| November 6th, 2005 02:38 PM |
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| Gazza |
Brian Jones: Who killed the Rolling Stones guitarist?
Officially, he died by accident. But rumours about the Rolling Stones guitarist's death won't go away. Now, an explosive new theory may prove it was murder, says Steve Bloomfield
Published: 06 November 2005
In the Beechwood shopping centre in the centre of Cheltenham, sits an empty glass case. A bust of Brian Jones, one of the founders of the Rolling Stones, was unveiled here in his hometown in July, but within three months it had been removed. Jones died in July, 1969, aged just 27. He was found drowned in his swimming pool at Cotchford Farm in Sussex, which was the former home of Winnie the Pooh creator, AA Milne. A verdict of "death by misadventure" was recorded by the coroner. A cocktail of drink and drugs was said to be in his bloodstream.
The bust, even before it was put on display, was far from popular. It had been paid for with subscription fees from the Brian Jones Fan Club which had been wound up in 2003. But local paper the Gloucestershire Echo couldn't find many local people happy with the idea, while an editorial in the Western Daily Press proclaimed: "Addict is no role-model for spa town".
At the ceremony to unveil the statue, the shopping centre's public-address system played a series of Rolling Stones tracks from the 1970s - all written and recorded after Jones's death. Worse was to come. The cloth covering the bust was removed, to gasps of disbelief from the die-hard fans who had travelled from all over the country for the occasion. The head beared little resemblance to Jones and was a rather bizarre shade of green. Yet this was nothing compared to the hair. In a bid to recreate Jones's golden mop, a bright yellow thatch clung to the bust's scalp. It was, claimed one fan, as if someone had plonked an omelette on his head. Fan messageboards hummed with outrage. "Would some vandal kindly paint it black?" pleaded one. "It is hideous," claimed several. "It is so dreadful it is almost funny," cried another.
The bust was quietly removed last month, although David Reynolds, who ran the original fan club and was responsible for commissioning the bust, has said this is simply so that it can be re-cast in bronze. Whether the omelette will stay or not is another matter.
For those who cling to the memory of Jones, this farcical episode is no surprise. Jones was one of the style icons of the 1960s. He was not afraid to wear women's clothes or jewellery, while his long, golden hair put the Beatles' more conservative mop-tops firmly in the shade. Jones did not just play the guitar but also the piano, sitar and xylophone, among others. He played with Jimi Hendrix and counted Bob Dylan among his group of friends.
But since his death in 1969, Jones has slipped from public consciousness. Jagger, Richards, Wyman and Watts are now worth more than £100m each, their never-ending world tours are always sold out, and even their new material has found an appreciative audience. For Stones fans who found the band after 1969, Jones never existed. The remaining band members rarely talk about him. In a recent interview with Q magazine, Keith Richards was asked if he could bring anyone back from the dead, who would it be? His immediate answer was the American blues musician, Muddy Waters. When the interviewer mentioned Jones, Richards replied: "Oh, I wouldn't want to bring him back. He was an arsehole."
Just weeks before his death, Jones was sacked from the band he had founded and named. His part in Stones history has been all but wiped from the group's official version of events. But that may change. A new feature film, Stoned, to be released this month, will tell the story of Brian Jones' life and death. Directed by Stephen Woolley, producer of The Crying Game, it could prove controversial. Woolley contends that Jones was killed by Frank Thorogood, his builder. Woolley claims that Thorogood was owed £8,000 by Jones and held him under water in an attempt to scare him into paying, but held on too long and accidentally drowned the guitarist in his swimming pool.
Woolley hired a private detective to track down Janet Lawson, the girlfriend of the Stones' road manager. She was at Cotchford Farm on the night Jones died. According to Lawson, Jones had just sacked Thorogood, which caused the builder to get "out of control". Several books written by close friends and former girlfriends also claim that Jones was murdered. It is also claimed that Thorogood admitted responsibility on his deathbed in 1993. But one conspiracy theory is never enough for a celebrity death. So here is another. It involves a first love, a Beatles fan, a cold case investigation team, a television psychic, and the possible exhumation of Jones's body.
Pat Andrews was 15 when she first met Brian Jones. She agreed to meet him in the Aztec coffee bar in Cheltenham where she worked as a waitress. It was, she says, a favour for a friend who said Jones had returned from Germany and didn't have any friends left in the spa town where he had grown up.
A stylish 60-year-old with dyed red hair, Andrews giggles and blushes at the memory. "I can still see him now - ooh, I'm getting all hot and flushed!" Jones was just 17 at the time and, unbeknown to Andrews, had already managed to get at least one former girlfriend pregnant. Their affair lasted for four years and they had a son, christened Julian Mark Andrews (although he is known as Mark rather than Julian), when Pat was just 17. "It all went gloriously until October 1961 when I gave birth. I hadn't realised I was pregnant until seven months in - I thought it was a tumour.
