
[Edited by sasca] |
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| Maxlugar |
Sing together now!!
ALL WE ARE SAY-ING...
IS GIVE APPEASEMENT A CHANCE...
YES!
MACKY! |
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| telecaster |
quote:
sasca wrote:
And telecaster - for an irrelevant country, France is causing the US an awful lot of difficulty.
[Edited by sasca]
Sasca: Agreed. France is causing an awful lot of difficulty. It is their specialty.
As a Pacifist would you be happy if Saddam took his $$, got
on a plane and lived in "Exile" somewhere? I would.
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| sasca |
Happy? No. |
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| telecaster |
quote:
sasca wrote:
Happy? No.
Not happy? Why? That would avoid conflict.
What would make you "Happy"? |
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| sasca |
I�m not sure there is a solution which would make me particularly happy. Not that that is important but since you asked.... It is an interesting question and one much on people�s minds in South Africa - is it worth letting criminals go in the hope of peace? The Truth and Reconciliation Commission has struggled with that.
By the way, here are some recent remarks of Nelson Mandela:
Bush is a leader 'who has no foresight and cannot think properly and who now wants to plunge the world into a holocaust'.
Tony Blair, meanwhile, has become the 'foreign minister' of the US.
Of course, he was speaking at the bloody World Women's Forum which does not impart gravitas to his pronouncements.
[Edited by sasca] |
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| Scot Rocks |
If you wanna look at this morally sure. Was it moral to give Saddam Hussain shitty weapons of mass destruction to kill his own people no, but we did it. Who allowed him too slaughter his own people we did, our leaders decided to let do what he wanted. Who gave him credit to buy more weapons just before the gulf war...eh yeah us too. Who taught him the infamous techinques of torture which he regularly uses, yep us again. Who has allowed slaughter to take place accross the world without doing anything.
If UN resolutions are important why doesn't countries like Israel obey them and withdraw.
Weapons of mass destruction, there are loads of countries after them and are much more potentially dangerous. Why should europeans that you have labelled us, support, an elite group in their search for wealth and power. This is what this is all about, I am not left wing, I am not a whinger, if it was about weapons of mass destr. we would be after other countries who pose more danger than a country who has some stocks of weapons and been effectivly controlled for 10yrs. His main objective as a dictator, is too stay in power, therefore any attack on the west is extremly unlikely, as he knows his ass will be kicked. The only time he is likely to strike is when he is cornered and has nothing to lose and will lash out, like a Cobra.
Also, there has been no evidence that Saddam is helping al queda, I think Bush should be trying to stop them and Bin Laden, his family's best friends very weird egon ain't it!!?
Imho, this is a self interest war, a realist view of International relations and the repercussions could be severe, unthinkable if war goes ahead. It will drive more people to extremism and increase threat of the endless war on terror. Remember we all suffer, not only does the threat increase but our rights disapear as the state insists that we must give up our rights for protection, I think that that danger is as big as the threat of terrorism.
I respect all opinions on this issue, this has been a good discussion.
I am tired, said my piece now back to the chatroom...where other awful things take place lol
Goodnight
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!STONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mark
[Edited by Scot Rocks] |
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| Fiji Joe |
Fiji say...let's fight...
and when we're done with Iraq...it's off to Somalia...I got a bone to pick with those lanky motherfuckers |
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| Highwire Rob |
Scot Rocks, well stated!! |
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| sirmoonie |
quote:
sasca wrote:
By the way, here are some recent remarks of Nelson Mandela:
Bush is a leader 'who has no foresight and cannot think properly and who now wants to plunge the world into a holocaust'.
Its irrelevant whether Bush is retarded (and if you aren't retarded yourself, you know that he is indeed retarded), this is about Iraq. Like Riffy said, put away the politics. You can bet your ass that most Bush supporters on this board would be unable to do the same if Bush had a "(D)" next to his name, but fuck them. This is about all of us. Iraq, with Saddam Hussein, is a threat to the world. Under his direction, that country has attacked neighboring countries on all sides now. The international community (god bless the U.N. and Bush Sr.'s realization of its vital importance in the next century) said we will spare your life now, but you can't threaten the free trade of oil again. He said fuck that, I need more stuff.
