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| Mathijs |
What is happening with the set list of this tour? This tour started out with some excellent, hardly played ever songs, but slowly it's turing to a Voodoo Lounge rehash show again. Where's She Smiled Sweetly, Parachute Woman, Don't Look Back, Torn And Frayed, Ain't Too Proud To Beg, Worried About You, Going To A Go Go, Heart Of Stone, Dance, Hand Of Fate, Loving Cup and Neighbours? I want to hear these songs!!! And where are the rarities the Stones usually do on a PPV?
Mathijs |
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| Maxlugar |
I hear ya but you can't blame them for the HBO show.
That show was for the masses.
Just the fact they did If You Can't Rock Me, Can't You Hear Me Knockin' and When the WHip Comes Down is plenty rare enough for the casual listener I'm sure.
[Edited by Maxlugar] |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
>Where's She Smiled Sweetly,<
Roseland
>Parachute Woman,<
Orpheum
>Don't Look Back,<
Aragon
>Torn And Frayed,<
Royale Palais, Aragon
>Ain't Too Proud To Beg,<
Roseland, Oakland
>Worried About You,<
Aragon
>Going To A Go Go,<
Orpheum, Tower, Roseland, Wiltern
>Heart Of Stone,<
Royale Palais, Orpheum, Tower, Wiltern
>Dance,<
Orpheum, Aragon, Roseland, Wiltern
>Hand Of Fate,<
Orpheum, Aragon, Tower, Roseland, Wiltern
>Loving Cup<
Fleet 02, MSG 02, Cleveland, Miami, LA Staples, Oakland, Nashville
>and Neighbours?<
Fleet 02, Comisky Park, Roseland, Toronto(Air Canada Ctr), Wiltern, 1st Pac Bell, San Diego, MGM
>I want to hear these songs!!! <
Then I suggest getting recordings of the above listed shows.
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| Gimme Shelter |
They also played "Heart of Stone" in Oakland. Great show. |
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| Boomhauer |
The only two songs on Mathijs' list that I think the "masses" would like are Ain't too Proud to Beg and Heart of Stone. |
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| Mathijs |
Sir Stonesalot, with your reasoning I don't even have to go to live shows anymore, I can just play the studio album.
I want them to perform the lesser known but still excellent songs like Hand of Fate more frequent. We all know Monkey Man by now -the new Licks Tour has tuned into a remake of the Voodoo Lounge Tour.
Mathijs |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Mathybabe...
I was simply illustrating a point. The songs that you mentioned have ALL been played. Some of them will get some more stage play before the end of this tour.
Now, for your assertion that they should play these songs MORE...is preposterous.
Here's why.
If they start playing these "nuggets" all the time...then they won't be "nuggets" anymore. They will be the new warhorses. I do not want Hand Of Fate to be a warhorse. I saw the Stones play HOF at Roseland. It was special. If they played it every night...or even just frequently...it wouldn't be special anymore...you know what I mean.
Besides, I thought you claimed that you weren't going to any shows on this tour. So why do you give a shit what they play.
I've tried to explain this before...and it seems to go right over your head. Stay with me and do the math, ok?
The Rolling Stones have a huge archive of songs and covers. They play a 2 hour and 15 minute set, approx. That means that they can squeeze between 20-22 songs into a set. Now, that's all simple enough. Here's the part that some of you can't seem to grasp. There are certain songs that they just HAVE to play. They can play anything they want you say? WRONG! No they can't. In a 50,000 seat stadium, there are MAYBE 2,500 "hardcore" or "real" fans. The rest are Hot Rocks fans, and people who are there for the "event", and some are just curious. These people all paid to see the warhorses. So we got a 21 song set, right. Here comes the math part.
Of those 21 songs a certain amount will be warhorses that the vast majority of the audience expects to hear.
1. Jumping Jack Flash
2 Satisfaction
3. Start Me Up
4. It's Only Rock & Roll
5. Honky Tonk Women
6. Brown Sugar
7. Tumbling Dice
8. Street Fighting Man
9. YCAGWYW
10. Gimme Shelter
11. Sympathy For The Devil
These songs we KNOW we are gonna get. So that leaves us with 10 songs left. 21-11=10. Right?
