| April 15th, 2004 07:27 AM |
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| Mathijs |
Whether it was right to attack Iraq or not, is not important anymore (found weapons of mass destruction: 0, and counting). The important part is the way it was attacked, and the way Iraq is attacked –the big plan behind it. Problem is, Mr. Bush did not seem to have a plan. The attack and occupation was and is mainly done by Americans. Problem: Arabs –thus Iraqi’s too – hate Americans by heart. Did you see the four Americans burned, mutilated, dragged around the streets and finally hung onto a bridge? That, unfortunately, seems to be the general attitude towards Americans. Attacking without the support of the UN was foolish, no matter how much you agree or disagree with the point of view of the UN. So, Saddam’s power was torn down within the expected two weeks - then what? The US has about 200.000 troupes, of which roughly 100.000 are fighting soldiers. They work in three shifts, so roughly there’s about 30.000 soldiers (who are not even the good trained marines) on the streets, trying to hold peace and stability in a country the size of France, with 20 million people hating the Americans and at least 10 different tribes fighting each other for power. Good luck to you. The US expected to be treated as liberators, while they are treated now as occupiers -occupiers of a Muslim country.
In my humble opinion the situation today is an international affair, and should be handled like that. Now, the US has managed to move itself in a position where it has no friends anymore, just enemies. One attack was enough to have the people of Spain choose another government. I will tell you: one dead Dutch soldier is enough to have the Dutch troops retreat from Iraq. I have said it before, and I say it again: as long as there are Americans “occupying” (in the eye of fanatic Muslims that is) an Arab country we will see attacks like 911, Madrid, Casablanca and Bali. You can’t fight terrorists, sadly the only way to stop it is to give want they want: no Americans in Arab countries and Israel should retreat from the West Bank and Gaza strip. Fly one million international troops over to Iraq in order to secure the stability, and have an Iraqi government elected. This will prove the only way. Until then, I will be waiting for another attack by terrorists with hundreds of innocent dead –in Detroit, Boston, New York, Houston, Amsterdam, Paris, London, Rome, Berlin, Stockholm …..
The general consensus is that Saddam needed to be removed, as he was evil power. I firmly believed and believe that the evil unleashed by attacking Iraq is far bigger than Saddam’s threat to the world ever was.
Mathijs
Ps I would like to state beforehand: I certainly am NOT anti-American, as I feel we're in this mess together.
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| April 15th, 2004 07:47 AM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Not even that is enough to change my mind about Kerry.
The Bon Jovi thing...not what Mathy said.
[Edited by Sir Stonesalot] |
| April 15th, 2004 09:31 AM |
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| Joey |
IRAQ is EXACTLY like VIETNAM for three reasons :
1. ) There is NO plan for Victory !
2. ) We do NOT understand the enemy !
3. ) There is a " Credibility Gap " with this administration because we really do NOT know what in the Hell we are doing over there !!!!!!!!!!
" I see a DRAFT in the Future Ronnie .................................and You ?!?! "
D. J. Jersee Joe and the Fresh Prince of Boca Raton !
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V
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[ Edited by Kid Joe ]
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[Edited by Joey] |
| April 15th, 2004 09:50 AM |
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| FotiniD |
I've only read a couple of posts on this thread, cause last time the talk got around American politics I promised myself I wouldn't talk about this over here; there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding and intolerance going on - after all, we're here to talk about the Stones, not politics, and I stick to that.
However, I couldn't hold myself, so here I go. I won't tire you long, just one or two general thoughts.
1) People seem to understand that there is a certain amount of "hate" towards the Americans by people in Iraq. What people don't understand are the reasons behind that. Because nobody wakes up one morning and says "ok, from now on I'm gonna hate the Americans". Bombings kill people, kill men, women and children, and when this thing is going on for no apparent reason for ages now (now with Iraq, previously with Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and so on), you don't gain fans, you gain enemies. Desparate enemies. Terrorism is of course condemned, but I don't understand Americans going "oh what did we do and they hate us?"
