| November 8th, 2005 10:01 AM |
|
|
| L&A |
quote:
Yet I have yet to see one European Muslim cleric denounce this shit! Have you? Where are they? Why are they not shouting from the rooftops,"You are trying to highjack a great religion and we won't let you!"
Read the papers  |
| November 8th, 2005 10:38 AM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
Mathjis you may be surprized to hear that I agree with just about everything you said. Except of course the part about the New York Times. That paper is privatly owned by a family of known liberals and they distort the hell out of the truth to suit their political agenda. Just like liberals like to accuse Fox News of doing for the conservatives in the USA. Even when I was an avowed liberal myself I knew that the NYT was going to give me their biased take on anything politically related.
I do agree you about the cause of the riots inside France. I know they had nothing to do with Islam as such,but that does not mean that Islamists are not ready to jump in and take full advantage of the fact that the riots are happening in the first place. They fuel the fire of discontent,and then they exploit the discontented. Hell all you have to do is look at the situation inside Gaza and the West Bank to know that they readily recruit from these people that feel that they have no hope.
As for throwing salvos as some other poster suggested. Well that is just not true at all. I just see what is happening around the world and how Islam is always,and I mean always,at the root of most of violent turns of events that the world has been witness to lately.
To deny that the Islam problem is real is nothing more than a form of appeasment. A great man once said,"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last."
-Sir Winston Churchill.
Would you call Churchill a Nazi because he was wise enough to the discuss the problem of Nazis before Chamberlain would dare broach it?
As for the Imams and clerics speaking out against the riots. If that has happened I certainly haven't seen much of it. I don't just get my news from the American press either. If they are speaking out good for them. They need to do so a bit louder,and preach it inside every mosque inside Europe and around the world. Do you think that is likely to happen?
Finally,like Jummy,I too am sick of the whole Europe vs the USA deal. This problem is one that we all share now,and it is neither the USA's nor Europe's fault. Rather it can be layed directly at the feet of those that are spreading hate and calling it religion. That is not Bush or Blair. It is Islamists steeped in the law of Sharia avowing to kill all the infidels. I would wager that every poster on this forum would be considered an infidel to these radicals. As would all of our families.
Riffy |
| November 8th, 2005 11:14 AM |
|
|
| Moonisup |
Riffy wrote:
"Finally,like Jummy,I too am sick of the whole Europe vs the USA deal. This problem is one that we all share now,and it is neither the USA's nor Europe's fault. Rather it can be layed directly at the feet of those that are spreading hate and calling it religion"
Very good observation, and I agree fully with it |
| November 8th, 2005 01:24 PM |
|
|
| glencar |
I read the NY Times every day precisely because of its international coverage. But I know going in that its heavily biased. When I lived elsewhere in the country, the local paper still covered int'l events to some extent. Local TV news is pretty horrible but even they'll cover things like the French Islamofascist riots or the Pakistan earthquake. |
| November 8th, 2005 02:09 PM |
|
|
| justforyou |
Crocodiles are ancient beasts, quite capable of finding food for themselves.
As the societies mature, so must their religions. Christianity has lost alot of influence in Europe since the industrialisation. Islam will probably have the same destiny if the moslem people get better living conditions. |
| November 8th, 2005 02:32 PM |
|
|
| glencar |
Which is what Iraq is all about. |
| November 8th, 2005 03:21 PM |
|
|
| the good |
I think its useful to distinguish betweem muslim civil unrest, which seems to be tied to economic issues such as unemployment, and terrorism, which is tied to radical islamic ideology. As a long term solution to the issue of civil unrest, I think that the French socialist state has to be totally dismantled, starting with large tax cuts, across the board, to stimulate the economy and produce jobs. Before all the libs here jump down my throat, yes, tax cuts do reduce unemployment. They work every time they are tried.
Easing unemployment would help with aspects of French civil unrest, but it would of course do nothing to deal with the more global problem of terrorism. As we all know, Bin laden and his ilk are wealthy and educated men. Interestingly, the French police and military have been quite good at tracking down terrorists. Maybe if the French politicians were as effective in combating unemployment, many of France's problems would be solved. |
| November 8th, 2005 03:57 PM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
quote:
the good wrote:
I think its useful to distinguish between Muslim civil unrest, which seems to be tied to economic issues such as unemployment, and terrorism, which is tied to radical islamic ideology. As a long term solution to the issue of civil unrest, I think that the French socialist state has to be totally dismantled, starting with large tax cuts, across the board, to stimulate the economy and produce jobs. Before all the libs here jump down my throat, yes, tax cuts do reduce unemployment. They work every time they are tried.
