| September 19th, 2005 03:42 PM |
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| Neocon |
Wow. Very informative. I do hear the Keith guitar pretty low on "Dangerous Beauty." It does sound like more Keith style on "Rough Justice," It "Won't take Long," and "She Saw Me Coming." Of course "Infamy," and "This Place is Empty" are keith.
I read the magazine and it sounds like the "Let me down Slow" Chorus was Keith's.
So he probably had a major role in 6 songs on the album. Is it still an open question that he may have come up with the main riff to "Look What the Cat Dragged in"? Slow that riff down and it sounds like it was somewhere in "All Down the Line."
So as rule if Keith isn't playing the main riff, he didn't come up with the musical ideas?
If Mick did 70% of the songwriting, is it possible Keith maybe physically or mentally ill? Worry some!
So is the song "Infamy" about Mick? "You whip the floor with me."
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| September 19th, 2005 04:36 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
the good wrote:
Well, Keith knows they were talking about songwriting at that point, so I don't think he was just referring to a guitar part.
I can't say for sure, but don't forget: He was talking to a speciality guitar magazine... |
| September 19th, 2005 04:43 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
So as rule if Keith isn't playing the main riff, he didn't come up with the musical ideas?
If Mick did 70% of the songwriting, is it possible Keith maybe physically or mentally ill? Worry some!
I don't know if I'd go as far as saying it's a rule, but there's a mountain of evidence to support it - namely, songs like "Undercover of the Night," "Sad Sad Sad," "Highwire" and "Saint of Me," where Mick is playing the main idea and Keith is supporting (or not performing at all, as in the case of "Saint").
Still, what Keith does to Mick's songs count as musical ideas in my book. Even if he didn't write "New Faces," the licks he plays on the song make it great. This is where Ian Billen is correct: Because Keith's on it, ABB is a great Stones album rather than a good Jagger album. |
| September 19th, 2005 04:55 PM |
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| Gazza |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
So is the song "Infamy" about Mick? "You whip the floor with me."
I dont know about that, but I got a giggle out of the notion (my own) that a lot of the lyrics to "look what the cat dragged in" read like they could be written about Keith
If Mick had written those lyrics at the height of their feud on "Primitive Cool", we'd have had a field day!
[Edited by Gazza] |
| September 19th, 2005 04:57 PM |
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| Neocon |
No chance that since Ronnie was absent on many occasions, Keith picked up lead guitar and Mick picked up rhythm sort of out of neccessity? I guess this isn't a real convincing explanation for me, but a thought though.
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| September 19th, 2005 07:24 PM |
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| Zulu Fun Mix |
Although I would ultimately defer to Mel Belli on this, since he seems to have good reasons for what he says, I would like to make a case that Keith played some major role in writing "Dangerous Beauty." First, it has echoes of songs like "999" and "Struggle," as well as "You Got Me Rockin'." Cousins of "Dangerous Beauty" have clearly appeared on Keith solo CDs.
Second, the title sounds like a Keith title. Not the full set of lyrics, just the title: "Dangerous Beauty." So my image is of Keith coming up with the chord changes, rough melody, and title, then taking them to Mick, who then takes the song lyrically in directions Keith never imagined. Charlie might also have played a central role in establishing the main groove.
I'd also like to reinforce the point many have made that even if Keith didn't write a lot of these songs, ABB would probably have veered off into some very undesirable directions in the absence of his other contributions. I just wish he had played more leads and that Don Was had turned up his volume and the volume for the other guitar parts. |
| September 19th, 2005 07:47 PM |
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| IanBillen |
____________________________________________________________
Everyone here has their own take on what happened. I just go by what they say.
Remember Mick was playing drums in the writing process. Keith opted to play guitar or bass at these times.
What do you do you think Keith was doing while performing the guitar and bass lines? Do you honestly think Keith just went along as Mick shouted out from behind some sort of drum kit how the song goes????
It is also almost as hard for me to imagine Keith sitting there across the couch and in Micks house and after every song thinking Mick did everything???
I think we need to get real here.
Ian
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| September 19th, 2005 08:30 PM |
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| Neocon |
I don't know if I'm grasping at straws or not, but this thread is so much fun so here goes.
Since the bass is real loud on "Oh No Not You Again" and Keith is playing bass, should we read anything into it. Also, is Blondi Chaplin singing back up on "She saw Me Coming" a sign of anything?
