|
|
| justforyou |
...hmmm just where are you coming from Riffy ? Saddam has had squirmishes with his local neighbours, but has he ever attacked the 'west' ? |
|
|
| FPM C10 |
Hey! A whole big thread about Leah Wood! How nice! Haven't read it but I bet it's all about how perky she is.
I got her autograph in Pittsburgh in '99 and have been patiently waiting for her to get famous so it'll be worth something. Judging from the amount of interest she's stirred up, I guess my waiting days are over!
(Actually this is a joke. The thread is making me ill, just like the "president" who inspired it.)
Yeah Leah! You GO girl! |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
...hmmm...really got to question your intelligence level justforyou...let's see, overt attempts to control the supply of oil, a decidedly western intetrest...the sponsoring of muslim extremists whose sworn goal is the end of western civilization...and oh yeah, the attempted assasination of an American President...you know, where I come from, you don't have to let a bully bloody your nose before you bust his knee caps with a baseball bat |
|
|
| telecaster |
quote:
justforyou wrote:
...hmmm just where are you coming from Riffy ? Saddam has had squirmishes with his local neighbours, but has he ever attacked the 'west' ?
Squirmishes? Squirmishes? Iraq launched ballistic missles
into 5 different neighboring countries and invaded 2.
Squirmishes? Hardly.
They have the will but not the means yet.
We have the means but do we have the will. Yes, we do. |
|
|
| sasca |
First just a point that Saddam Hussein is just the type of opportunist detested by the likes of Osama BL. Such governments as his would be swept away if Al-Quaeda had its way.
I pointed out a while ago that I am not yet in a position to effectively argue for pacifism. A problem faced in doing so is that I am arguing in a context in which war is justified. If you started from a neutral position and had to argue the strengths of the various cases, the savagery of war would not be so easily dismissed. If it were that people felt the need to justify war as they do pacifism, they might find it harder to do than they think. I don't just mean the 'WTF, they deserve death' sort of statement.
And how can you kill unless you are certain? I believe there is a difference between personal defense and war. Lytton Strachey was a CO during WW1. He was asked something along the lines of 'what would you do if your sister were being raped by a German' to which he replied 'I should attempt to come between them'.
Also, many careful observers are far less convinced about the dangers than you are, Riffhard. You may be right, but take a look at the links I provided. I don't vouch for their truthfulness or accuracy but they are worth a look.
Here is a pro-pacifist extract: 'One of the techniques that my critics used to point out that I wasn't personally a 'true pacifist' was to ask 'suppose your wife were going to be raped. Would you still refuse to use violence?' To this I had to admit that I would not.
But why does this disqualify one from being a pacifist? If someone claims to be a vegetarian ie. one who refuses to eat meat, it is common for sceptics to ask 'What about eggs?' 'Would you eat fish?' But I've never heard anyone say 'Suppose your wife was going to be raped unless you ate a burger. Would you still be a vegetarian?'
In fact, it is only because historically there have been many pacifists who were just that committed in their refusal, that we hold 'true pacifism' to such a higher standard than 'true vegetarianism' or even 'true libertarianism.' (On the last point, I asked my critic - a self-professed anarchist - if he would rather allow the existence of government than allow his wife to be raped. He answered yes, and so I pointed out that he's therefore not a 'true anarchist'.) The fact that many people have been willing to die rather than use violence shoudn't somehow discredit pacifism; it should rather strengthen it.
Now there s a sense in which my critic's question was more legitimate than if he'd used the same technique against a professed vegetarian. Most people generally condemn the use of violence, except in certain situations. Therefore, if one is going to call oneself a pacifist, the critic wants to know exactly how one's stance differs from the typical one. [and pacifism is particularly concerned with that sort of violence - sasca]
I would answer that the pacifist is one who views violence as unsavoury per se. If you like, we can say that the types of cases in which a person would actually use violence would be a gauge of the 'purity' of his pacifism. But I don't think it's helpful to merely divide the world into 'those who wouldn't use violence to prevent the rape of a spouse' and 'those who would.'
