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| FPM C10 |
Oh, for Christ's sake.
And I mean that literally.
I can't even talk to you people. It's not just that America has become two different countries. I don't think I'm even of the same species as you people.
I'm sure that will make all of you as happy as it makes me.
The fact that you all hate ME for the picture is curious. First off, it's an illustration of exactly what we were talking about re:Gonzales. I didn't take the picture. I didn't send it home to the folks back home as a "joke". I didn't create the atmosphere that "accidently" allowed it to happen, or perhaps even knowingly ordered it to happen. The guy isn't just dressed up "silly", there are fucking electrical wires hooked up to him. He didn't behead anyone, at least there's absolutely no evidence pointing to it, and he didn't fly any planes into any buildings. Yet that's why we invaded his country, isn't it?
The fact that terrorists beheaded Americans is hideous, and I do not condone it in any way - even though your reaction is certainly once again implying that I do. To which I say, once again, fuck you for suggesting it. But they didn't come into America and behead people - they snatched them off the streets of their cities, where we had no business being. If the situation was reversed, what would WE do? That much and more.
But that's off the subject anyway. Saying we can do THAT (the photo) because someone else did something worse is no excuse. And the fact that you people hate me for bringing up a photo (one of thousands) which is already burned into everyone's conscience - everyone who HAS a conscience - says loads about you, not me. And Gonzales, just a guy "doing his job", is culpable. You wanted to know why I dislike him, remember? That photo is directly related to the conversation. Bringing up beheadings is not.
And I said "For Christ's sake" because to make it all even more disgusting (to me, evidently not to any of you) is that Christ is used as an excuse, somehow. For the invasion of Iraq, and for the "silly" photo. Bush wraps his whole misguided, criminal campaign in the cloak of evangelical Christianity. And that sickens me, and I'm a fucking agnostic.
One of you please explain to me what Christ has to do with any of this.
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| glencar |
Wow. First, I don't hate you. I think you're horribly misguided but hate? No. Second, that guy isn't getting zapped. The worst thing that happened to those people was that someone sicced a dog on some of them. I'm not proud of those who did that stuff but it shouldn't in any way take away from what a great thing we've done over there. Before you get your shorts twisted, I'm not insinuating that you're not proud of our troops.
Would we really be justified in beheading those who came to America in a military operation? That's so 17th century. As for Bush's religion, I can't recall too many (or any) instances of him using Christ to justify anything he's done in Iraq.
For the record, Gonzales was not out of line with what he approved. He certainly didn't approve what happened in Iraq. That was done by some goofballs who seem to ahve been really bored on a Saturday night. |
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| gypsy |
quote:
FPM C10 wrote:
Oh, for Christ's sake.
And I mean that literally.
I can't even talk to you people. It's not just that America has become two different countries. I don't think I'm even of the same species as you people.
I'm sure that will make all of you as happy as it makes me.
The fact that you all hate ME for the picture is curious. First off, it's an illustration of exactly what we were talking about re:Gonzales. I didn't take the picture. I didn't send it home to the folks back home as a "joke". I didn't create the atmosphere that "accidently" allowed it to happen, or perhaps even knowingly ordered it to happen. The guy isn't just dressed up "silly", there are fucking electrical wires hooked up to him. He didn't behead anyone, at least there's absolutely no evidence pointing to it, and he didn't fly any planes into any buildings. Yet that's why we invaded his country, isn't it?
The fact that terrorists beheaded Americans is hideous, and I do not condone it in any way - even though your reaction is certainly once again implying that I do. To which I say, once again, fuck you for suggesting it. But they didn't come into America and behead people - they snatched them off the streets of their cities, where we had no business being. If the situation was reversed, what would WE do? That much and more.
But that's off the subject anyway. Saying we can do THAT (the photo) because someone else did something worse is no excuse. And the fact that you people hate me for bringing up a photo (one of thousands) which is already burned into everyone's conscience - everyone who HAS a conscience - says loads about you, not me. And Gonzales, just a guy "doing his job", is culpable. You wanted to know why I dislike him, remember? That photo is directly related to the conversation. Bringing up beheadings is not.
And I said "For Christ's sake" because to make it all even more disgusting (to me, evidently not to any of you) is that Christ is used as an excuse, somehow. For the invasion of Iraq, and for the "silly" photo. Bush wraps his whole misguided, criminal campaign in the cloak of evangelical Christianity. And that sickens me, and I'm a fucking agnostic.
One of you please explain to me what Christ has to do with any of this.
How do you know we have no business being in Iraq? Are you a member of the CIA? Do you have a family member in the CIA?
I do.
Do you know how the Iraqi prisoners treat the guards/MP's?
How many people in your family are in the military? I'd really like to know.
I have a LOT of family members and friends serving in Iraq.
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| prism |
A Bigger Bang is another working title they thought of when writing the song Neocon and thinking about the U.S. military's MOAB: The Mother of All Bombs dropped on Baghdad in 2003. |
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| prism |
But personally I prefer the title Manhattan Beach, because that's where I live! Manhattan Beach, California. Although there were much better titles on the list. |
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| BlindLemon |
Well, I certainly would not have thought that after months of lurking, such a discussion will bring me out of hiding. Strange topic for a first post on a Stones messageboard, but...