"Oh No Not You Again" was described as patch work between Mick and Keith. He didn't call it a Mick "Tour deforce" like "Streets of Love" (which I don't think anyone really wants credit for). He doesn't say Mick came up with the riff to "Oh No...." like he says Mick came up with "Back of My Hand."
I take it Keith thinks he had a part in "Oh No..." I'm not sure what Micks take is.
Kieth also has said he Came up with the riffs to "Rough Justice" and "Some lyrics about barnyard animal." |
| September 19th, 2005 09:19 PM |
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| IanBillen |
[quote]Neocon wrote:
I don't know if I'm grasping at straws or not, but this thread is so much fun so here goes.
Since the bass is real loud on "Oh No Not You Again" and Keith is playing bass, should we read anything into it. Also, is Blondi Chaplin singing back up on "She saw Me Coming" a sign of anything?
"Oh No Not You Again" was described as patch work between Mick and Keith. He didn't call it a Mick "Tour deforce" like "Streets of Love" (which I don't think anyone really wants credit for). He doesn't say Mick came up with the riff to "Oh No...." like he says Mick came up with "Back of My Hand."
I take it Keith thinks he had a part in "Oh No..." I'm not sure what Micks take is.
Kieth also has said he Came up with the riffs to "Rough Justice" and "Some lyrics about barnyard animal."
____________________________________________________________
I did not know about Oh No Not You Again. IF Keith said that that means he and Mick did it together. Hence if you asked someone "hey who built that fence"?
and the second person replied "Me and Mick patched that up between us"
That means the two both wrote the song and put the thing together.
If infact Keith said that then yet here we have another track..... A MAJOR TRACK in which Keith wrote some of.
Either Keith is totaly lying about his input on the album or the dude did incredibly MORE than as everyone says.
If all this is true I still have no idea how everyone is saying this is all a Mick album |
| September 20th, 2005 07:25 AM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
IanBillen wrote:
____________________________________________________________
Everyone here has their own take on what happened. I just go by what they say.
Remember Mick was playing drums in the writing process. Keith opted to play guitar or bass at these times.
What do you do you think Keith was doing while performing the guitar and bass lines? Do you honestly think Keith just went along as Mick shouted out from behind some sort of drum kit how the song goes????
It is also almost as hard for me to imagine Keith sitting there across the couch and in Micks house and after every song thinking Mick did everything???
I think we need to get real here.
Ian
Of course that scenario sounds ridiculous - because it didn't happen. Mick has said he played drums on "Keith's ideas," which most non-self-deluding people have narrowed to five songs.
And there are these things called demos and drum machines and multi-track recording machines - 20th-century marvels that help songwriters avoid having to "shout out how the song goes."
[Edited by Mel Belli]
[Edited by Mel Belli] |
| September 20th, 2005 07:37 AM |
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| IanBillen |
[quote]Mel Belli wrote:
Of course that scenario sounds ridiculous - because it didn't happen. Mick has said he played drums on "Keith's ideas," which most non-self-deluding people have narrowed to five songs.
And there are these things called demos and drum machines and multi-track recording machines - 20th-century marvels that help songwriters avoid having to "shout out how the song goes."
____________________________________________________________________________
I am talking about the writing process while the songs were in the making. And of coarse I was being sarcastic as you probably figured.
Also see my above post on "Oh No Not You Again". If this is true yet another Major track was patched up between both Keith and Mick....
Ian |
| September 20th, 2005 07:55 AM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
IanBillen wrote:
I am talking about the writing process while the songs were in the making. And of coarse I was being sarcastic as you probably figured.
Also see my above post on "Oh No Not You Again". If this is true yet another Major track was patched up between both Keith and Mick....
Ian
OK. Here's the direct quote:
Guitar World: The new song "Oh No, Not You Again" is such a quintessential Stones three-chord rocker. Can you and Mick roll out of bed and write one of those in five minutes by this point? Or do they come a little less easily than that?
KR: Sometimes they're just a general idea -- just the phrase "Oh no, not you again." We sleep on that and the next day slip each other bits of paper saying, "How about if it went this way?" It's all a bit of a patchwork really...
-----
He's talking hypothetically about the way he and Mick typically work. There's no claim to have written ONNYA.