OK, so what about the other 10? Two of those belong to Keith. 10-2=8.
On this tour, they are playing one of the new songs. On other tours, this would take up more than one slot. 8-1=7
Four of the remaining seven will be other well known songs and covers...Miss You, Angie, Wild Horses, Let It Bleed, Like A Rolling Stone, etc. 7-4=3
Three left....Here is where you get your "nuggets". We get three songs man. CYHMK, Little Red Rooster, Mannish Boy etc.
3-3=0. Concert over.
Now, please explain to me, WHY would the Rolling Stones play to such a very small segment of the audience, and ignore the vast majority? Yet they DO toss us "real" fans a bone. For instance, CYHMK. This is a gift to us Mathy. A gift to people just like you and me.
You get a precious gift like that and have the gall to ask for more? Oh! Wait! They did give you more! Hand Of Fate, No Expectations, and all those other songs you mentioned.
Just remember the math. Besides, the stones themselves say it best...You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need.
If you need more than that. Tough shit. |
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| gypsymofo60 |
Yeah! OK!...BUT WHO KILLED KENNEDY? |
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| Bluzian |
SirStonesalot,
Just wanted to acknowledge your old-school math! ;-)
You make it perfectly clear.. as we all should have already
come to terms with...
MonkeyMan for instance to me is no longer a nugget, it is
a WarHorse. They play it very well, and it's become a
sporadic staple in their set.. it's a relatively easy song
for them to pull off, and to alot, MonkeyMan would still
be considered a "nugget". To me, it's old-hat.
Your logic was crystalized in the whole notion of H.O.F.
Cheers,
Ian
PS: Dont' get me wrong, I wouldnt care if I ever heard
the 11 HotRocks live ever again. I would much prefer
to hear Little Miss Amanda Jones, Slave and Sway. ;-) |
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| gypsymofo60 |
I reckon if you went to a show and they didn't play "The Warhorses" you'd walk out wearing.....Emoticon with ultra-surprised look. |
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| dealer squealing |
Mathijs is absolute right!!
And about the masses! Why do you all think that the masses would only want to hear warhorses?? That is not so, many people enjoy good R´n R band playing songs they havn´t heard before and why not introduce them to other songs than Brown Sugar and Its only R and R?? If a band got confidence they play what they want to play! |
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| beer |
This is a catch 22.
I agree with Mathijs AND Sirstonesalot.
To kick off the tour, The Stones came out strong, with a varied set. But slowly sank back into the Setlist rut. Don't get me wrong, this isn;t necessarily a bad thing. Not by any means. I was MORE than happy with the setlist i saw, and it was a hotrocks setlist. Even though I absolutely wanted to see "Torn and Frayed", "Hand of fate", "Love in Vain", etc etc etc..
But i'm guessing Mick decides these things very carefully. He knows how to find an even ground between the casual fans and the hardcores that are dying to hear the "rarities". And it happens to be, the Hotrocks sets win against the rarities.
The only solution to this problem??
Play a 4 hour set!! 
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| Mathijs |
Sir Stonesalot, that's some nice calculating -but done with your own made rules. First, the warhorses. Indeed, in a large stadium you most probably have to do:
1. Jumping Jack Flash
2 Satisfaction
3. Start Me Up
4. Honky Tonk Women
5. Brown Sugar
6. YCAGWYW
7. Sympathy For The Devil
8. Jumping Jack Flash
9. IORR
That's 9 tracks. Add 2 tracks for Keith, and it leaves you with 13 tracks you can alter.
But for an arena show, you can evene alter more songs, as you only have to play:
1. Honky Tonk Women
2. Brown Sugar
3. Jumping Jack Flash
Add two great and rare keith tracks, and then you have 17 tracks you can alter with.
But this is not my point: the beginning of the tour started with some great songs, e.g. Hand of fate. This songs hasn't been played since 1977, and is just great to hear. Now a track like Monkey Man is played -but haven't we heard this track already 100 times in 94/95?