I think those who resent being reminded of humiliating acts committed against PoWs and alleged terrorists, in fact, even proven terrorists, rapists, Charles Manson or anybody, should consider that as long as our states in the coalition call themselves democratic and consider human rights to be inalienable, no standard, or lack thereof, in other states, let alone standards prevailing in non-state entities and organizations should and can have any bearing whatsoever on the norms that we as citizens demand our governments to observe, right? (I think this is what you call a run-on sentence)
So I think the argument "think of what they did to us" is faulty in this context, because human rights are per definitionem not dependent on conditions - they are absolute, period. It is not liberal or non-aggressive behaviour that earns you the right to be treated fairly. Implicitly, the US also acknowledges this - rightly so - when it is pushing in the UN to end the ridiculous situation where states such as Lybia can sit on the HR commission. This policy only makes sense, if we accept the premise that there can be no excuse to disregarding human rights - otherwise, we would have to start measuring who is violating them to what extent, and mete out places in the UN commissions accordingly.
I am not saying that human rights abuses can be eliminated - states will always protect their security, and sacrifice principles for lives. The question is, can these abuses always be shown to have taken place under conditions justifying it? So while I think one can make strong realpolitik arguments for the existence Guantanamo, at least in cases in which abuse of HRs is blatantly not linked to societal security, but is a case of revenge or sick people living out animal instincts, any attempts to explain them away by reference to what was done by some other people to some other people is invalid, as long as we don't adopt the logic of Saddam and the terrorists.
On a different note: look what the cat dragged/drug in - a nice Stones topic and guessing game sinking into the swamp of politics... |
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| stewed & Keefed |
From SHIDOOBEE
http://p081.ezboard.com/fshidoobeewithstonesdougfrm391.showMessage?topicID=123.topic
CHOM-FM Montreal to play new single next Friday
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Just listening to CHOM in Montreal which is avail on-line, and the announcer said that next Friday (in 8 days?) they would play the new Stones single "Rough Justice" after 7 AM. Just reporting the facts, but I have never heard of this song before. Has anyone else? |
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| Poplar |
fuck yeah! that's what I'm talking about.
i'll go ahead and state the obvious: Someone post that bitch ASAP!
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| Jumacfly |
must we again talk about politics into this thread??
come on guys, it's COMING!!!
THE NEW ALBUM, IT' S COMING!!!!!!
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| IanBillen |
quote:
gypsy wrote:
Hopefully, they'll be some new pussy at the Trocadero.
So your Bi-Sexual? You have got everyone curious now.
Ian
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| IanBillen |
[quote]Jumacfly wrote:
must we again talk about politics into this thread??
come on guys, it's COMING!!!
THE NEW ALBUM, IT' S COMING!!!!!!
I'm with you.
Ian |
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| nankerphelge |
FPM -- I do not hate you - not even close.
I just cannot blame Gonzalez for some of the idiots who mistreated prisoners. Gonzalez is not any more culpable in my mind than you or I. In fact, following the analysis in the Gonzalez memo, the threat of severe bodily pain (and I think electrical shocks to the bod would likely qualify) would be torture.
All Gonzalez did -- as any White House lawyer does -- is provide his analysis of the law. Sort of like in the Clinton administration -- you just know there were a few lawyers burning the midnite oil trying to figure out the legal implications of various things they did -- like obtaining all the FBI files of their enemies - or Hillary's role in Whitewater -- or Bill's serial rapings, and perjury, and obstruction of justice. Did the lawyer who figured out "is" has various meanings or the lawyer that determined that in oral sex, only one person is really having sex -- were those lawyers responsible for Bill's inability to keep his dog on the leash?
As for the beheadings, I didn't mean to imply that such treatment of our people justifies the mistreatment of their people.
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| Joey |
" FPM -- I do not hate you - not even close. "
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V
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| Scottfree |
quote:
prism wrote:
A Bigger Bang is another working title they thought of when writing the song Neocon and thinking about the U.S. military's MOAB: The Mother of All Bombs dropped on Baghdad in 2003.
The MOAB has never been used in combat, just tested somewhere in Florida....We were doing some saber rattling showing the most powerful conventional bomb... |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
FPM -- I do not hate you - not even close.
That was a response to Gypsy, who does. Hey, whatever. It's a free country. (I know I later said "you people" or something.)
Thanks for clarifying your position. I respectfully disagree re:Gonzales.
None of this should be in a thread about the new album. I apologize to the board for my part in sidetracking it into our usual shouting match.
Gypsy: I have no family in Iraq, thankfully, or I would be even more vocal in my criticism. I do know people who are over there. You don't have to be in the CIA to know the excuses we've been given for the invasion are invalid. And you don't have to have family in harm's way to want all Americans back home safely.
Please read Blind Lemon's well-stated post for more thoughts on the subject, as I agree with every word. If you want to throw more invectives at me for not supporting terrorism of ANY kind, or if you want to explain to me how the war in Iraq makes anyone any safer, please start a new thread to do so. |
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| jb |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
FPM -- I do not hate you - not even close.