To illustrate: Libertarians agree that it is immoral to initiate aggression. But the pacifistic person would say that this principle, though valid, is too permissive of defensive violence. He would not, for example, shoot someone for breaking into his car, The extremely pure pacifist wouldn't even punch an attacker to avoid a vicious beating. And of course the purest of pacifists (many of whom have actually lived and died) wouldn't use violence even to save their own lives.'
I'm not happy with all of the above, but it's a useful summary.
[Edited by sasca] |
|
|
| justforyou |
So who's the rapist and who's the victim in this Iraq situation ? |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
Man, that extensive view you quote Sasca looks alot like some of the horsehit that was flowing from the mouths of the Vienna cafe' coffee sippers circa 1938..."Horrors of war"...profound...there are horrors of pacifism too my friend...and a whole lot of Russians, Jews, Poles, French, Serbs, etc. can tell you all you want to know...
I look it far more simply...Am I gonna go down pissing my pants?...or am I gonna go down swinging?
|
|
|
| Maxlugar |
I fully support Sasca's intent on being a human shield.
What? What do you mean she didn't say that?
Oh.
Well, she should have.
MACKY! |
|
|
| Highwire Rob |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
The fact that he pays the families of suicide bombers $25,000.00 in Gaza and the West Bank tells you all you need to know about the evilness of this murderer!
And U.S. citizens (if you pay your taxes) by 1991 had paid a total of $3 Billion alone to caterpillar bulldoze, pave & build--in violation of UN Resolutions--settlements on the Palestinians' land. Sadam may be a murdering tyrant but our U.S. money flow isn't less "evil," to use your qualifier. Just to get a perspective on the $: This 2003, additional subsidy from U.S. to Israel is believed to be $14 Billion; Bringing total ~55 year history of support to over $90 Billion. What have the Palestinians received from the U.S. relative to this? a mere pittance.
quote:
If a madman vows to kill your family what would you do sasca? I mean I know you are a total pacifist to the point of complete inaction when it is so obviously needed, but what would you do? Would you allow your family to be butchered in the name of peace?! If anyone ever said to me that his goal was the destruction of my family. I would take that fucker out! Period! End of story!
Riffhard, you have just described in your own words the feelings that many Palestinians must live with every day! Only it's not just a "madman" they face but systematic state oppression from whole governments.
This impending war may look like a complete success for the U.S. when it comes and goes. But we should not let ourselves be deceived by the apparent calm that follows. Whether it is months or years, the 1.2 billion Muslims of the world are not just going to sit back and watch the U.S.'s continued complicity in oppressing the Palestinians.
Whether or not you agree with the following quote, it offers some invaluable insight for all Americans [also see Sun Tzu quote].
�The American imposes himself on everyone. Americans accuse our children in Palestine of being terrorists�those children, who have no weapons and have not even reached maturity. At the same time, Americans defend a country, the state of the Jews, that has a policy to destroy the future of these children . . . Your situation with Muslims in Palestine is shameful�if there is any shame left in America. Houses were demolished over the heads of children. Also by the testimony of relief workers in Iraq, the American-led sanctions resulted in the death of more than one million Iraqi children. All of this is done in the name of American interests. We believe that the biggest thieves in the world, and the terrorists, are the Americans. The only way for us to fend off these assaults is to use similar means. We do not worry about American opinions or the fact that they place prices on our heads. We as Muslims believe our fate is set.� --Osama Bin Laden 5/1998
The above is a quote presented in the book review titled �Secrets of September 11� by Thomas Powers, New York Review of Books, October 10, 2002, p. 51. The original source of this quote is from the book titled, The Cell: Inside the 9/11 Plot, and Why the FBI and CIA Failed to Stop It, by John Miller and Michael Stone, with Chris Mitchell. Hyperion, 336 pp. |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
Highwire...all your innane babble might make sense if the palestinians were not killing innocent people...hell, I'd probably support their cause...but you see, that ain't the case...how can you so easily overlook that very important fact? Don't worry man, your comforable life won't be upset by any of this...so step the fuck aside and let the people who give a damn do their thing...