Last: I will only visit Vredenburg and Ahoy, Holland, Astoria, London and Olympia, Paris. I will not attend any stadium shows, as I am finished watching and listening to Chuck Leavell doing the warhorses. With the club gigs I hope to see the real Stones with some rarities.
Mathijs
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| dealer squealing |
Yeah great that you could get ticket to club show but not everybody has been so lucky i only got Arena ticket.
I cant see why the Stones could not satisfy 90 % of the people with playing 10 warhorses 2 keith numbers, 7 semi known songs(Dead Flowers, Rocks off..) and 3 rarities(She smiled sweetly, Lies,Through the Lonely nights, Soul Survivor)??? |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
I keep forgetting that you are a European Mathy. Your english is so good, probably better than mine.
I suppose that there is a difference in the European audience, and the US crowd. It would not surprise me to find that there is a larger proportion of "hardcore" fans to "Hot Rocks" fans in Euro audiences.
HOWEVER!
The Stones are still here in N Am. They are playing to US crowds. I KNOW these crowds....I've been in enough of them. I'm telling you, they want the warhorses. If the Stones play too many "nuggets" folks will walk away saying..."I payed $100.00 to see a bunch of stuff I never heard? This is bullshit! I can't believe I didn't get to hear Satisfaction!"
Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that this tour is in support of a GREATEST HITS package. I grant you that we all would rather have had an album with new material. But that is NOT what we got. It's over and done. 40 Licks is what we got, and there is no changing it.
Given that, please tell me why the Stones should NOT do GREATEST HITS shows in support of a GREATEST HITS package? If you think that people don't want to hear the warhorses, I say that, clearly, the success of 40 Licks worldwide shows that people WANT those warhorses. And why not? Sure, you and I have heard all that stuff thousands of times...but the Stones are NOT playing to us Mathy. I still say that the Stones TRY to keep the "hardcore" fans happy. CYHMK, being a prime example.
Others have made mention of the Stones greed. I don't think it's greed. I call it playing the game well. Could YOU turn down that kind of cash? We are not talking a small amount of cash either....we are talking an amount larger than some NATION'S GNP! The Stones would be FOOLS if they didn't take advantage of the situation. And if you say that you'd do anything different in the same situation, you are fucking lying. NO ONE can shun that kind of jack.
The Rolling Stones do not owe us anything. Let that sink in. Because we buy some CDs and concert tickets does not empower us to run the Rolling Stones. We get what we pay for....great music. If you think you are "owed" anything else, you are deluding yourself. |
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| Moonisup |
For the first time ever! Go nuts with mick jagger
that is what is all about |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Go get 'em Rik!
To quote the Violent Femmes: Dance Motherfucker, Dance! |
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| Jumping Jack |
Mathijs,
I can honestly say that I wouldn't want to hear one of the songs you listed. If I spent $300 for a ticket and got that selection I would never be back.
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| Sir Stonesalot |
You know, the other thing to think about is...those "warhorses" are some of the greatest rock and roll songs ever written! I mean, look at that list of songs. Each one of those songs is a big slice of rock & roll history.
If you are gonna do a big world tour, in front of hundreds of thousands of PAYING fans...wouldn't you want to do your best material?
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| telecaster |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
You know, the other thing to think about is...those "warhorses" are some of the greatest rock and roll songs ever written! I mean, look at that list of songs. Each one of those songs is a big slice of rock & roll history.
If you are gonna do a big world tour, in front of hundreds of thousands of PAYING fans...wouldn't you want to do your best material?
Sir is right on target. Just saw them last night and it
was all Hot Rocks but the house was jammin and that is what
it is all about.
I took my niece to her first Stones show and she said there
is no point in ever going to another concert in her life
after last night.