[Edited by Mel Belli] |
| September 20th, 2005 10:57 AM |
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| Neocon |
Ian, if it makes you feel any better, I read the article the same way you did. Keith's does seem to be saying he wrote the chorus on "Let Me Down Slow." He does sound like he's saying "Oh No Not You Again" was a hybreed.
Mel, don't you think Ian has a point about the article? I think you have to read a lot into it to not see it like Ian.
That doesn't mean Mel is wrong. Maybe Keith was getting embarrassed saying "Back of My hand" was Mick's riff, "Streets of Love" a Mick Tour De Force (I just vomitted). Maybe these guys don't want to give the impression that this is 70% Mick solo work? But again, that's reading into it.
I personally think Keith did stuff on other songs besides the 5. For example in addition to the chorus on "Let Me Down Slow" I think he changed the melody such as the "Feel a little fragile." How horrible are those parts where Mick's singing "I was drinking in Love Gulping it Down." Makes me want to vomit as much as "Streets of Love." Oh mercy!
Any way, besides the best riff to "Look What the Cat Dragged in" and probably some stuff on "Dangerous Beauty." He probably did something on "Biggest Mistake" because he sings back up and the backup singing he provides sounds awefull. Seems like it wouldn't have been Mick's choice for backup.
I guess I still think at best Keith was responsible for 40% and at worst 30%. Now I'm more of a Keith fan, so you have to keep that in mind. Keep up the "Struggle" Ian!
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| September 20th, 2005 11:27 AM |
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| IanBillen |
[quote]Mel Belli wrote:
OK. Here's the direct quote:
Guitar World: The new song "Oh No, Not You Again" is such a quintessential Stones three-chord rocker. Can you and Mick roll out of bed and write one of those in five minutes by this point? Or do they come a little less easily than that?
KR: Sometimes they're just a general idea -- just the phrase "Oh no, not you again." We sleep on that and the next day slip each other bits of paper saying, "How about if it went this way?" It's all a bit of a patchwork really...
-----
He's talking hypothetically about the way he and Mick typically work. There's no claim to have written ONNYA.
Maybe.
But why wouldn't Keith say that one was different if infact that song wasn't done in the way he said alot are? The question was general but was still based off of ONNYA. Again, as someone posted, do you think your reading into it?
I mean Keith was asked how the rockers are written anymore and his response was a mutual effort between he and Mick.
Buttom line, that was his response. Now, I understand what you mean by what is he supposed to say if he isn't writing that much. Maybe anything except it does appear Keith is saying it is a mutual thing. And yes, I think it was a generalization, but with ONNYA used as the prime example. How the heck ele's can one look at the response.
Again, in my eyes, it is what is is.
Thank you for putting this up there though. I appreciate it.
Ian |
| September 20th, 2005 11:37 AM |
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| glencar |
Wow, his stupidity never ends! But it is fascinating in an eerie kinda way... |
| September 20th, 2005 11:48 AM |
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| Neocon |
It is both. Something to pass the time at work really! |
| September 20th, 2005 01:48 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
I personally think Keith did stuff on other songs besides the 5. For example in addition to the chorus on "Let Me Down Slow" I think he changed the melody such as the "Feel a little fragile." How horrible are those parts where Mick's singing "I was drinking in Love Gulping it Down." Makes me want to vomit as much as "Streets of Love." Oh mercy!
Any way, besides the best riff to "Look What the Cat Dragged in" and probably some stuff on "Dangerous Beauty." He probably did something on "Biggest Mistake" because he sings back up and the backup singing he provides sounds awefull. Seems like it wouldn't have been Mick's choice for backup.
I guess I still think at best Keith was responsible for 40% and at worst 30%. Now I'm more of a Keith fan, so you have to keep that in mind. Keep up the "Struggle" Ian!
It's highly likely that Keith came up with suggestions like that - what he calls "little nuances and ideas." To parse the songs in that kind of detail, though, is a bit like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
Which, if you're looking to pass time at work, is a perfectly fine thing to do 
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| September 20th, 2005 03:30 PM |
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| Neocon |
I think some of the words in other songs. Like maybe Keith wrote "I must admitt this song is aweful bad" on "Streets of Love." And Mick changed in to I "must admitt, I was aweful bad." Keith may have ensured the word "Aweful" was in the song for obvious reasons.