And the other fundamental flaw in your quote and corresponding rationale...this world view that is attributed to the palestinians is the only view they are ALLOWED to have...Ain't exactly like they can openly state in any other view other than which their government sanctions...not like you and me...
And if you knew anything about the middle-east, you would know that arabs could give a fuck about the palestinians...they only support them to the extent that it furthers their anti-American fetish...
[Edited by Fiji Joe]
[Edited by Fiji Joe] |
|
|
| Highwire Rob |
My post still stands...against your fatuous babble--You didn't address one issue, yet you edited your post twice?
Fiji, for a lawyer who came up with some eloquent legal defenses for Ted Nugent, why all the abusive (w/ vulgar language)ad hominems?
I lived in the Middle East, in Saudi Arabia and Iran. My family has Arabic friends here in the U.S. and overseas. But, evidently you know so much about me. Are you certain that I'm not Arabic? Muslim? Palestinian? or would that be deserving of even more slander?
If I wanted to be "comfortable" as you put it, I'd probably be taking your stance re: "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ" (CNN banner used w/out permission). |
|
|
| telecaster |
quote:
Highwire Rob wrote:
I lived in the Middle East, in Saudi Arabia and Iran. My family has Arabic friends here in the U.S. and overseas. But, evidently you know so much about me. Are you certain that I'm not Arabic? Muslim? Palestinian? or would that be deserving of even more slander?
Highwire: Since the early 70's there have been several
different US Presidents from both parties and several different Isreali Presidents from both parties dealing
to try and settle this issue.
What is the one constant? Yassar Araft. He is the only
constant in the whole equation throough all of the problems and the sole reason there is not peace now |
|
|
| LadyJane |
"Rock'n'roll is a better form of
communication than politics."
-- Alex Harvey, 1975
Just thought I'd throw the above quote in for some perspective.
My Brother's and Sister's let's come together. The issues here haven't been solved in 2000 years and it ain't going be solved here.
It boils down to this: Throughout history those with Power and Resources rule. The list of who has been fucked is endless....Caveman vs. Caveman over food, Pharoh vs the Jews, European Settlers vs. Native Americans, Hitler vs. Non-Aryans, Russians vs. Afghans, Republicans vs. Democrats, etc. etc..........
My point--Somebody will always want what somebody else has. It's human nature.
My question--If the Earth were at peril from an outside source, could we come to a common ground??? I wonder??
"War, children, it's just a shot away"
LadyJ.
|
|
|
| sasca |
quote:
Fiji Joe wrote:
I look it far more simply...Am I gonna go down pissing my pants?...or am I gonna go down swinging?
I think it's fair to say that most members of this board will go down pissing their pants.
Max, I presume you and Fiji are posting from a military ship in the Gulf? |
|
|
| LadyJane |
quote:
sasca wrote:
I think it's fair to say that most members of this board will go down pissing their pants.
Max, I presume you and Fiji are posting from a military ship in the Gulf?
Very antagonistic comment from a pacifist like yourself, Sasca!! Don't you have any homework; maybe a paper to write or something?
LadyJ. |
|
|
| telecaster |
quote:
LadyJane wrote:
Very antagonistic comment from a pacifist like yourself, Sasca!! Don't you have any homework; maybe a paper to write or something?
LadyJ.
Very telling comment from Sasca. True colors come out
|
|
|
| sasca |
Not really antagonistic. The first part was a reference to the alcohol and drug consumption of many members of the board. The second was in reply to a comment of Max's a few posts ago. |
|
|
| sasca |
Telecaster, what are you on about? You don't make something so by saying it. |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
Highwire...you ain't gonna get an eloquent defense to that crap you posted...If you're that far off the reservation there's no bringing you back...And I did address the issue...the ultimate issue...that is, this noble view and cause you attach to the palestinians is a sham...you act as if these guys are the middle-eastern equivalent to Ghandi...The palestinians are directed and governed by thugs and as Telecaster pointed out, until those thugs are removed, there will be no chance of peace...none...And you wanna talk about dodging the issue...reconcile your quote with the tactics in which the palestinians have chosen to liberate themselves from this oppression you speak of...If this were simply a matter of the Israeli military gunning down rock-chucking palestinians, I would have to say you have a point and something would need to be done and that any support America would give to such acts would have to be seriously questioned...Not at all what's going on here...never has been...the palestinian issue will never be resolved until the palestinians are governed by someone whose power is not dependent and contingent upon the sytematic extermination of the Jews from the region...such is the stated goal of those who allow Arafat and others to remain in power...
