LOL! Considering that the song styles on the album almost all date from the 40s, 50s or before, you have a peculiar notion of "contemporary", gc.
Nasty, that was a gibe at SirStonesalot's critique of ABB as adult contemporary. I like some of the songs on this new CD but most are fairly rote, yes?
13th September 2006 08:51 PM
Madafaka
quote:jb wrote:
An overrated album, artist, and movement. No one really cares what Dylan has to say .
[Edited by jb]
Talk by yourself!
[Edited by Bob Dylan]
[Edited by Madafaka]
13th September 2006 08:52 PM
Madafaka
Check this out: http://www.apple.com/ipod/ads/dylan/
13th September 2006 10:17 PM
PeerQueer
quote:jb wrote:
Merle Haggard was well received..some people walked out mumbling "I can't underatand him"...
_________
"underatand"...maybe these folks were vocally impaired???
Poor bastards...
Bob rules - I initially called his new work good - it isn't good - it's fucking great!!!!!!!!!!
Can't wait to catch his show in a couple weeks.
14th September 2006 09:13 AM
Nasty Habits
quote:glencar wrote:
Nasty, that was a gibe at SirStonesalot's critique of ABB as adult contemporary. I like some of the songs on this new CD but most are fairly rote, yes?
gc - I was just gibing you on the whole "contemporary" notion . . . Because isn't gibing and jiving what this board is all about?
I don't think either album is overwhelmingly "adult contemporary" so I'm all for you giving SS shit about his blatant & constant overuse of that term.
Speaking of which . . .
rote?
yeah, he 'rote 'em!
which ones, specifically, do you think are "rote"?
14th September 2006 09:45 AM
glencar
The ones in the middle. Except for Workingman's Blues #1 or whatever it's called. Much of it sounds like Love & Theft Redux. Say what you will about ABB but it isn't VL (YAY!) or BTB.
14th September 2006 10:23 AM
Martha
quote:jb wrote:
Merle Haggard was well received..some people walked out mumbling "I can't underatand him"...
"I can't underatand him"...
ROTFLOL!
14th September 2006 02:53 PM
F505
quote:glencar wrote:
Much of it sounds like Love & Theft Redux.
What's wrong about that?
14th September 2006 02:55 PM
F505
I predict this thread will reach (again) 500 posts.
14th September 2006 02:55 PM
glencar
I expected more. I like TOOM much better anyway.
14th September 2006 02:56 PM
F505
quote:glencar wrote:
I expected more. I like TOOM much better anyway.
Well okay. Fair enough.
14th September 2006 02:58 PM
glencar
I always try to play it fair...
14th September 2006 03:35 PM
SteveMiller
Bob Dylan licks my ass hairs
14th September 2006 03:47 PM
Nasty Habits
quote:glencar wrote:
The ones in the middle. Except for Workingman's Blues #1 or whatever it's called. Much of it sounds like Love & Theft Redux. Say what you will about ABB but it isn't VL (YAY!) or BTB.
Pretty rote postin', gc.
14th September 2006 03:48 PM
glencar
I'm nothing if not rote!
14th September 2006 03:58 PM
Nasty Habits
Rote on!
14th September 2006 04:04 PM
Altamont
Rotally!
15th September 2006 12:28 AM
Madafaka
quote:SteveMiller wrote:
Bob Dylan licks my ass hairs
Your smelly and broken ass, yes.
15th September 2006 05:21 AM
charlotte
September 14, 2006
Who’s This Guy Dylan Who’s Borrowing Lines From Henry Timrod?
By MOTOKO RICH
Perhaps you’ve never heard of Henry Timrod, sometimes known as the poet laureate of the Confederacy.
But maybe you’ve heard his words, if you’re one of the 320,000 people so far who have bought Bob Dylan’s latest album, “Modern Times,” which made its debut last week at No. 1 on the Billboard album chart.
It seems that many of the lyrics on that album, Mr. Dylan’s first No. 1 album in 30 years (down to No. 3 this week), bear some strong echoes to the poems of Timrod, a Charleston native who wrote poems about the Civil War and died in 1867 at the age of 39.
“More frailer than the flowers, these precious hours,” the 65-year-old Mr. Dylan sings in “When the Deal Goes Down,” one of the songs on “Modern Times.” Compare that to these lines from Timrod’s “Rhapsody of a Southern Winter Night”:
A round of precious hours
Oh! here, where in that summer noon I basked
And strove, with logic frailer than the flowers.
“No doubt about it, there has been some borrowing going on,” said Walter Brian Cisco, who wrote a 2004 biography of Timrod, when shown Mr. Dylan’s lyrics. Mr. Cisco said he could find at least six other phrases from Timrod’s poetry that appeared in Mr. Dylan’s songs. But Mr. Cisco didn’t seem particularly bothered by that. “I’m glad Timrod is getting some recognition,” he said.