"Brian came to see me in the nursing home. He sold a number of his treasured records to buy me flowers and a skirt and jumper, which was rather sweet."
But Jones did not want to stay in Cheltenham - he wanted to make music. Mother and son followed Jones to London, where they stayed in a series of one-room bedsits while he tried to make it in the music business. From time to time they stayed in the same flat in Edith Grove as Mick Jagger and Keith Richards.
However, the relationship did not last. "In the summer of 1962, Brian's insecurity got too much," says Andrews. "I came from a small town where you say hello to people on the street - I didn't realise you didn't do that in London. He thought I was flirting with every male. I couldn't stand it anymore. I left him."
Pat and Mark returned to London in spring 1963 as the Stones were starting to make a name for themselves. Bill Wyman had joined the band ("I remember him turning up at the audition in a shoestring tie and crêpe trousers - he was just like a teddy boy") and the band were playing in clubs and pubs every night.
It was also around this time they first met the Beatles. Andrews was asked to meet them at the door because the Stones were still on stage. "The Stones were my friends," she says. "But the Beatles... My legs were shaking, my heart was in my mouth, I thought I was going to trip over or dribble." Both bands went to Mick and Keith's flat, with Andrews taking a lift in the Beatles' van, giving directions to Paul McCartney.
But it wasn't long before Andrews and Jones fell out again. "We were more or less friends by then, rather than lovers. Brian was alone. Mick and Keith had their mums - they would come up and do their laundry and cook them food. Brian had nobody. The only person who really knew him was me. I accepted him for who he was, not because he was going to be famous."
There was always other women around, but it was a relationship with one girl, who Andrews considered to be a friend, that proved to be the final straw. "I knew I couldn't trust him as far as I could throw him - he was like a cat on heat. But this was different. I felt it was a terrible betrayal on his part. It was just the wrong person for him to get involved with."
At the end of 1963, Andrews took Mark back to Cheltenham to bring him up at her parents' house. She saw Jones just once more before his death - a Stones gig in Cheltenham in 1964, during their first UK tour.
"Brian said, 'Once we've done the tour I'll contact you at your mum's'." He never did. Andrews blames the Stones "machine". "He got caught up in this hedonistic lifestyle. He had been brought up in Cheltenham and smothered by his parents - now he was king of the hill. What young man wants to come back to Cheltenham? I am not excusing him - I know he should have come back - but I can understand."
Not only did Jones not come to Cheltenham, he also provided little in the way of maintenance for his son. Andrews was offered £1.50 a week and had to go to court to force it up to £2.50. A further kick in the teeth was provided when Linda Lawrence, Jones' latest girlfriend, gave birth to a son. He was christened Julian - the same first name Andrews had given her son.
Following Jones' death, Andrews got on with her life. She has had "several" serious relationships, but is currently single. "I expect too much of people," she says. "I set my standards too high but I don't think I consciously compare other people to Brian. Over the last few years it has dawned on me that I don't really need anybody. And how can I turn round to someone and say I'm off to do something to do with Brian?"
She started doing voluntary work and organised after-school programmes run by Ken Livingstone's Greater London Council, until the authority was scrapped by Margaret Thatcher in 1986. Since then, Andrews has continued working with children, but she prefers not to go into details. "I feel like I have two separate lives and I want to keep it that way."
By 1995, despite more than 30 years passing since she last saw him, Andrews returned to her first love. She set up the Brian Jones Fan Club as a means to help change people's attitudes towards the forgotten Stone. "The 'death by misadventure' verdict was iffy to say the least. There was this terrible stigma surrounding Brian. He was described as a drug-induced guitarist, which is like saying Van Gogh was just a painter."
For the past decade, Andrews has struggled to change that image, campaigning for Sussex police to re-open the case. The appeal has, thus far, fallen on deaf ears, but that may change.
Trevor Hobley was working in the United States as a writer's researcher in 1997 working on a book about Brian Jones. Knowing very little about him, Hobley travelled to Britain to meet Andrews. The pair quickly became friends and towards the end of 2002, he met other members of the fan club.
At the time, Andrews was unhappy with the club's direction. On Jones's birthday, 28 February 2003, the club's organiser, David Reynolds announced he was closing it down. Hobley had already started work on a website so when Andrews asked him to start up a new club, he said yes. "I spent the first three months looking at all the evidence that had been put together. When you look at it logically it quickly becomes clear that there was something terribly wrong," he says.