I don't think some of you realize what would happen if the flow of oil is significantly reduced from the western world. Fuck the 70s energy crisis, fuck the 20s depression, we're talking Mad Max type shit tomorrow morning. Does Saddam have the power to do that right now? Bush probably thinks yes right now, I'm not convinced that he does yet, either way he should not be given the chance. Him and his genocidal regime aren't worth it.
Scot Rocks, that was a remarkably well thought out post, I just disagree on some of it. The huge foreign policy mistakes of the past should always come back to haunt the US and its allies, particularly when the defense is this wimpy pissy "enemy of my enemy is my friend" bullshit. Well fucking grow up then and make better friends! But those mistakes are the past, and are only reasons to avoid that stupidity in the future, not really reasons to stop Iraq now.
The Al Queda link is irrelevant, not needed. Saddam is worse. Way worse. Not sure if the link is there and don't care.
Inconsistencies with not going after Iran and N. Korea - Not really. The war with Iraq is slowly going thru proper channels. That is a good thing! More of it is even better! Iran and North Korea will have to face the music as much as the world can make them. Minimizing one threat doesn't mean you aren't dealing with another. Fuck Iran though! All this talk of grass roots Iranian democracy makes me sick. Needless and damaging apologetics for some bizarre bullshit political agenda (that only seems to exist on the internet). Christ, seems like you can back anyone into a stupid position just by saying you might disagree with them.
Inconsistencies with Israel that you pointed out - Its called Zionism and unfortunately infects US politics to an absolutely ridiculous degree. Sick shit, but probably a topic for a different thread.
Moof piss, fuck it, Stones in Denver tomorrow! |
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| Fiji Joe |
Personally, IMHO, I am ashamed that, in this time of world history when a small group of nations has the ability to rid the world of tyranny (and not just in Iraq), so many are willing to let their global penis envy stand in the way of what they must know is the right thing to do...
Half-measures, useless deliberations....leave that shit to Sweden...pull your head out of your ass and strap it on...
Do any of you really think Saddam is going to go away quietly in the night?...If somebody tried to kill my daddy, you're damn right I would arrange to seal his fate...
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| Riffhard |
That's the spicy Fiji that we have all grown to love......
2001="Let's Roll!"
2003="Strap It On!"
I can see that shit airbrushed on the tail of an F-18!
Riffhard |
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| egon |
scot rocks, nice post!
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| Zeeta |
Fuckin' stop this post + all shit about politics + war it is SHIT.
We, lets face it cannot do much about it anyway!
Let US, France, Uk Iraq fucking anyone do what they want fate is fate!
Fuck it, just leave it man.
Lets talk about music THE REAL STUFF THE REAL DEAL! |
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| egon |
why should they stop?
it's only in this thread where people talk politics.
this way none of the other threads are being 'poluted'
you don't like it? just don't read it!
so far things have not gotten out of hand and everone's still playing nice.
so what's the problem?
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| gypsy |
America had the chance to kill Saddam during the Gulf War...Schwarzkopf was for it, but Colin Powell was against it. |
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| glencar |
In 1991, the UN mandate was to remove Iraq from Kuwait. Going to Baghdad wasn't allowed. Had the US done it, what would France have said? Quel outrage!
sasca, I know more about Africa than you could ever learn. You still show no indication that you know what the Lend-Lease Program (WWII) was. For those who are just joining, sassy sasca posted that the USA did nothing to help out Europe prior to Dec. 7, 1941. Now sassy sasca, if you want to keep bugging me, that's your right. But please show some evidence of growth at some point. Your inability to post anything besides "USA sucks!" is tiresome.
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| sasca |
If you want to disagree with me, disagree with me. But don't bitch at me because of things you have invented for me to say. Not once have I said that the 'USA sucks'. You, on the other hand, have insulted France and Germany. On other threads I have defended the US. The fact that I disagree with its President over this (as do many of its citizens) does not mean that I am anti-US and to say so is incredibly arrogant.
But I don't think you really care what I post (you certainly haven't looked very far if you think this is the only topic on which I write) - I think you just dislike me for being a 'pansy-assed gal'.
As for me 'bugging you' - both times we've had an argument, you approached me. I recall that last time you started out by saying that my lies were poison and that you were the antidote - and then got all sniffy because my reply was less than polite. You have continued along those lines.