2) The role of the international sheriff that America has taken over the past few years is contributing to the above. What business does America have in a country that's thousands of miles away, on the other side of the planet? I think that opinions that is done "to protect people and fight terrorism" can only be trusted by children (and I even doubt that). We don't live in the ideal world where there's one big good country that wants to protect the rest of the poor little countries. We live in a capitalistic society where America is a huge market and would love things like oil, profit and so on. Inventing reasons for war seems to be the easiest thing nowadays and mind you, the recent "weapons of mass destruction" is the evidence that the real motives are not the ones promoted by Bush and co. What saddens me is that people actually buy his story. "We're the good ones and they're the bad ones", simplistic to hell.
Ok, so this is my opinion, flame all you want (since I do expect this from some people, as done in the past) but that's what I believe based on facts, not my idea of how things are in my imagination. |
| April 15th, 2004 10:05 AM |
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| nankerphelge |
Your interpretation of the facts.
My interpretation of the facts is that many in Iraq do not hate the US -- the polls I've seen over the last few months indicate that most in Iraq realize they are better off today than they were with Saddam. Although most they don't care for the "occupation".
As for the US being in Iraq, this Administration has said that it is going on the offensive -- that it is not sitting back as it did in the 1990s. The people that want to do the US harm hide behind other countries and the Muslim religion -- it would be wonderful if those countries and peaceful Muslims would take out their own trash -- but they don't or can't. That is no reason for us to sit around waiting!
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| April 15th, 2004 10:12 AM |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
My interpretation of the facts is that many in Iraq do not hate the US -- the polls I've seen over the last few months indicate that most in Iraq realize they are better off today than they were with Saddam.
Yes, but who is holding these polls? Who publishes them? I don't doubt a certain percentage of people will be better off getting rid of the previous regime, but to what cost? I don't think Mr. Bush had the welfare of the Iraqi in mind while bombing. And I don't think either that families who lost people are happy with the way things were done. Would you?
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
-- it would be wonderful if those countries and peaceful Muslims would take out their own trash -- but they don't or can't. That is no reason for us to sit around waiting!
See, I think that's where the problem is. I don't believe that there are politicians with such "high moral" opinions - that is, to go and take out the trash of other countries. I can't get myself to believe that there are people like this in the world - I mean you can see it in your everyday life, then take that to a worldwide level. There's just not such "innocence" if I may use this word. And if America really wanted to solve other countries' problems (much as I'd find that paternalistic and kind of super-ego imposing, but whatever) then why does it chose to "solve" problems only in countries rich in oil etc? Why doesn't it decide to "help the world" in a peaceful manner?
I think it's obvious the only real answer to that is money. And I don't blame the Americans for that as people, but their government - if the Americans are to blame for anything is perhaps the fact that they don't seem (from the impression I get from the media and internet) to question or doubt for what comes off the government's mouth. |
| April 15th, 2004 10:22 AM |
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| nankerphelge |
We went after them in Afghanistan -- nothing much there but rocks!
We are still in the Balkans -- ain't much oil there!
Yeah Iraq has oil -- and Saddam used the money for his own ends -- and it was not a good thing.
You don't buy the morality argument, that's fine. I don't either -- in my mind, we went into Iraq because Saddam was a threat and he refused to cooperate with the UN -- the very entity that so many people now want to place their confidence -- the very entity that was corrupting the food-for-oil deal.
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| April 15th, 2004 10:30 AM |
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| caro |
>We went after them in Afghanistan -- nothing much there but rocks!
ahem. I suppose you heard of that pipeline project that could only be build through China (oh no, they're too powerful), Russia (same) or Afghanistan.
This being said, I don't think either that the war in Iraq (or Afganistan) was mainly about oil.
>the very entity that was corrupting the food-for-oil deal
I'll wait to hear independent reports on that. The amount of people trying to ruin the UN's credibility is frightening.
[Edited by caro] |
| April 15th, 2004 10:46 AM |
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| nankerphelge |
Are you talking about the Unocal Bridas gas pipeline??
The project that got the Clinton Administration to climb into bed with the Taliban back in the 1990s?? That never went anywhere!
And as for independent confirmation of the UN's corruption of the oil-for-food program, just wait until ol' Kofi appoints his investigating commission -- that'll be an objective eye!!
