| November 11th, 2004 08:57 AM |
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| Gazza |
quote:
FotiniD wrote:
Alright Gazza, then I hope you'd feel the same about the american terrorism around the world as well...
See, in today's civilized world, on the one hand you got some acts that are called "terroristic" and on the other hand you got the same bloody acts but when they're done by the US, they're called "war on terrorism", "war for peace" and "setting the world free". On both accounts, innocent people are being killed. Killed.
I guess life has a different price around the world.
P.S. No pun or anything personal intended either of course, just a remark.
[Edited by FotiniD]
fair enough, but terrorists PLAN to kill innocent people because they dont have a strong enough political mandate to achieve their aims peacefully. Thats a subtle difference IMO, although I agree theres a few grey areas. I certainly dont think any side has a monopoly in common decency and where any organisation (be it a terrorist organisation or an individual in an army) CHOOSES to abuse that and kills innocent people DELIBERATELY when they can easily choose not to without any risk of harm to themselves then I'd class them all together. |
| November 11th, 2004 08:57 AM |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
Terrorsits kill innoncent civilians because it's the goal.
When the US or any western country kills innocent civilians it is a horrible accicent.
We go far out of our way to make sure that doesn't happen. But it does and it's unforunate.
For you to make a moral equivilance of the two is just outrageous.
Sorry Max, but I disagree 
What I'm trying to say here and the point I'm trying to make is that you can't trust what you are being told about a war. For instance, the American government is trying to convince American people that hey, we are the good guys, we're out to save the world and we do it cause we want to!
But I'm afraid that the truth is much darker than this. You see, I trust you are not naive enough to actually believe that a country as big as the US has such innocent motives behind a war, or that it sends out its troops to "free" the planet. (Then there's the whole discussion that nobody actually asked for the help, but whatever). Also, you can't have a war to have peace - these are two completely opposite things.
Finally, I'm also afraid that the US media are most to blame about this whole "saving the planet" image and "horrible accidents". If you could just watch the European press you might have a more objective look on things - admiteddly, not everywhere, but a more objective look indeed.
And regarding horrible accidents: when there was the war in Kossovo dear Max, bombs were thrown on civilian buses carrying people and children. And it wasn't done ONCE. The TV was full of children's heads, hands and legs tossed all around. I'm 100% positive the American TV showed NOTHING of that. The US said it was "a mistake". I'm sure you don't believe that troops such experienced as the US ones make such "mistakes" and indeed repeatedly. Just don't believe everything you're told, that's all I'm saying.
And give me one good reason why the vast majority of Europeans (and I'm talking people here, not governments) are against America's role as "policeman of the world". All those people can't be wrong Maxy. |
| November 11th, 2004 09:01 AM |
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| nankerphelge |
I looked at one of those Firebirds.
But I opted against it -- you drive one of those in Virginia and you will get carjacked by guys in flannel shirts with their sleeves cut off and yellowish insulated underwear tops underneath.
Happens every time!
And the United States did not go into Iraq to "terrorize" innocent civilians. Hussein did enough of that himself by using chemical weapons on entire populations (genocide with WMD -- does that get bonus points), dropping live people into shredders and raping women in front of their families. Any wonder why there was no big cry for help?
[Edited by nankerphelge] |
| November 11th, 2004 09:09 AM |
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| jb |
Yasser Arafat was a murderous scumbag who . essentially, was the father of mordern day terrorism..He was the mastermind behind the wave of terrorist hijackings in the early 70's, the murder of athletes at the 72 Olympics, thousands upon thousands terrorist attacks in Israel, the Achilles Laurel hijacking, and too many atrocities to list...he also blew the best opportunity he and his people had for an independent Palestinian state when Israel was coerced by president Clinton to make such concessions....as he has gotten older and sicker, some have viewed him as the champion of the palestinina cause and a kind , old man....the reality is he still was the mastermind behind suicide aatacks in Israel, refused to control terror organization s like Fatah, hamas, etc. and apparently stole untold millions from his people. Hopefully, he is rotting in hell with Hitler, Mussalini, and other villians of the 20th century....
and France's reaction----------------->http://sg.news.yahoo.com/041111/3/3ofkq.html
[Edited by jb] |
| November 11th, 2004 09:12 AM |
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| piratekeef |
I have the greatest respect for you, Gazza . But - I'd imagine, stating one is to "rot in hell" is a hell of statement, don't you think? It seems, you are definitely taking sides here.