Mick probably said "Keith you're laughing because you think 'I must admitt I was aweful bad' refers to the horrible stylized singing," and Keith may have said "Laugh, I Nearly Died." Yea, sheer speculation. |
| September 20th, 2005 06:20 PM |
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| Zulu Fun Mix |
ONNYA reminds me a bit of "Lonely at the Top," at least as it ended up on *She's the Boss*. Wasn't that originally a join KR-MJ composition? It must have been, since Keith got furious when he found out Mick stole it. But maybe it's just the chorus that sounds like ONNYA, not the chord changes. |
| September 20th, 2005 07:30 PM |
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| Neocon |
Yup. That was the only Jagger/Richards on She's the Boss. |
| September 20th, 2005 07:32 PM |
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| Riffhard |
The fact that some here refuse to see the obvious is just plain stupid. A Bigger Bang is "largely" a Mick album! Period! End of fucking story!! If you can't see,and hear that than you have no clue about the Stones. If you just want to be contrarian about it go for it. Most sane,and rational people that have even tin ears can tell that Mick did the lion's share of the writing here. I am stunned that this thread is still on page one.
It is a Stones' record,no doubt about that,but it was written mostly by Mick. It's obvious as fuck. Please tell me that you guys are kidding here?! I mean nobody that claims to be a Stones fan could not know that Mick wrote most of this album! How deaf do have to be not to hear the Mickness of almost every track on this disk?! If you're kidding,you got me! If not,well then. Let's just say that most on this forum are laughing at you. Laugh? I nearly died! (by the way that song,it's a Mick tune!)
Riffhard |
| September 20th, 2005 08:12 PM |
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| the good |
[quote]Riffhard wrote:
The fact that some here refuse to see the obvious is just plain stupid. A Bigger Bang is "largely" a Mick album! Period! End of fucking story!! If you can't see,and hear that than you have no clue about the Stones. If you just want to be contrarian about it go for it. Most sane,and rational people that have even tin ears can tell that Mick did the lion's share of the writing here. I am stunned that this thread is still on page one.
Riffhard
[quote]
The title of the thread is "corroboration of Mick's songwriting dominance." No one is denying that Mick came in with more ideas, but this just does not translate into Mick being a "dominant" songwriter. That's what we have been discussing. Let me ask you, what is your criteria for saying its plain and obvious that Mick wrote most of the songs on the album? It SOUNDS like MICK? Sorry Riffhard, but that just isn't a good way to establish anything. This point has been made several times and backed up by example. But I won't say your stupid and for not understanding this.
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| September 20th, 2005 08:17 PM |
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| Neocon |
First of all we all have varying degrees of knowledge. I don't think this needs to get too heated. I think yea, Mick did more on the album than Kieth.
Everything isn't that obvious though. We started with some folks thinking Keith only had a reasonable share of 3 songs. I think many folks would now agree he had a big role in at least 6 songs. Would you argue this list?
Those are:
Rough Justice (words and music)
Let Me Down Slow (Chorus and a bit of the melody before the chorus "I feel a bit fragile...)
It Wont Take Long
She saw Me Coming
This place is Empty
Infamy
That's a big change from saying keith had little to do with 13 songs and that he only cam eup with the title for Rough Justice, he came with lyrics as well.
Yea, "Streets of Love" "Rain Fall Down" "Laugh I Nearly Die" sounds like there all Mick. It seems obvious, but there is a healthy debate that Keith had an important role in "Dangerous Beauty," "Oh No," and "Look What the Cat Dragged In." And yea, blame the Guitar Magazine!
Apart from that, I think there is legitimate curiosity of what else he might have done. At least that's my motive. I'm not going to give much of an argument to someone saying Mick did 70%, but not 90%. Maybe I'm thick or crazy....
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| September 20th, 2005 08:31 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
the good wrote:
[quote]Riffhard wrote:
The fact that some here refuse to see the obvious is just plain stupid. A Bigger Bang is "largely" a Mick album! Period! End of fucking story!! If you can't see,and hear that than you have no clue about the Stones. If you just want to be contrarian about it go for it. Most sane,and rational people that have even tin ears can tell that Mick did the lion's share of the writing here. I am stunned that this thread is still on page one.