Do me a favor Highwire...spare me the reactionary, ivory-tower horsepoop that dribbles from your fingers and provide me with a pragmatic solution to the palestinian question...I think you'll find that whatever solution you propose has already been substantively offered to the palestinians on multiple occasions and rejected...Why?... because those who govern the palestininas are wholly dependent on the monetary funds provided to them by those whose interest it is to maintain conflict in the middle-east and to have the question unresolved...those whose goal is not the existence of a palestinian state...but those whose goal is a return to muslim superiority and the eradication of western civilization...
And I don't give a rat's ass if you're arab or muslim...that would lend you no additional credibility nor would it warrant any additional criticism...your viewpoint is flawed because it's fucking stupid...not because you wear a towel on your head...
..and the colored girls go doo doo doo doo doo doodoodoodoo doo doo dooo doo doo |
|
|
| Riffhard |
Figi's point is irrefutable on the Palestinian issue. Arafat is the one constant. He was offered a great deal on a silver platter just a few short years ago. He refused it. Why? Because he knows that once he accepts any deal with "the wicked jews" his ass is gone. Highwire,while I have no doubt that Isreal has some serious issues concerning the occupation that it must resolve before any chance of peace is possible. It's worth noting that peace is the last thing on Yasser's mind. He constantly speaks of driving the jews into the sea. The schools that teach young Palestinians don't even acknowledge the existnce of an Isreali state! It is on none of their maps. They have museums with replicas of pizza palors that have been destroyed by "Alah's mayrters"! There will never be a viable peace as long as this is thier way of dealing with their "occupation".
As for the USA aggressive stance. Why is it that just because the US is the only country that is willing to back the UN resolutions we are considered the aggressor here? That is the one question that has been so clearly ignored by the so called pascifists. What good are the UN sanctions and resolutions if they are never followed up on?! Why have a UN Security Counsel if it refuses to enforce the very resolutions that they pass?
Riffhard
[Edited by Riffhard] |
|
|
| glencar |
Count me as one who'd like to see the Israelis & Palestinians settle that nonsense. The settlements that the Israelis are building are an obvious impediment to peace. Arafat's poor leadership is also an impediment. But I'm not sure what any of this has to do with ridding the world of Saddam.
And it's nice to see a pacifist like sasca painting everyone with the same broad brush. Class act? Not hardly. |
|
|
| Pants Make the Man |
What's that you say? Sasca is going to offer herself up as a human shield?! Yes!!
Joey is right...Maxy has the most creative ideas.
If this was WWII, you would be defending Hitler, sasca. That's where your head is at. |
|
|
| Riffhard |
Remember there is absolutly no evidence that Saddam has done anything wrong here. The weapons inspectors have found nothing. Bush is a cowboy with ulterior motives. Bush is only in it for the oil. We can trust Saddam when he tells us he has no weapons.....blah,blah,blah........all that talk is obvious rubbish!
So tell me sasca,egon,Highwire Rob. How do you guys like your crow?
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5921220%5E663,00.html
Riffhard |
|
|
| Highwire Rob |
�... not because you wear a towel on your head...�
Kind of defeats any rational argument you may have when you use racist-like remarks. Elsewhere in this thread, someone used the term �towel heads� in reference to Arabs.
This is not the first time I�ve seen that on this board. It compels me to confront these issues. It unnecessarily poisons a great site that the Administrators have set up for us. Also, cavalier references to �bombing� certain European countries have also been made. They�re not funny if you mean them to be, and they reduce your argument value to nil. I wonder how long posts/threads would stay up if parallel slurs were made against Jews? Or, if some European member thought it equally funny to say lets all bomb the arrogant Americans?