Henry Timrod was born in 1828 and was a private tutor on plantations before the Civil War started. He tried to sign up for the Confederate Army but was unable to serve in the field because he suffered from tuberculosis. He worked as an editor for a daily paper in Columbia, S.C., and began writing poems about the war and how it affected the residents of the South. He also wrote love poems and ruminations on nature. During his lifetime he published only one volume of poetry. Among his most famous poems were “Ode Sung on the Occasion of Decorating the Graves of the Confederate Dead at Magnolia Cemetery, Charleston, South Carolina 1866,” and “Ethnogenesis.” Mr. Cisco said he could not find any phrases from these poems in Mr. Dylan’s lyrics.
Mr. Dylan does not acknowledge any debt to Timrod on “Modern Times.” The liner notes simply say “All songs written by Bob Dylan” (although some fans have noted online that the title of the album contains the letters of Timrod’s last name).
Nor does he credit the traditional blues songs from which he took the titles, tunes and some lyrics for “Rollin’ and Tumblin’ ” and “Nettie Moore.”
This isn’t the first time fans have found striking similarities between Mr. Dylan’s lyrics and the words of other writers. On his last album, “Love and Theft,” a fan spotted about a dozen passages similar to lines from “Confessions of a Yakuza,” a gangster novel written by Junichi Saga, an obscure Japanese writer. Other fans have pointed out the numerous references to lines of dialogue from movies and dramas that appear throughout Mr. Dylan’s oeuvre. Example: “Love Is Just a Four-Letter Word” echoes a line from “Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.”
This time around Scott Warmuth, a disc jockey in Albuquerque and a former music director for WUSB, a public radio station in Stony Brook, on Long Island, discovered the concordances between Mr. Dylan’s lyrics and Timrod’s poetry by doing some judicious Google searches. Mr. Warmuth said he wasn’t surprised to find that Mr. Dylan had leaned on a strong influence in writing his lyrics.
“I think that’s the way Bob Dylan has always written songs,” he said. “It’s part of the folk process, even if you look from his first album until now.”
Mr. Warmuth noted that Mr. Dylan may also have used a line from Timrod in “ ’Cross the Green Mountain,” a song he wrote for the soundtrack to the movie “Gods and Generals,” which came out three years ago. Mr. Warmuth said there also appeared to be passages from Timrod in “Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum,” a song on “Love and Theft.”
Mr. Dylan has long been interested in the Civil War: in “Chronicles: Vol. 1,” Mr. Dylan’s autobiography, published by Simon & Schuster in 2004, he writes about spending time in the New York Public Library combing through microfilm copies of newspapers published from 1855 to 1865. “I crammed my head full of as much of this stuff as I could stand and locked it away in my mind out of sight, left it alone,” Mr. Dylan wrote.
To Mr. Warmuth, who found 10 phrases echoing Timrod’s poetry on “Modern Times,” Mr. Dylan’s work is still original. “You could give the collected works of Henry Timrod to a bunch of people, but none of them are going to come up with Bob Dylan songs,” he said.
Mr. Dylan could not be reached through his publicist for comment. A spokeswoman for Columbia Records, Mr. Dylan’s record label and a division of Sony BMG Music Entertainment, did not return calls for comment.
Because Timrod is long dead and his work has fallen out of copyright — you can find his collected poems on the Internet — there is no legal claim that could be made against Mr. Dylan.
But some fans are bothered by the ethics of Mr. Dylan’s borrowing ways. “Bob really is a thieving little swine,” wrote one poster on Dylan Pool (pool.dylantree.com/phorum5/read.php?1,642969), a chat room where Mr. Warmuth posted his findings. “If it was anyone else we’d be stringing them up by their neck, but no, it’s Bobby Dee, and ‘the folk process.’ ”
Authors who have been caught copying from other writers have been accused outright of plagiarism. Earlier this year Kaavya Viswanathan, a Harvard sophomore who had written a first novel, “How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild and Got a Life,” was attacked when readers discovered that many passages in the book nearly exactly replicated portions of “Sloppy Firsts” and “Second Helpings,” novels by Megan McCafferty. Ms. Viswanathan’s publisher, Little, Brown, pulled the book from shelves, and the author was disgraced in the press.
In Mr. Dylan’s case, critics and fans have long described the songwriter’s magpie tendencies, looking upon that as a manifestation of his genius, not unlike other great writers and poets like T. S. Eliot or James Joyce who have referenced past works.
Christopher Ricks, a professor of the humanities at Boston University who wrote “Dylan’s Visions of Sin,” a flattering study of the musician, said, “I may be too inclined to defend, but I do think it’s characteristic of great artists and songsters to immediately draw on their predecessors.” He added that it was atypical for popular musicians to acknowledge their influences.
Mr. Ricks said that one important distinguishing factor between plagiarism and allusion, which is common among poets and songwriters, is that “plagiarism wants you not to know the original, whereas allusion wants you to know.”