Easing unemployment would help with aspects of French civil unrest, but it would of course do nothing to deal with the more global problem of terrorism. As we all know, Bin laden and his ilk are wealthy and educated men. Interestingly, the French police and military have been quite good at tracking down terrorists. Maybe if the French politicians were as effective in combating unemployment, many of France's problems would be solved.
Very good point my man. Plus it's important to remember that as long as these problems exist the Muslim neighborhoods are a very fertile breeding ground for groups like al Queda.
It's fine to welcome immigrants to your country,but to then to give them no jobs or any future chance at a decent job is to set your country up for exactly what is happening in France. In the USA we have a huge immigrant problem,but at least these Mexican immigrants can get a job. Not so in France. That is socialism at it's worst,and that is how socialism has always worked throughout history.
When everyone is equal then everyone is equally miserable.
Riffhard |
| November 8th, 2005 07:37 PM |
|
|
| glencar |
I saw something on one of our more liberal TV stations the other day about how France doesn't ahve any blacks in power. The unemployment rate is astronomical amongst younger black men in the suburbs. I must say, I felt much better about this country's prospects after seeing the report. |
| November 8th, 2005 08:44 PM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
I am curious as to what our French ROers think about this take on the situation over there. This is from a French woman who has witnessed much and,as such,has much to say. It's a bit long,but very informative to those of us who are not there. Is this lady being straight up honest here? Any comments form Jumca,MW,and other French people here would be appreciated. Again stay safe over there guys.
___________________________________________________________
May I ask you to pray for us in France, just ordinary decent people who do no have the means to go elsewhere? I do not sleep much. The situation is frightening. I have already lived this kind of events in my life, and I have been many times so anxious about members of my family who lived in Zimbabwe.
I love my country; I have so much sorrow in my heart, so much revolt.
Do not think our media are very informative.
1) To night, [one nights ago, November 7 - admin] one state channel, FR3, has decided not to speak about burned cars. No fire reported=no fire at all. Most people don’t even know that dozens and dozens of little churches all over France have been set on fire during these past years. Our media don’t like the Catholics and as they despise the ordinary French people, they did not want us to put 2 and 2 together.
2) Some nights ago, “youths” threw Molotov cocktails in a bus. People scrambled outside. A poor handicapped woman was sprayed with petrol by the very same thoughtful “youths” and was saved by the bus chauffeur. The poor lady was badly burned.
FR3 channel showed the lady’s 2 daughters, Yaël and Anastasie; they were European and wore no Islamic scarf. They expressed their gratitude to the courageous chauffeur. On another channel, well there was only one daughter… whose name was Fadella and who wore an Islamic scarf! She said that her mother (??) was saved by the courageous “youths”. What do you make of this? Was Fadella an actress? You bet!
It is so insulting for us! But our media are leftist and that’s it.
We had to wait 7 days before they spoke about “Islam”. All the while, our Jak Ben Chirak remained silent. When he deigned to speak, it was to say that we, French people, were responsible, because we have not fully accepted the “immigrants”. I do not know where this man is living! He does not have to go in the metro or to take a bus. He lives in the quartiers chics, like most politicians.
The Islamic immigrants from Maghreb and Africa scorned France and were far too superior to deign to accept us…
When we dare to grumble, when we dare to murmur that Islam is a religion of death, that we do not want to become an Islamic republic, the media and the politicians also scorned us saying we were racist and fascist and anti-arab, and islamophobic, and anti-Semitic. But our money was not scorned upon. (we have to pay to sustain the newspapers which would collapse if it were not for our forced contribution. I pay for abortions, even if I disagree; I have to pay for communist and Trotskyite newspapers, even if I loath them; I have to pay for bad comedians who have no talent)
We pay, with our taxes, scores of “associations” full of communist-islamics and we just have to shut our mouths and say amen. Well, not “amen”; amen is not politically acceptable.
Villepin does not see what I would call “the Islamic touch”in the riots; it was very much lost in translation. The man needs to have his head examined: We all heard : “Allah Akbar! It is Jerusalem here! C’est Jerusalem ici! Attends, on va les péter! On va leur péter la gueule! On va tous les niquer à mort! Allah Akbar!”
The barbarians are poor victims. Right is left, left is right, bad is good and good is bad.
A fortnight ago, Sarkozy and the police had broken up an important network of arms and drugs dealers in the same banlieues. The banlieues live on underground economy : prostitutions, arms and drugs. Do you see a relation with islamic networks? Heaven forbid!
On the 11 November, the thugs have decided to invade Paris, near the Tour Eiffel, aux Champs de Mars. What barbecue will they have? Will they invite our grand vizir ?
To day, I put a piece of paper [a sign] on my coat: “Do not touch anymore to MY France!” Most of the people are blind; women are more observant than man, some people do not even dare to really see what they saw, I don’t care: I just wanted to sow an idea (while saying “Hail Mary”).