Riffhard
[quote]
The title of the thread is "corroboration of Mick's songwriting dominance." No one is denying that Mick came in with more ideas, but this just does not translate into Mick being a "dominant" songwriter. That's what we have been discussing. Let me ask you, what is your criteria for saying its plain and obvious that Mick wrote most of the songs on the album? It SOUNDS like MICK? Sorry Riffhard, but that just isn't a good way to establish anything. This point has been made several times and backed up by example. But I won't say your stupid and for not understanding this.
My answer is simple. I have read at least four seperate interviews with Keith,Mick,and even Ronnie. In every interview all members stated flatly that Mick wrote "the lion's share" of the songs. I also can hear the Mickness in most of these tunes. As an avid Stones fan for over thirty years now,I can easily distinguish between a Keith tune,and a Mick tune. It's plainly obvious. Even without Keith saying so,but he has stated that several times now. Keith did have influence on these songs. I'm not denying that obvious fact,but it is equally obvious that the "seed,or root" or most of these tunes are from Mick. I just find it beyond absurd that some people on this forum will argue over this ridiculous point. My god,how deaf must people be not hear what has been readily admitted by Keith himself?!
Just as I know beyond question that the tune Heaven on TTY was written by Mick. How do I know that? Because I have listened to it! Same goes with Tops. Some of these things are just obvious.
Riffhard |
| September 20th, 2005 09:28 PM |
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| Neocon |
Yup, the origin of most of the songs are Micks. Possibly 11 of Mick's and 5 of Keith's, although I read somewhere about keith talking about them fitting two seperate song they both started together. I've been speculating about that.
I've tried to find interviews with the band members and I've had a hard time. I read Keith talking about "Oh No," (You start with a phrase and slip notes) "Rough Justice," "Streets of Love," "Back of My Hand," "Infamy," "This Place is Empty." It's all from Guitar Magazine. Then I read some interview with Keith about how he came up with "Rough Justice" and Barn Yard Animal lyrics sort of as a tribute to "Little red Rooster."
I found one also where an interviewer says "This is seems much more your album than Keith's, strip away a few songs and it's Mick the musical."
Still, I think it's interesting to know what Keith contributed. If for example Mick wrote all of "Shattered, Except the riff and "Shoobee" that's interesting. Is the song good without those elements? Quality vs quantity is a consideration. Again, this album is definitely more Mick.
I found one also where an interviewer says "This is seems much more your album than Keith's, strip away a few songs and it's Mick the musical."
Where did you find interviews with other members talking about the songs? |
| September 20th, 2005 09:54 PM |
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| Riffhard |
Well at least two of the interviews that I read were through radio tradepapers. One was Radio Inc.,and another was Radio and Records. Mind you these are usually pool interviews that several different publications are free to print for a nominal fee. Also,Keith made mention to the fact that Mick came "packing for bear" in a Billboard interview from about eight months ago,or there abouts.
I'm not trying to be a dick about this. It's just that to argue over all the minutia about who wrote what is just nit picking in my book. It is abuntantly clear that Mick did,in fact,write the majority of this album. It's hardly the first time that this has been the case. I just get frustrated when some people can't hear the obvious direction that this record was recorded,and not see Mick written all over it. It stares me right in the face from the instant I hit play on the disk player. Having said that,I think Keith did a great job on this record,and I think his contributions should not be overlooked. Ofcourse, Charlie,and Ronnie's as well!
Riffhard |
| September 20th, 2005 10:27 PM |
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| glencar |
Aw Riffy, go ahead, be a dick. That's IanBillen's game & it looks like fun. |
| September 20th, 2005 10:35 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
glencar wrote:
Aw Riffy, go ahead, be a dick. That's IanBillen's game & it looks like fun.
LOL! Aw,blue you know me. It's good to be here. It's good to be anywhere. Some funny shit in this thread,huh? Very strange too.
Riffhard |
| September 20th, 2005 10:57 PM |
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| glencar |
See you in January? |
| September 20th, 2005 11:02 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
glencar wrote:
See you in January?
Well I am planing on making it,but I must secure a ticket. The sratch is tight these days so I will have to wait and see if one finds it's way to me. I will be looking soon though. If you hear of any extras laying about let me know. I cannot abide by missing a NYC summit! Come hell or high water I'll be there. The Good Lord willing.
Riffhard |