Seriously, there is already plenty of evidence of problems -- rotting food, up to a billion in unaccounted for funds!! But we shouldn't question it?? Okay -- the world can question every fucking fart of George W. Bush since 9/11, but we can't question a corrupt UN program?
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| April 15th, 2004 10:52 AM |
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| LadyJane |
Okay...I've got to jump in. Bearing in mind that I'm not a huge fan of President Bush, it is my opinion that the USA pull out of EVERYWHERE and TAKE ALL OF OUR MONEY WITH US. No more bailing out the sorry asses who turn on us. It's so "hip" to be Anti-American that it sickens me.
Put our fine troops at all the borders to assure WE are safe.
LJ. |
| April 15th, 2004 10:53 AM |
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| Joey |
I say , " Sell Corn ! "
W- W- W- W- W- What ?!?!?!
J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-J- J- J- J- J- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Jo- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe- Joe-
Stuttering Jo Jo ! |
| April 15th, 2004 11:19 AM |
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| sirmoonie |
Attica! Attica! Attica! |
| April 15th, 2004 11:29 AM |
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| caro |
>Are you talking about the Unocal Bridas gas pipeline??
The project that got the Clinton Administration to climb into bed with the Taliban back in the 1990s?? That never went anywhere!
Just because Unocal said they officially give it up doesn't mean the idea is buried. I seemed to recall a very "open" statement, just did a google search to find it : "UNOCAL company officials said late last year (1998) they were abandoning the project because of the need to cut costs in the Caspian region and because of the repeated failure of efforts to resolve the long civil conflict in Afghanistan." One reason for the war was obviously to end this endless civil conflict. It didn't really work until now... But if the political situation becomes stable, I don't think we'll have to wait long until the pipeline project emerges again. Again, I'm not saying this was the main reason behind the Afghanistan war.
>Okay -- the world can question every fucking fart of George W. Bush since 9/11, but we can't question a corrupt UN program?
You can question all you want -- but this:
"the very entity that was corrupting the food-for-oil deal"
didn't sound like a question to me. |
| April 15th, 2004 11:30 AM |
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| Snappy McJack |
quote:
LadyJane wrote:
Okay...I've got to jump in. Bearing in mind that I'm not a huge fan of President Bush, it is my opinion that the USA pull out of EVERYWHERE and TAKE ALL OF OUR MONEY WITH US. No more bailing out the sorry asses who turn on us. It's so "hip" to be Anti-American that it sickens me.
Put our fine troops at all the borders to assure WE are safe.
LJ.
I think that you made Joey go  for the millionth time with that comment!
Later he'll probably  and get to the  , and still have the energy to
P.S. Joey is a bad influence  |
| April 15th, 2004 11:55 AM |
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| Joey |
" P.S. Joey is a bad influence "
W- W- W- W- What ?!?!
http://www.strangecosmos.com/
Stuttering Jack !
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| April 15th, 2004 12:01 PM |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm |
| April 15th, 2004 12:10 PM |
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| Joey |
The Key to Happiness Lay HERE :
  
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| April 15th, 2004 02:10 PM |
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| Jumping Jack |
Stop and think where we would be now with Gore in office.
Does Kerry have any more conviction, any priniples, or backbone than Gore? He's looking after himself and all the damn trial lawyers.
As for our supposed friends (France, Germany, Russia), their only interest seemed to be their own financial well being.
The UN is terribly corrupt. The US should pull out and let the rest of the countries pay for their own party or continue to let the terrorists pay for them. |
| April 15th, 2004 02:22 PM |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
quote:
Jumping Jack wrote:
The UN is terribly corrupt.
Well they're in good company...so isn't Earth. But then again no big deal...Earth always was corrupt. And I suppose it always will be. |
| April 15th, 2004 03:01 PM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
True enough TTM. Although I don't think it's the earth that is corrupt...it's the humans inhabiting the earth.
Look, ANYTHING that involves huge amounts of money is corrupt at some level.
Is the UN corrupt?...you betcha. Is the Bush Administration corrupt?....you betcha. Will the new Iraqi gov't be corrupt?...you betcha. Is professional sports corrupt?...you betcha. Would the Kerry Administartion be corrupt?...you betcha. Is Exxon corrupt?...you betcha. Are the Rolling Stones corrupt?...you betcha.