I don't have any personal axe to grind in that conflict either. And - who counts the dead down there? I don't like to comment on the Palestinean/Isreali conlict here
because it's too complexe and its content has nothing to do with this board. I wont sit and mourn the demise of Arafat either - since I'm not personally involved
(thanks to God for it). Nobody wants to see innocent people getting killed - I myself don't like to see anybody getting killed (guilty or not or whatever).
The war on terrorism has become a bogus war long time ago. When it comes to the USA (which I really hold in high regard - for plenty of reasons), they now bomb "anywhere, man" - nowadays, especially in Iraque. Furthermore, they even arrested/returned Cat Stevens. I mean, what can I say?
piratekeef |
| November 11th, 2004 09:17 AM |
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| Maxlugar |
Fotini,
You are setting up a straw man with regards to our reasons for fighting the war on terrorism as "saving the planet". No one is saying we are doing that. What we are trying to do is prevent another 9/11 against us. Flipping hostile governments and helping their citizens go democratic will go a long way towards doing that.
Europe considers itself a counter balance against the US these days so I don't take much stock in what their press writes. Ingrates.
Sorry.
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| November 11th, 2004 09:18 AM |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
And the United States did not go into Iraq to "terrorize" innocent civilians. Hussein did enough of that himself by using chemical weapons on entire populations (genocide with WMD -- does that get bonus points), dropping live people into shredders and raping women in front of their families. Any wonder why there was no big cry for help?
Although PirateKeef pretty much sums some things up, I have to say Nanker, one atrocity made to heal another - just doesn't work.
Also, where is the famous proof of chemical/dangerous weapons that Iraq supposedly had and was willing to use? If I'm right it was never actually found? |
| November 11th, 2004 09:21 AM |
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| jb |
Thank Israel for taking out Iraq's nukes in 81...and believe me, once she (Israel) feels any threat from Iran's nuclear program, the best airforce in the world shall reign bombs on Tehran , god be willing.
http://www.local6.com/news/3908472/detail.html
[Edited by jb] |
| November 11th, 2004 09:27 AM |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
Fotini,
You are setting up a straw man with regards to our reasons for fighting the war on terrorism as "saving the planet". No one is saying we are doing that. What we are trying to do is prevent another 9/11 against us. Flipping hostile governments and helping their citizens go democratic will go a long way towards doing that.
Europe considers itself a counter balance against the US these days so I don't take much stock in what their press writes. Ingrates.
Sorry.
But, a preventive war? How can a preventive war actually help deal with the issue? It's like punishing a crime that hasn't even taken place yet! It's crazy! And can't you see how dangerous it can get (and it already has)?! What if Bush or any president wakes up one fine morning and thinks that France is a threat to the US or Holland, or Germany or Italy or Greece for that matter! You can invent reasons anytime!
What I think the US citizens fail to understand - and probably that's one of the reasons why they couldn't also understand why someone would attack NY (which I of course condemn, as any attack on human life should be) - is that the way the US government moves, it only gains more enemies. You may think you're helping people go democratic, while admist that you (as government always) are killing people and showing an arrogant "we rule the world" syndrome. This can only bring about worse problems!
And honestly, I think one of the major issues with this war, as with any war, was power & money, which combined, can bring about all sorts of hell, and they did.
Finally, regarding Europe, I wasn't just referring to the press, media and stuff, which of course have their own motivations... But the people - why would anyone turn against a government outside their own country if they had no reason?
[Edited by FotiniD] |
| November 11th, 2004 09:30 AM |
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| jb |
God bless the brave men and woman , past and present,who protect our freedom on this Veterans day. |
| November 11th, 2004 09:32 AM |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
jb wrote:
Thank Israel for taking out Iraq's nukes in 81...and believe me, once she (Israel) feels any threat from Iran's nuclear program, the best airforce in the world shall reign bombs on Tehran , god be willing.