That says it all |
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| Mr T |
eh, I can't complain. Actually, I was damn impressed by the HBO setlist. How many bands half as big as the Stones would throw in as many rarities as 'Licks'. Count 'em: Knocking, If You Can't Rock Me, Monkey Man, Rambler, Bleed, Whip, You Got Me Rocking, Thru & Thru. People who only know them from radio would only know Start Me Up, Shelter, HTW, Satisfaction, Brown Sugar, IORR, Sympathy, JJ Flash. Angie, SFM & Tumbling Dice are kinda doubtful that the majority of the HBO audience would be really familiar with, as big hits as they were in their day.
If they do more theaters - you can hear more rarities. Personally, I could do without Dance Pt. 1. I'm in no way in favor of a Hot Rocks setlist - in fact I really wanna hear Stray Cay Blues & Hand Of Fate, but how many other bands that take this much liberty with their sets as it is?
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| Angiegirl |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
I will only visit Vredenburg and Ahoy, Holland, Astoria, London and Olympia, Paris. I will not attend any stadium shows, as I am finished watching and listening to Chuck Leavell doing the warhorses. With the club gigs I hope to see the real Stones with some rarities.
Good for you Matthijs. I'm going to Vredenburg too. However, a club gig performance doesn't necessarily mean 'a better show'. Like in Philly I think it was (where the arena or stadium show was considered to be better than the club show by many fans), or the Giants Stadium show in NJ which was a surprisingly good show for a stadium. I just mean, hearing 'rearities'can be dissatisfying too when the show lacks musical quality or passion, whatever.
I also hope they will play the mentioned songs again on new tour legs. I really do! I will be disappointed too when I've heared only warhorses in my 6 shows after this summer. |
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| CousinCocaine |
To me Mathijs is quite right.
However you turn it - they started with nice changing setlists and quite some nuggets. (P.Woman, Dance, Don't look back,etc. were played really great!). And those were the same American audiences and they loved them!
And now for weeks they do those V.L.sets without any real surprise . .
If it'll be the same in Europe (and we get mainly stadiums!)I won't be too delighted !
CC |
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| Hooked |
I'm mixed on this topic. Most people aren't going to mulitple shows, so they're going to play the warhorses. And those songs are fun to hear. I never put Satisfaction on the CD/record player anymore, but both versions i heard at MSG last week kicked ass, with lots of audience participation. Actually, that song was the biggest surprise of the shows for me, how much i enjoyed it. And I love, for example, singing "She blew my news and they she blew my mind" during HTW.
But they could drop one or two of those a night and mix it up a little more. They've got such a huge number of good songs they don't play much, if at all, which i've always thought is strange. The show would not suffer momentum with one or two more of these.
And some more non-warhorses could be played in stadiums. I saw them play Rocks Off at RFK Stadium in 94, and it came off great.
But, they rocked last week at MSG. BTW, Midnight Rambler blew me away both nights. |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
CousinCocaine...
Those songs that you mentioned were played in the theaters. The people at those shows were, for the most part, the "hardcore" fans. The other people at those shows, those who were there for the event only, left early. The venues were packed, extremely hot, and you couldn't get close to the bar...or the bathrooms. The Stones were playing a bunch of songs that the "in" crowd didn't know....and they left. Which, IMO was good. Made more room for me and sirmoonie.
Mathy will get his wish...if he is going to the club shows only, he'll get his rare songs.
Stadiums and arenas will get greatest hits. The Stones simply can't play theatre setlists at a stadium or arena. Dream if you want, but that's all it is. |
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| tumblingdice |
What people fail to see when they say " I hope I don't get all warhorses at my 6 shows" is this. The Stones are not your personal band. They don't know that YOU are going to all these shows and even if they did they will not and should not set the set list just for you. Can you hear Keith say " Damn that cat was at the other 4 shows let's play a bunch of rare songs just for him." Really even the war horses are the greatest songs in Rock. I am glad to hear them. Not that I would not like an all rare songs show but it just ain't gonna happen. But even at the only show I was fortunate enough to attend in person this tour there were at least 5 songs I have never heard live in person before with CYHMK being one of them. |
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| Angiegirl |
quote:
tumblingdice wrote:
...The Stones are not your personal band. They don't know that YOU are going to all these shows and even if they did they will not and should not set the set list just for you...Really even the war horses are the greatest songs in Rock. I am glad to hear them. Not that I would not like an all rare songs show but it just ain't gonna happen...