I suppose that it is all a matter of what level of corruption one is willing to accept. |
| April 15th, 2004 03:12 PM |
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| Joey |
" I suppose that it is all a matter of what level of corruption one is willing to accept. "
How's your liver ?!?!?!
Got a Spare ?
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| April 15th, 2004 03:19 PM |
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| Gazza |
Glencar wrote>Mick backed the Tories back in the 80's. Not as liberal as you thought.
No he didn't! There were two general elections in Britain during the 80's (1983 and 1987, both won by the Conservatives under Thatcher) and Mick has been quoted in both years as saying he was definitely NOT a Conservative supporter by ANY stretch of the imagination.
He wasn't even living in the UK at the time of those elections, either.
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| April 15th, 2004 04:11 PM |
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| glencar |
Gazza, I think I read that he supported Thatcher in a Playboy magazine interview around the time of She's The Boss. He didn't quite say he'd voted for her but the gist was that he liked what she was doing. |
| April 15th, 2004 04:14 PM |
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| glencar |
Bon Jovi's hittin' the road with Kerry? LOL It worked wonders for Gore! |
| April 15th, 2004 04:24 PM |
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| Nellcote |
SS: As CEO of the Proper English Enforcement (PEE) I must advise you have exceeded the use of the phrase "betcha"
by two occasions. Furthermore, it is unclear how this phrase has come into the discussion, as a definition of this phrase could not be found. Please consider that PEE is a wholly for profit foundation determined to bring proper language usage to a wide audience. Repetitive phrases tend to demphasize the thrust of a statement. While PEE understands that it is important to make one's point, we suggest to use more descriptive, non repetitive method to do so, using words which have defintion.
We thank you for your consideration to PEE's standards.
This has been an advisement from PEE.
PEE accepts all donations towards it's worldwide foundation.
"Without PEE, where would we be?"
We now return you to regular programming. |
| April 15th, 2004 04:37 PM |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
WAR IS A RACKET. plain and simple. Voting between Bush or Kerry is like voting for a noose or gas. What a fucking zoo.
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| April 15th, 2004 04:41 PM |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
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| April 15th, 2004 04:52 PM |
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| glencar |
quote:
Ten Thousand Motels wrote:
WAR IS A RACKET. plain and simple. Voting between Bush or Kerry is like voting for a noose or gas. What a fucking zoo.
Well, in that case I'll vote for the one who won't let us get attacked. I ain't buying Kerry's BS. The guy's a phony from birth. |
| April 15th, 2004 05:54 PM |
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| Gazza |
>Gazza, I think I read that he supported Thatcher in a Playboy magazine interview around the time of She's The Boss. He didn't quite say he'd voted for her but the gist was that he liked what she was doing.
thanks for the info. Thats interesting. I guess its quite possible to admire some parts of the old bird's policies without actually endorsing her party.
She's the Boss then..I guess that would be spring '85 then. Maybe he had a mid-term crisis of faith or something. LOL
I certainly dont recall that being reported here, though and I've never seen it quoted as such. The music press in the UK is so left-orientated that for a musician, especially one of Jagger's fame, to have admitted supporting the Conservatives would have been reported in a way as if he'd admitted to being a Nazi or a paedophile.
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| April 15th, 2004 06:04 PM |
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| Lavendar |
I agree with JUMACFLY We could [US]spend our money helping to train countries -help themselves, Your looking at research, medicine, manufacturing and probably alot of other things. But as we appear now, as a very uneducated country. The presumed warnings of terrorist attacks [911] and noone had any balls to stop and check it out. POLITICS has gotten out of control. Lets rise up and fite for truth and honesty! UNITE! So noone vote then what! Will they elect someone for us ? Its almost like "BIG BROTHER" is here [1984} Its such a sad state of affairs? Bush should be very embarassed, he sounded like a repetitive as.....e Anyone could have answered the way he did! We are in Irag until they can fix themselves. WTF A new positive thread is needed on how to improve relations. Joey and Snappy Mcjack have a few answers!LOL :} |
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