I posted that the US joined WW2 because of concerns for itself. Which is quite different to what you claim I said. The Lend-Lease Programme was a plan which became US law on March 11 1941, providing weapons, food, equipment etc. to those countries whose fight against the Axis powers aided US defense.
And you know more about Africa than I could ever learn? No, that's just pompous nonsense. You may of course know more than I do at the moment. On many topics. But you haven't yet shown any signs of doing so. Repetition of the words 'land' and 'lease' does not equal encyclopaedic knowledge.
In short, you display pretty much everything you - wrongly -accuse me of showing. Which leads me to believe that either:
1 - you're a troll, bent simply on annoying me;
or,
2 - that you're thick as pig-shit.
[Edited by sasca] |
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| sasca |
A few interesting links:
Blix - US misquotes me www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/31/1043804520548.html
On the gassing of Kurds; on water - www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html?ex=1045030380&ei=1&en=97b6c3c76ea6ffe5
evidence - http://afr.com/world/2003/01/31/FFXZH4YJJBD.html
Invoking WW2 - (polls: only 35%-41% of those aged 75 or older support war on Iraq.)
www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035776907012&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795
On reasons - http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=95dbf53f9e3fdb9c4914298f20b91265
[Edited by sasca] |
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| glencar |
First, I had no idea you were female. Your aggressiveness led me to believe otherwise. Anyway, I keep restating Lend-Lease because you never acknowledged that the US actually did help out before Pearl Harbor. You've now shown that you realize that. Growth is good. When I knock France & Germany, it should be noted that it's their governments & militaries that I'm talking about. The fact is that war is going to happen & Saddam is going to go. Namby-pamby peaceniks can acquiesce in Iraq's crimes or they can acknowledge the truth. But constant whinnying & braying is useless. As for those in the US who are against war plans, some of that is partisan politics & some is a long-held habit.
[Edited by glencar] |
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| sasca |
Well, if you think females are neccessarily less aggressive, you haven't been hanging around this board much. But no, I'm not female. I was using 'gal' as you had used it in a previous post.
Let's leave it at that. We aren't going to agree and I hate arguments. |
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| Riffhard |
Bottom line on this subject is very simple. Iraq is run by an absolute tyrannt who has pledged the destruction of the US by any means possible. Including the smuggling of WMD to terrorists. This country was attacked on 9/11/01 in the worst terrorist attack the world has ever seen. The very terrorists that planed and carried out that attack are the same type that Saddam would love to help out! The fact that he pays the families of suicide bombers $25,000.00 in Gazza and the West Bank tells you all you need to know about the evilness of this murderer!
If the UN was around in 1939-45 Hitler's thugs would still be firing up the ovens! Absolute useless organization! Tits on a bull if ever there was one. If Saddam could kill any and all Americans he would. The UN,and apparently Germany and France,would like to wait until he achieves that level of threat before they finally get off their panzy asses!
The world changed on 9/11.We will now use premptive strikes to destroy a regieme who has sworn any alliance to the purveyors of terrorism. That is the first job of the US goverment. The protection of the populace. Again,Saddam as pledged to Allah the destrution of the USA. He must go! He will go!
To sit around and debate his capabability of carrying off any major threat is to give him more time to prove his lethalness! I am totally perplexed by the mentality that exists in Europe! While calling Bush a cowboy and reckless they completely ignore the fact that Saddam not only attempted to kill his father,but has had direct links to terrorism around the globe including Europe!
If a madman vows to kill your family what would you do sasca? I mean I know you are a total pascifist to the point of complete inaction when it is so obviously needed,but what would you do? Would you allow your family to be butchered in the name of peace?! If anyone ever said to me that his goal was the destuction of my family. I would take that fucker out! Period! End of story!
Well guess what sasca. That is EXACTLY what Saddam has promised to attempt to do! You truly beleive he won't pass these weapons,that we know he has,on to his terrorists comrades! You have the sheer audacity to suggest that the USA do nothing to take this pure incarnate of evil out?! If that is your stance there is absolutly nothing that you can say to justify any reason for it. The loss of innocent life...blah,blah,blah. What about the loss of innocent life that he is already directly responsible for? Or the loss of innocent life that he is paying for in Gazza?! Or the loss of life that he is contemplating for the people of the USA?!
I anxisouly awaite his demise. If it can happen without war so much the better,but make no mistake about it he must go!
Riffhard
[Edited by Riffhard] |
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