Oh yeah JB, God willing... If there is such a thing as God, I'm absolutel sure he just LOVES bombs and death. More of it, come on! Let's bomb the planet, let's kill all, let's get them before they get us.
Stupid arrogant governments is one thing. People hating each other cause they're told to is a whole different story. Your apathy towards death just disgusts me JB. |
| November 11th, 2004 09:32 AM |
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| nankerphelge |
WMD were not found, although there is evidence from both sattelite intelligence and the testimony of former Iraqi secret police that such weapons did exist, were dismantled shortly before the war, and were transported to Syria and Lebbanon.
But that really isn't the point -- everyone saw the evidence beforehand -- even some European countries believed that Saddam still had weapons programs -- hell, a number actually used the UN Oil for Food program to supply and fund ol' Saddam's programs in the 1990s after the UN inspectors were kicked out!
I find it unfortunate but not surprising that so many in the world think the US is no better than the terrorists.
By the way: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/11/arafat_the_monster/
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| November 11th, 2004 09:37 AM |
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| FotiniD |
And that article you sent, Nanker, reads:
"In a better world, the PLO chief would have met his end on a gallows, hanged for mass murder much as the Nazi chiefs were hanged at Nuremberg. In a better world, the French president would not have paid a visit to the bedside of such a monster. In a better world, George Bush would not have said, on hearing the first reports that Arafat had died, "God bless his soul.""
In a better world, the US wouldn't be today's Roman Empire with a perfect idiot leading it, in a better world children in buses wouldn't be bombed, in a better world no wars would be held on "supposed evidence" that were MIRACULOUSLY lost and in a better world reality wouldn't be manipulated so easily.
If Arafat was a "monster", I can't find words bad enough to describe today's american president.
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| November 11th, 2004 09:38 AM |
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| jb |
quote:
FotiniD wrote:
Oh yeah JB, God willing... If there is such a thing as God, I'm absolutel sure he just LOVES bombs and death. More of it, come on! Let's bomb the planet, let's kill all, let's get them before they get us.
Stupid arrogant governments is one thing. People hating each other cause they're told to is a whole different story. Your apathy towards death just disgusts me JB.
"god be willing" was said in sarcasm as you are well away that is what Arab/Muslim terrorists say before they committ some atrocious act...I am not apthetic towards death ....but I am not willing to sit back and take a chance that some terror group or government will get a hold of a nuclear device and make 9/11 look like a day in the park.....we live in a new age where our very existence is threatned by these groups who are willing to die in order to destroy us....Preemption is the only viable course of action we have in order to save the world from these evil-doers. |
| November 11th, 2004 09:39 AM |
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| Joey |
quote:
jb wrote:
God bless the brave men and woman , past and present,who protect our freedom on this Veterans day.
For My Baby !!!! :
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| November 11th, 2004 09:44 AM |
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| Maxlugar |
We have no choice but to strike them before they strike us.
Osama's strong horse vs weak horse theory is playing itself out nicely. We are showing them who the strong horse is finally. Responding weakly to attacks against us during the 90's gave us 9/11. Since 9/11 we are taking them out and not one terrorst attack has happened since. This is making matter worse, Fotini?
Also, It's funny how you claim the people of Iraq don't want us to give them democracy, or help them as you put it. All people want democracy. A recent poll of Iraqi's showed 75% want it.
Of course they never asked for it. Saddam was busy cutting out tongues. Would you speak out?
[Edited by Maxlugar] |
| November 11th, 2004 09:44 AM |
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| Gazza |
quote:
piratekeef wrote:
I have the greatest respect for you, Gazza . But - I'd imagine, stating one is to "rot in hell" is a hell of statement, don't you think? It seems, you are definitely taking sides here.
my point isnt about taking sides at all in any of the conflicts you mentioned, Frank.. I dont have a political "side" to my argument. (plus I never mentioned the US or anyone else in my original post. Other people chose to. Thats their choice. Not mine.)