A protestant church in Meulan has been put on fire [today, November 8]. Nothing about that in our media. Too many are asleep.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians)
__________________________________________________________
Thoughts?
Riffy
[Edited by Riffhard] |
| November 8th, 2005 08:54 PM |
|
|
| monkey_man |
quote:
Thoughts?
Riffy,
I am curious as to the source of this letter. Parts of the letter seem to be written by someone with a limited grasp of English (the weird spelling of Chirac among many examples), while others are in perfect syntax. Please post a link to the source.
MM
BTW fucking amazing weather in NYC this weekend! |
| November 8th, 2005 09:20 PM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
Here ya go Monkey Man. It's from a blog site that I am not familiar with,however,I can attest to the shouts of Allah Akbar because they have been showing the video clips on various news stations. It seems that this blogger knows this woman rather well. The woman Marianne sure does know an awful lot about France so I tend to believe that she really is French. This is why I asked the French ROers about the letter.
http://theanchoressonline.com/2005/...anne-in-france/
Yes the weather in this part of the country has been great! It all goes to hell on tomarrow though. Rain and clouds. Still mild though. Are you in NYC MM?
Riffy |
| November 8th, 2005 09:31 PM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
Here's the video of thechants. Cue it intro aboutthe 8:30 mark and check it out. It's in German but you can plainly make out the shouts of the rioters in a Paris suburb.
The worm is turning,and it's not a very good sign when these kinds of chants start breaking out while buses,cars,buildings,and temples are being torched.
http://www.netwerk.tv/templates/vid...sx.jsp?f=198614
Riffy
|
| November 8th, 2005 10:04 PM |
|
|
| monkey_man |
quote:
Yes the weather in this part of the country has been great! It all goes to hell on tomarrow though. Rain and clouds. Still mild though. Are you in NYC MM?
Just got back from 5 days in NYC for a family function. . .I couldn't believe the weather. It was hard to believe it was Nov!
Thanks for the link. . .will check it out tomorrow!
MM |
| November 8th, 2005 10:30 PM |
|
|
| the good |
Like Riffy and Glencar said, the real danger here is that because of things like unemployment, many of these people do not feel as if they have been assimilated into French Society. Consequently, they reject French culture, and instead embrace their common Islamic heritage as a way to develop some sense of identity. In an historically Catholic country, this can only create an us vs them, or a believers vs. infidels type of mentality. Inevitably, some of these people will fall under the spell of radical Islam. When this occurs, France may well have its own home grown strain of Islamic terrorism to deal with.
But hopefully we haven't reached that point yet. If French socialism can be defeated, then the economic conditions, that, while not causing terrorism, at least provide a fertile breeding ground for finding adherents to radical Islam, can be eradicated. This would be great news for France and for the West. I only wish the French the best. Their ability to solve this problem may well determine the outcome of our war against radical Islam.
[Edited by the good] |
| November 9th, 2005 05:04 AM |
|
|
| Mathijs |
I'd like to point out something else. The discussion here natuarally pinpoints on the situation in France. I would like to mention that the situation in France is hardly any different then in parts of the Netherlands, Germany, England, Italy, Spain, Belgium. These countries have had the same kind of socialistic government for the last 30 years, and also have cities (Rotterdam, Brussels, London, Birmingham, Milan, Madrid) with the same kind of suburbs with large groups of unemployed immigrants without any education and any future. A couple of months ago the same kind of riots happened in Brittain for example. Also, there's plenty of American cities with the same suburbs, like Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston, Detroit, Los Angeles, with large groups of African-American, Mexican or whatever groups, who live in poverty.
Creating jobs is a nice political statement, but fact is that there's hardly an opportunity to do so for people without any mahor education, when all the handwork is shifting to Asian countries. Cutting tax is nice for the short-term, but has drastic negative results on the longer term (things like social securities and old age pensioning get too expensive, difficiency on national budget will rise). It's easier said than done to create jobs, but if you look at the US and Europe, both left-wing and right-wing governments do not succeed very well. The ony key to a better future is eductaion, but that is a long term solution, it doesn't solve anything tomorow.
Mathijs |
| November 9th, 2005 06:41 AM |
|
|
| RedLight |
In America, poverty is only a problem when it involves non-whites.
http://www.netstate.com/states/alma/wv_alma.htm
WEST VIRGINIA
Lowest crime rate in America:
Crimes Reported per 100,000 (1992-1993) 2,532.6 Rank 51st
Violent Crimes 208.4 Rank 48th
Almost the lowest per capita income:
Per capita income (2000)
Source:Bureau of Economic Analysis, U.S. Department of Commerce $21,738 Rank 49th
Disposable personal income per capita (2000)
Source:Bureau of Economic Analysis, U.S. Department of Commerce $19,156 Rank 49th
Median income of households(1993) $22,421 Rank 50th
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/54000.html
West Virginia - 95% White, 3.2% Black
Median household income, 1999 $29,696 (USA National Average - $41,994)
Per capita money income, 1999 $16,477 (USA National Average - $21,587)
Persons below poverty, percent, 1999 17.9% (USA National Average -12.4%)
|
| November 9th, 2005 06:42 AM |
|
|
| Jumping Jack |
Isn't it ironic that a communist country like China that has adopted capitalism in a big way will end up crushing the socialist economies in Europe?