If it�s �horsepoop that dribbles from� my fingers Fiji then you have invested a lot of time in typing in it and not stepping over it.
Consistently, your posts depict all Palestinians as terrorists, or complicit in the sporadic acts of terroristic individuals or cells. And your description of Palestinians as attempting �systematic� extermination of the Jews is utterly ridiculous. You have to have a system in order to be systematic and the Israeli Government (with U.S. Billions in $ help) continues to beat these people (and their homes) down so that any Palestinian government �system,� not to mention any Palestinian school �system� and any Palestinian family �system� is presently quashed. And desperate people are going to use desperate means to protect their families, land, and basic existence.
But perhaps your �comfortable� lifestyle doesn�t permit such empathy for the majority who are not terrorists.
So give me a break! It�s Sharon who wishes to ethnically cleanse Israeli borders of the Palestinians, expelling them ever further off the land. A U.S./coalition conflict with Iraq may well give him more impetus to continue to that end.
And you use the word, �extermination.� The Palestinians, by the way had absolutely nothing to do with the Nazi holocaust, let�s get that straight now.
Way back in 1988, the PLO under leadership of Yasir Arafat recognized Israel�s right to exist! It is the current Israeli government that refuses to ever recognize any Palestinian State. And our President Bush keeps bringing this goal up of equal nations sharing the land as you heard in the recent State of the Union speech�-utter lip service!
�... you act as if these guys are the middle-eastern equivalent to Gandhi...� Please, save your hyperbolic theatrics and revisionist quotes for your clients in the courtroom.
�The Palestinians are directed and governed by thugs...� Fiji, the history book you are drawing from clearly needs some balance:
Shamir and Begin in their respective terrorist groups blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem and assassinated UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte. I'm sure you've heard of those �governing� names in Israeli history. Do their actions qualify as thuggish?
Shamir, as Prime Minister, is quoted as saying �Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat.� Shamir is quoted in 1991 as unabashedly justifying his early terrorist activities: �I have always said, I always say, I am proud of everything I have done in the past. I do not disown a single step... I am proud of what I have done and I do not owe an accounting to anyone.�
During the Lebanese war, Defense Minister, Sharon gave the orders for the murderous Phalange to enter the defenseless Palestinian refugee camps (Sabra & Shatila). Our U.S. President and U.S. Marines had guaranteed the safety of the Palestinian families. The civilian camps were directly under the watch of Israeli command posts and the Israeli Defense Forces had sealed the boundaries off. Israeli flares lighted the camps while the Phalange militias for 36 hours went about brutalizing and murdering the 700-800+ inhabitants (virtually all women, children, and the elderly). Many journalists recount the same story.
Fateful Triangle The United States, Israel & The Palestinians, by Noam Chomsky, 1999, South End Press. With a foreword by Edward W. Said.
Now, Prime Minister Sharon? Sounds pretty damn thuggish to me.
[Edited by Highwire Rob] |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
Highwire...I stopped reading your last post after the first two sentences...racist remark?...not hardly...more of a bias directed toward a sense of fashion...towel, diaper, whatever...read what I posted in its entire context and maybe your fragile sensibilities can be saved..I have no idea what race you are and it wouldn't matter...and Fiji ain't gonna back down just because you throw the "R" word out...that's bushleague...no pun intended...there are plenty of caucasian terrorists I could rail on...but they're not the issue...I said it before on this board (many times) and I'll repeat here in the hopes it may sink through your subconscious and you can wake up in the morning believing you arrived at the concept independently as you strike me as one of the types who will question and oppose anything to the extent that it's a defenseless minority opinion...the greatest horros we have seen in the past century are "horrors of pacifism"...period...call it appeasement, cowardice or good ol' fashioned pants pissing, but, inaction in the face of tyranny has cost far more lives than aggression in this past century...I ask that you dwell on the concept and study it real hard before you provide anymore knee-jerk reactionary, Cal-Berkley like, can't see the forest because I'm hugging a tree, tripe that will serve no purpose other than to strain the eyes of those who attempt to read it...