I certainly dont apologise for wishing death on terrorists due to a deep, personal hatred for them. I do,unfortunately have personal experience of what theyre like and wouldnt blame anyone who has similar experiences to feel the same way.
[Edited by Gazza] |
| November 11th, 2004 09:45 AM |
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| Joey |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
We have no choice but to strike them before they strike us.
Osama's strong horse vs weak horse theory is playing itslef out nicely. We are showing them who the strong horse is finally. Responding weakly to attacks against us during the 90's gave us 9/11. Since 9/11 we are taking them out and not one terrorst attack has happened since. This is making matter worse, Fotini?
Also, It's funny how you claim the people of Iraq don't want us to give them democracy, or help them as you put it. All people want democracy. A recent poll of Iraqi's showed 75% want it.
Of course they never asked for it. Saddam was busy cutting out tongues. Would you speak out?
I would like to nuzzle you !
W- W- W- W- W- What ?!?! ......Oh , SURE !!! :
" NEW WHO ALBUM – WHO2 will not be a concept album. That is, in itself, a concept for me. Roger and I meet in mid December to play what we have written. If we move ahead from there, we may have a CD ready to release in the spring. My working-title for the project - ‘Who2’ - is only partly tongue-in-cheek. If the recording works out we will tour with the usual band in the first half of 2005.
THE BOY WHO HEARD MUSIC is a short story I finished some time ago. It will not be the title of the next Who album. It is not autobiographical. It is a continuation of the LIFEHOUSE chronicles, and features the LIFEHOUSE METHOD (music generated from data gathered from various individuals). I hope to develop this as an animation feature with music in the second half of 2005. I would also like to see a concert version. With everything LIFEHOUSE-related I know I must dream on. "
" Stones Rule You Friggin Bastards ! "
JACKY TOWNSHEND ! ™ |
| November 11th, 2004 09:46 AM |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
jb wrote:
"god be willing" was said in sarcasm as you are well away that is what Arab/Muslim terrorists say before they committ some atrocious act...I am not apthetic towards death ....but I am not willing to sit back and take a chance that some terror group or government will get a hold of a nuclear device and make 9/11 look like a day in the park.....we live in a new age where our very existence is threatned by these groups who are willing to die in order to destroy us....Preemption is the only viable course of action we have in order to save the world from these evil-doers.
I think this is an interesting read, by Michel Chossudovsky, Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa :
------------------------------------------------------
"Since the Cold War era, Washington has consciously supported Osama bin Laden, while at same time placing him on the FBI's "most wanted list" as the World's foremost terrorist.
While the Mujahideen are busy fighting America's war in the Balkans and the former Soviet Union, the FBI --operating as a US based Police Force- is waging a domestic war against terrorism, operating in some respects independently of the CIA which has --since the Soviet-Afghan war-- supported international terrorism through its covert operations.
In a cruel irony, while the Islamic jihad --featured by the Bush Adminstration as "a threat to America"-- is blamed for the terrorist assaults on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, these same Islamic organisations constitute a key instrument of US military-intelligence operations in the Balkans and the former Soviet Union."
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And (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/):
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"Initially, Iraq advanced far into Iranian territory, but was driven back within months. By mid-1982, Iraq was on the defensive against Iranian human-wave attacks. The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism."
------------------------------------------------------
All that, regarding what we were saying before. Isn't it fascinating how you can turn to No. 1 Terrorist of the World from one day to the next?
So, what reality do you chose to believe? The on the US government believes today, the one it believed yesterday or the one it will believe tomorrow?
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| November 11th, 2004 09:46 AM |
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| piratekeef |
"How can a preventive war actually help deal with the issue? It's like punishing a crime that hasn't even taken place yet! It's crazy!"
Yes - I completely agree with it!!! |
| November 11th, 2004 09:47 AM |
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| nankerphelge |
Between a leader that sits back and does nothing as the threats build (or worse yet, supports it), and one willing to eliminate those threats before they can act -- I am happy to take the latter. It is terrible that war harms the innocent, but allowing the enemy to continue to plan and attack our innocent is not an option in my mind.