Prosperity goes to the economic systems that provide incentives and rewards for investment, innovation, productivity and competitive advantage. Poverty and unemployment are the reward for systems that penalize business and thereby push jobs to other markets. |
| November 9th, 2005 06:44 AM |
|
|
| Jumacfly |
France has been declared in "state of emergency"!
minors under 16 can 't go out after 10 am in the concerned areas.
f*ck,where will I buy hashish tonight?? |
| November 9th, 2005 07:43 AM |
|
|
| Mathijs |
quote:
RedLight wrote:
In America, poverty is only a problem when it involves non-whites.
This is much like the statement made by Adolf Hitler when he was elected in 1933. In his speech for the Reichstag he declared that crime in Germany was caused by unemployed jews, and in order to fight crime and raise the general standard in Germany, one had to ban the jews.
So, in America, white people in poverty do not cause problems, but black people in poverty cause problems?
Mathijs
|
| November 9th, 2005 08:22 AM |
|
|
| L&A |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
... . These countries have had the same kind of socialistic government for the last 30 years, and also have cities (Rotterdam, Brussels, London, Birmingham, Milan, Madrid) with the same kind of suburbs with large groups of unemployed immigrants without any education and any future. ...
Brussels is different. We have a lot of unemployed immigrants but they are not living in suburbs, but mostly near the center of the city. The suburbs of Brussels are mostly rich areas. That's a big difference with Paris. |
| November 9th, 2005 09:34 AM |
|
|
| justforyou |
quote:
Jumping Jack wrote:
Isn't it ironic that a communist country like China that has adopted capitalism in a big way will end up crushing the socialist economies in Europe?
And why wouldn't China crush the western capitalistic economies too ? |
| November 9th, 2005 09:45 AM |
|
|
| sirmoonie |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
This is much like the statement made by Adolf Hitler when he was elected in 1933. In his speech for the Reichstag he declared that crime in Germany was caused by unemployed jews, and in order to fight crime and raise the general standard in Germany, one had to ban the jews.
I agree 100%. In the long run, we have much more to fear from German nationalism/pride than we do from the scourage of Islam. |
| November 9th, 2005 09:50 AM |
|
|
| Jumping Jack |
China certainly poses an economic threat to capitalistic systems leaning toward socialism as well. Many in the US favor more taxes and bigger government run programs and are blind to the risks associated with that approach. |
| November 9th, 2005 10:00 AM |
|
|
| Mathijs |
quote:
L&A wrote:
Brussels is different. We have a lot of unemployed immigrants but they are not living in suburbs, but mostly near the center of the city. The suburbs of Brussels are mostly rich areas. That's a big difference with Paris.
Really? Do you mean with center the old center (Beurs area)? I thought most immigrants lived in the north and south district, for example close to the Isle of Brussel area.
Mathijs |
| November 9th, 2005 10:01 AM |
|
|
| Mathijs |
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:
I agree 100%. In the long run, we have much more to fear from German nationalism/pride than we do from the scourage of Islam.
What, you mean we have to fear the current, modern Germany? Are you serious?
Mathijs |
| November 9th, 2005 10:54 AM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
What, you mean we have to fear the current, modern Germany? Are you serious?
Mathijs
Psst,....hey Mathijs,Moonie,a lovable fellow if ever there was,never the less has some kind of phobia about Deutchsland. I can't explain it and,I dare say,he can't either. Although I must say if we were talking about 1936 I would firmly back him up on that statement.
Riffhard |
| November 9th, 2005 11:17 AM |
|
|
| Jumacfly |
I ll be in Paris tomorrow, if you see a burning tourist that's me! |
| November 9th, 2005 12:28 PM |
|
|
| lotsajizz |
(sigh) welcome back to Eleventh Century people... |
| November 9th, 2005 12:32 PM |
|
|
| lotsajizz |
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:
I agree 100%. In the long run, we have much more to fear from German nationalism/pride than we do from the scourage of Islam.
gimmie a break!!! they're frickin' neighbors bitch now even when the Germans wish to set up a memorial to the largest ethnic cleansing in history -- that of the Germans of Eastern Europe in 1944-1947, a despicable episode of human history and one likely to be repeated if hateful ignorance as above is really believed |
|