“When Eliot says, ‘No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be’ — to have a line ending ‘to be’ when the most famous line uttered by Hamlet is ‘to be or not to be’ — then part of the fun and illumination in the Eliot poem is that you should know it,” he said. But he added: “I don’t think Dylan is alluding to Timrod. I don’t think people can say that you’re meant to know that it’s Timrod.”
That’s exactly what bothers Chris Dineen, a middle school Spanish teacher and casual fan of Mr. Dylan’s in Albuquerque. “It seems kind of duplicitous,” he said. “Even casual fans know that Dylan has a history of doing this and it’s part of what makes him great, but this is different. This is one poet who’s used over and over and over again.”
Mr. Dineen said he would have been happy if Mr. Dylan had just given Timrod credit for the lines. “Maybe it’s the teacher in me. If I found out that he had done this in a research paper, he’d be in big trouble.”
But James Kibler, a professor of English at the University of Georgia who teaches the poetry of Timrod in his Southern literature classes, was delighted to hear of Mr. Dylan’s use of the verse. “If I were Timrod, I would love it,” he said. “I would say he’s doing a great honor to Timrod and let’s celebrate that.” Mr. Kibler said he planned to share Mr. Dylan’s references with his classes because his students “probably know more about Bob Dylan than Timrod.”
Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company
15th September 2006 06:17 AM
PartyDoll MEG
Nice to see ya back, Charlotte!!!
15th September 2006 07:20 AM
Gazza
>But some fans are bothered by the ethics of Mr. Dylan’s borrowing ways. “Bob really is a thieving little swine,” wrote one poster on Dylan Pool (pool.dylantree.com/phorum5/read.php?1,642969), a chat room where Mr. Warmuth posted his findings. “If it was anyone else we’d be stringing them up by their neck, but no, it’s Bobby Dee, and ‘the folk process.’ ”
how ironic that a Dylan fan complains about Bob appropriating someone else's line - and in doing so steals one of Dylan's own lines from 'Brownsville Girl' (there's another even more apt line in the same song, which goes 'if there's an original thought out there/I could use it right now' - which could apply to any songwriter)
Interesting article, but nothing really knew in songwriters using lines from other people's work and re-adapting them, whether its other songwriters, novelists or even film scripts (theres even a few examples on the last Stones album). There are several examples on Dylan's "Empire Burlesque" album where lyrics have been readapted from Bogart films, especially "Maltese Falcon"
[Edited by Gazza]
15th September 2006 07:58 AM
PartyDoll MEG
quote:Gazza wrote:
how ironic that a Dylan fan complains about Bob appropriating someone else's line - and in doing so steals one of Dylan's own lines from 'Brownsville Girl' (there's another even more apt line in the same song, which goes 'if there's an original thought out there/I could use it right now' - which could apply to any songwriter)
Interesting article, but nothing really knew in songwriters using lines from other people's work and re-adapting them, whether its other songwriters, novelists or even film scripts (theres even a few examples on the last Stones album). There are several examples on Dylan's "Empire Burlesque" album where lyrics have been readapted from Bogart films, especially "Maltese Falcon"
[Edited by Gazza]
Hmmmmmmmm.... I think I speak in song lyrics
15th September 2006 09:05 AM
Nasty Habits
"Bad artists copy. Great artists steal."
Pablo Picasso
"'You can't repeat the past.'
'Can't repeat the past?' he cried incredulously. 'why of course you can!'"
The Great Gatsby
15th September 2006 10:04 AM
Gazza
quote:Nasty Habits wrote:
"Bad artists copy. Great artists steal."
Pablo Picasso
"'You can't repeat the past.'
'Can't repeat the past?' he cried incredulously. 'why of course you can!'"
The Great Gatsby
A-HA!
She's looking into my eyes, she's holding my hand
She's looking into my eyes, she's holding my hand
She says, "You can't repeat the past." I say, "You can't? What do you mean, you can't? Of course you can."
- Bob Dylan, "Summer Days", from 'Love & theft', 2001
15th September 2006 11:13 AM
glencar
quote:Gazza wrote:
IThere are several examples on Dylan's "Empire Burlesque" album where lyrics have been readapted from Bogart films, especially "Maltese Falcon"
[Edited by Gazza]
When I first read this line, I saw "Falcon Crest" & I thought wha-wha-what??? Much relieved...
16th September 2006 09:30 AM
Madafaka
Is this thread dying?
16th September 2006 12:14 PM
PartyDoll MEG
quote:Madafaka wrote:
Is this thread dying?
No Way!!
16th September 2006 12:22 PM
Martha
What happened to the first thread did it reach 500 posts? and did jb ever ban himself? I missed all of that. :-(
16th September 2006 12:26 PM
Gazza
quote:Martha wrote:
What happened to the first thread did it reach 500 posts? and did jb ever ban himself? I missed all of that. :-(
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