And Highwire, the shuttle crashed, shouldn't you be dancing a jig right now? |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
I couldn't resist this addendum...you have to react like a crybaby and solicit administrative censorship by claiming I and others made some racist remark...you have some nerve... your entire view point on this issue and those persons who you sympathize with is and are racist...and really racist...not just some trumped up whiney hiney complaint because you are at an intellectual loss dog-doo...
and I thought it was quite clear that I wasn't attaching the views of the palestinian authority to the entire class of people...I re-read my posts and it seems quite clear to me...stop trying to quash debate by claiming racism...it's so 1990's...if I'm a racist, someone should tell my wife and kids who are of a different race then myself...I will refer you to the Nugent essays for a further enumeration on this subject |
|
|
| gypsymofo60 |
quote:
sasca wrote:
You sick piece of shit. You call yourself a liberal? That is an admirable name. Don�t ever fucking associate yourself with it again.
France is currently doing its best to save the situation in Ivory Coast. I don�t know enough about the situation to judge the rights and wrongs. But have you halfwits even heard that such a place exists?
[Edited by sasca]
My Dear Sasca, The Ivory Coast has been raped, pillaged, plundered, and exploited by every man, and his dog since God said "Ok chaps the rest is up to you." France is doing it's best to save the situation there because France is beseiged by refugees, fugitives from justice, pseudo asylum seekers, and all the rest of the lying, cheating refuse of the world, and they are just plain sick of be a dumping ground. So preach it loud if you must Brother, from the lofty heights of Table Mountain, out over the shanty towns that still exist, but while you do try to remember; even we half wits understand the difference between turning a blind eye, only to wake up one sad morning in the future with an SS18 missile up your arse, and surgically removing a malignant tumour which should have been excised years ago. One more thing; why do the Jews get dragged into every single debate concerning world politics east of The Greek Islands all the way to Kashmir? In a true historical sense The Jewss have as much claim on Palesteine as the Arabs, and if I was subject to daily suicide bombings and the like, I too would be atoning for that in the most unambiguous terms. |
|
|
| gypsymofo60 |
"The meek shall inherit the earth"....all six feet of it above their rotting corpse. Pacifism is a luxury human beings can ill afford. You can come up with all the politicaly correct rhetoric at your disposal but it will never change one constant in the world from time immemorial, your enemy is probably laughing at you, while he is poised to cut your fucking head off. It's a lovely theory, full of warm fuzzy vibes, but you will always be the prey. Iraq's children, North Korean children, what about American children? What about your children? |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
Damnit GypsyMofo...get out of my head...and leave my thoughts alone |
|
|
| Highwire Rob |
quote:
... your entire view point on this issue and those persons who you sympathize with is and are racist... and really racist...
Racist? How can Semites be racist against one another? The Palestinians and Jews are Blood Brothers. For one to racially hate the other is self-hate.
Regarding your reference to wearing "towels," I said "racist-like" for a reason. And then I gave that reason: In this very thread and others, the despicable term "towel heads" was used to refer to Arabs. I'll put your usage down to pure coincidence then, with an abiding, equally fair, interest in applying minimalist terms to all national headwear.
Just for the record, while I respect Pacifists, I am not one, so I do not wish to be conveniently bundled under anyone's label of what it means to be one. Osama Bin Laden is my enemy and he has attacked our nation. He must be brought to our U.S. Justice. Sadam Hussein commits tyrannical acts of murder and violence in his region of the world. The United Nations, and only the United Nations--not some preemptive Bush posse--must bring him to United Nations Justice.
"... the shuttle crashed, shouldn't you be dancing a jig right now?"
Every right-wing affiliated American newspaper that catches anyone dancing for any reason in the Middle East will probably fulfill this story for you. I'm sure Richard Mellon Scaife, for one, will help you out Fiji. He and so many others with big media money love twisting newspaper content around with photos to suit their agenda.
[Edited by Highwire Rob] |
|
CHAT ROOM aka THE FUN HOUSE] [
RESTROOMS]