I just cannot blame Gonzalez for some of the idiots who mistreated prisoners. Gonzalez is not any more culpable in my mind than you or I. In fact, following the analysis in the Gonzalez memo, the threat of severe bodily pain (and I think electrical shocks to the bod would likely qualify) would be torture.
All Gonzalez did -- as any White House lawyer does -- is provide his analysis of the law. Sort of like in the Clinton administration -- you just know there were a few lawyers burning the midnite oil trying to figure out the legal implications of various things they did -- like obtaining all the FBI files of their enemies - or Hillary's role in Whitewater -- or Bill's serial rapings, and perjury, and obstruction of justice. Did the lawyer who figured out "is" has various meanings or the lawyer that determined that in oral sex, only one person is really having sex -- were those lawyers responsible for Bill's inability to keep his dog on the leash?
As for the beheadings, I didn't mean to imply that such treatment of our people justifies the mistreatment of their people.
Bill Clinton was the greatest President since Truman. Hillary will prevail in 08.. |
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| The_Worst |
quote:
gypsy wrote:
Exactly.
No one would ever post those photos - they're heartbreaking.
I hate FPM with every fiber of my being.
gypsy,
Although I've never met you you are an incredible woman! Keep up the excellent posts!!! |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
The_Worst wrote:
gypsy,
Although I've never met you you are an incredible woman! Keep up the excellent posts!!!
As I suggested before, a seperate "I Hate FPM" thread would probably be appreciated by the people who want to read about the new album in this thread.
We're ironing out the details of a PPV event where Gypsy kicks my ass in some sort of topless jello-wrestling/kickboxing event. We'll keep you posted. |
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| Gazza |
any chance this thread could return to the original subject?
fuck me pink, we finally get some Stones news and it still seems to be an excuse to hijack it with this fucking crap.. |
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| Joey |
" ... fuck me pink !!!!! "
 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| texile |
amen blind lemon and c10..........
i have 4 cousins in the military - not that i think that should be a qualification to vent or not to vent but....
to excuse or passify human rights abuses, and as BL stated so perfectly - there is no meter that measures what is and isn't acceptable - to dehumanize someone is barbaric, plain and simple.......that dehumanizes us, and we're supposed to be better than that;
if you believe in what shrub is doing in iraq with all his righteous indignation - than i would think pictures like this diminish the cause - and this has nothing to do with left or right.
god, i hope the stones deliver..... |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
texile wrote:
god, i hope the stones deliver.....
Gazza asked us not to continue the human rights conversation in this thread and I'd like to comply with his wishes. Thanks for your support, though.
Personally I don't think "A Bigger Bang" is a good title at all. What the cover art looks like might help a bit - or it could be like Steel Wheels, where the title and the cover art were equally boring and had nothing to do with anything.
Some of the song titles are promising, though. "Rough Justice" in particular sounds classic! |
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| texile |
i agree about politics - it's polarizing.....but sometimes its so damn hard to let it sit; i apologize and refrain.
i've just realized that since i became a fan in 1979 - this is the longest i've ever waited for a stones album.....
i acually like a bigger bang, reminds me of those unpretentious punk titles - but the album would have to back it up, otherwise - |
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| Maxlugar |
Everyone across the world should just kick back, open a beer and play some Skynyrd!
You can't shoot when you're playing air guitar, man.
[Edited by Maxlugar] |
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| FPM C10 |
Hey, you goin' to the Cheap Trick concert? |
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| Maxlugar |
[quote]FPM C10 wrote:
Hey, you goin' to the Cheap Trick concert?
Is Bun E. Carlos still in the band? And that geeky looking guitarist? Something Nealson, I think his name was?? SURE!!! Hey does Bun E. Carlos still wear medical gloves when he drums? Those must get SWEATY! |
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| Monkey Woman |
It's becoming increasingly depressing these days to log into RO. Whatever the thread is about, it's sure to degenerate into politics. And not even interesting debates and topics! Just the rehashing of the old Bush hate vs Bush worship. And mostly from a purely USA point of view. For a board where many of us are probably reading for a well-needed time of relaxation between bouts of struggling with reality... It's painful. |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Monkey Woman wrote:
It's becoming increasingly depressing these days to log into RO. Whatever the thread is about, it's sure to degenerate into politics. And not even interesting debates and topics! Just the rehashing of the old Bush hate vs Bush worship. And mostly from a purely USA point of view. For a board where many of us are probably reading for a well-needed time of relaxation between bouts of struggling with reality... It's painful.
True! That's why at Gazza's request we were trying to get this thread back to its original topic. I guess not everyone "got the memo".
Please address hate mail to:
The "I Hate FPM" Thread
Coming soon to a message board near you!
Hey, how about them Stones? |
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| Joey |
quote:
FPM C10 wrote:
Please address hate mail to:
The "I Hate FPM" Thread
Coming soon to a message board near you!
YESSIR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| gypsy |
quote:
Joey wrote:
" FPM -- I do not hate you - not even close. "
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V
nanky! He looks so well-rested in that photo, no? |
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