You can label me, my country, and my President however you wish. I believe we are doing the right thing. |
| November 11th, 2004 09:49 AM |
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| jb |
We(America) are a freedom loving people who saved Europe from tyranny on many occassions...We (America) are called upon by god to free millions of oppressed people from the chains of terror and let them taste the sweet flavor of democracy......We(America) are the shinning city on a hill whose best days are to come. |
| November 11th, 2004 09:49 AM |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
Between a leader that sits back and does nothing as the threats build (or worse yet, supports it), and one willing to eliminate those threats before they can act -- I am happy to take the latter. It is terrible that war harms the innocent, but allowing the enemy to continue to plan and attack our innocent is not an option in my mind.
You can label me, my country, and my President however you wish. I believe we are doing the right thing.
My intention is not to label people. That's my point - people have nothing to divide them. We're all bloody same, we breath, we eat, we sleep, we talk. Blood runs in the veins.
So I think we'll agree to disagree - I just don't see any logic in your President's actions. |
| November 11th, 2004 09:49 AM |
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| Zeeta |
A truly awful thread in everyway possible; political bile from all sides - Gazza pls close |
| November 11th, 2004 09:51 AM |
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| Maxlugar |
Joey,
I suggest you buy Being Mick immediately. Or do you have it already? There is a scene where Petey Boy is in the studio WAILING away when Mick arrives. He is laying down his tracks for "Gun" on "Goddess".
SHEEEET!
The version on the album seriously watered down the sound of those chords but on the DVD it's raw and loud!
I was impressed....
Jeff Beckily yours,
MACKY! |
| November 11th, 2004 09:51 AM |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
Zeeta wrote:
A truly awful thread in everyway possible; political bile from all sides - Gazza pls close
Why close Zeeta? Can't we just agree to disagree?
How democratic is closing a thread, i.e. stopping a discussion?
Ok, I know I've said no more politics for me on board. But hey, politics, like music, are a part of life. And a board is not a sterile place - you get to talk about other stuff as well apart from the music.
As long as it doesn't get personal and we can hold a civilized discussion, I don't think the thread should be closed. The whole essence of democracy is respecting the right of people to hold different opinions and express them, if I'm not wrong. |
| November 11th, 2004 09:54 AM |
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| Nellcote |
Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead!
Praise Be Allah! |
| November 11th, 2004 09:56 AM |
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| jb |
quote:
FotiniD wrote:
Why close Zeeta? Can't we just agree to disagree?
How democratic is closing a thread, i.e. stopping a discussion?
Ok, I know I've said no more politics for me on board. But hey, politics, like music, are a part of life. And a board is not a sterile place - you get to talk about other stuff as well apart from the music.
As long as it doesn't get personal and we can hold a civilized discussion, I don't think the thread should be closed. The whole essence of democracy is respecting the right of people to hold different opinions and express them, if I'm not wrong.
 |
| November 11th, 2004 09:57 AM |
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| Bloozehound |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
We have no choice but to strike them before they strike us.
your goddamned right!
It's just ashame we're subduing these pricks before they can nuke Hollywood
Would it be a horrible thing to see Sarandon and Bab's(Steisand) go bone meltdown ala T2, I think not
j/k
no I'm not
bhahahah! |
| November 11th, 2004 09:59 AM |
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| telecaster |
The funny thing about the 2001 Firebird/TA is it has the same engine as the Corvette. You need to buy a $450
comupter chip to reprogam the engine to outperform the Vette and anything else outside of a $150k Ferrari
Very simple
GM didn't want the TA to blow past the Vette for marketing reasons
"Here's my strategy on the Cold War: We win, they lose." - Ronald Reagan
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
"Of the four wars in my lifetime none came about because the U. S. was too strong." - Ronald Reagan
"I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandment's would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U. S. Congress." - Ronald Reagan
"The taxpayer: That's someone who works for the federal government but doesn't have to take the civil service examination." - Ronald Reagan
"Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."- Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan
"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first." - Ronald Reagan
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." - Ronald Reagan
"Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many rewards, if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book." - Ronald Reagan
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