Sure, you're right on both accounts. But you are black and white in your thinking. We were trying to be realistic, sorry if you didn't get that. It's you that's jumping from all warhorses to all rare songs.
You say 'they're not gonna change the setlist to satisfy my personal wishes' etc. Well, DUH!! Not asking them to. But there still is a difference between 6 shows of JUST warhorses and 6 shows (which are 3 stadiums, 2 arenas and 1 club for me btw) with SOME more obscure songs. And yes, I am talking about songs like CYHMK. I'm dying to hear that, really. Not talking about unrealisticly obscure songs. Remember that most venues in Jan and Feb this year are arenas, not stadiums. We all know what they promised: different setlists for different venues. That started out fantastic. But now there is little change in songs in the present arenas. That's the nuance I'm talking about. I don't expect them to play 5 or 10 lesser known songs each show, of course not. Clearly I wasn't talking about an 'all rare songs show', coz i may be blonde, but I have a brain  .
I know they are a band of classics and I sincerely enjoy hearing those songs too, every time. And I know they focus mainly on the masses, they have to. Sure.
So, don't gimme that 'The Stones are not your personal band. They don't know that YOU are going to all these shows and even if they did they will not and should not set the set list just for you' shit when I already said I appreciate what they're doing in regular sets. If there is anybody without the 'they owe me' attitude, it's me. I wish it was July 7 already.
[Edited by Angiegirl] |
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| tumblingdice |
Angiegirl my post was not directed at you although it appears I did get the 6 show thing from you I see after I reread the thread. I could have sworn I was bitching at Mathijs. But really with the shows you listed I am sure you will get plenty or rare songs. Even the Stadiums have one or two. In fact with you having clubs and arena also you should be happy unless they totally change the way they have been playing so far. It seems more set in now as mostly arenas are being played since they started back January and it seems worse after the month break as I am sure most people expected more songs to be dusted off and played after the break. Didn't happen and now it seems worse. But really I am happy with the sets being played. Not only what is being played but how it's being played. Just GREAT!!!! But it would be nice if we could all ( us real fans) have a special show just for us and all the rare songs we love could be played making some of the others (war horses) the rare song!! Just one show and see what it is like. I bet alot of us would be at least a little disappointed of not hearing an old favorite war horse then to though !!! LOL It is great that the band we love has enough good songs that we can actually argue about this. What do fans of..oh say REO Speedwagon argue over?!!! |
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| mattb |
Go back and read the interviews before the tour started. No one promised different set-lists for different venues. What Mick said about theme nights is they would like to try to do theme nights in the arenas in the cities where they are also playing stadiums and theaters/clubs. |
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| padre |
One day The Stones will have enough of our whining and give a true warhorsefree gig for all us true fans:
1. Sing This All Together (what a show starter!)
2. The Singer Not The Song
3. I Just Want To See His Face
4. Too Tough
5. Sex Drive
(long version with the bass player from Level 42 as a guest. A bass solo from him.)
6. Moon Is Up
7. Yesterday's Papers
8. Terryfying
9. Feel On Baby (extra long version)
10. Emotional Rescue
12. Too Much Blood
(with the show opener Shaggy doing the talk verses)
13. In Another Land
(with a special appearance from Bill Wyman!)
14. Back To Zero (Matt Clifford guesting in this Dirty Work theme night)
15. Fight
16. Winning Ugly
17. Losing My Touch
18. Sleep Tonight (a very long version where Keef actually falls asleep in the middle of the song, gets waken when the rest move to the small stage)
The band moves to small stage during Chuck Leavell's piano solo number
the small stage with a reggae theme:
19. Send It To Me
20. Cherry Oh Baby
21. Hey Negrita
Back to main stage:
22.Something Happened To Me Yesterday
encore
23.We Love You
How about that for a show, folks! |
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