Over the next two-and-a-half years Hobley compiled a 150-page dossier that he and Andrews believe prove that Jones was murdered. As well as painstakingly piecing together evidence from autopsy reports and witness statements made at the time, Hobley has also tracked down one of the police officers who originally investigated Jones's death.
"A whole different scenario has reared it ugly head. There are witnesses from the time who have since disappeared, statements made that were ignored. If Brian was murdered there must have been some sort of cover up from a fairly high level. They would have had to influence the police investigation, the medical records, the coroner's report."
The smoking gun, Hobley claims, is a new witness - a man who was at Cotchford Farm in the six weeks prior to Jones's death and was by his side two hours before he died. Hobley refuses to reveal the man's identity, but says "some people" clearly know who he is. "He and his family have been threatened. They are very frightened people."
Hobley dismisses the theory put forward by the new film. "I believe Brian was rendered unconscious in the music room in Cotchford Farm, carried outside the house and held upside down with his head in a trough of water, where he drowned. He was in swimming trunks when the ambulance men arrived but I do not believe he was in the swimming pool." Instead, he argues, the men who killed Jones put him in his trunks to make it appear as if he had drowned.
The dossier is, Hobley admits, the work of a fan. So last year, he says, he turned to a private, cold-case style investigation team - "Just like in programmes like Waking the Dead or CSI," he says. The company, which Hobley refuses to name, is staffed by former Thames Valley and Metropolitan Police officers and Home Office pathologists.
"If my theory was right," says Hobley, "there could still be a crime scene at Cotchford Farm." A former Home Office forensic scientists spent six hours at Cotchford Farm last year carrying out an investigation of the fire place searching for traces of blood. The cold-case team have cut Hobley's dossier down to a more manageable 19 pages ("they have taken out the passion, compassion and idolatory") and presented Sussex Police with eight reasons why the coroner's original verdict is unsafe. Andrews and Hobley are now awaiting a response.
The best way to prove the verdict was unsafe, Andrews says, is to exhume Jones's body. "I don't know if it is a good thing, but it may be the only way to clear up what happened to Brian. The truth is never going to be told by those who know - the only way to solve it is by Brian talking himself. It would be very nice for Brian to have the last word."
Despite being buried 36 years ago, there is a chance that the body has been well preserved. In the late 1990s, Andrews tracked down an employee at a funeral parlour in Cheltenham that had received the body. It was originally taken to a parlour in East Grinstead where it was embalmed and Jones's hair bleached white, before being transferred to Cheltenham where it was buried. "It will be in very good condition," says Hobley. "All sorts of tests could be carried out."
Andrews' desire to prove Jones was murdered does not stop at conventional methods such as asking the police to re-open the case. She has also turned to cable television psychic, Tony Stockwell. In his Living TV programme earlier this year, The Psychic Detective, Stockwell wandered around Cotchford Farm surmising on how Jones died. According to the psychic, two men gave Jones a huge injection of drugs and dumped him in the pool, where his lungs filled up with water and he drowned. Two other men, who had planned the whole operation, looked on.
"It was awful," remembers Andrews. "I had to switch off and imagine it was somebody else he was talking about. It is like an ulcer. If you touch it, it is sore. You have to become detached."
Hobley, 55, has staked everything on proving Jones was murdered. He won't say exactly how much the case has cost. It is five figures, not quite six. He does not work ("I'm working on Brian Jones 24/7") and has exhausted his entire savings. Jones was the driving force behind his band at the height of the Stones vs Beatles battles, so it is perhaps fitting that the Beatles have funded Hobley's fight. "I had a wonderful Beatles memorabilia collection. I have had to sell it all."
For both Andrews and Hobley, Brian Jones is their life. Andrews' eyes light up when she reminisces about her first love, in a way they don't when she discusses teaching. The manner of his death clearly still affects her. When Hobley recounts his theory of how Jones was murdered, Andrews nervously rearranges the coffee mugs, milk jug and flowers in front of her on the table into a straight line. "I find it difficult, yes, but I need to know the truth. We must stick to our mission - to get justice and the truth for Brian. I know it sounds silly, but I don't know what the truth is yet. I just want to know how he died." s
The film 'Stoned' is released on 18 November
[Edited by Gazza] |
| November 6th, 2005 03:17 PM |
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| Dick Bush |
Who would ever kill a broke, jobless guy having nothing else left but a big liver?
For what?
http://www.keithrichards.com/56/159.wmv |
| November 6th, 2005 09:14 PM |
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| GhostofBrianJones |
Well I put my response in the wrong category~sorry about that.
Thanks for posting that article on BJ. |
| November 7th, 2005 03:38 AM |
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| Doxa |
Good that they have removed the "statue".
- Doxa |
| November 7th, 2005 03:59 AM |
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| beer |
The bust was a bust.
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| November 7th, 2005 02:12 PM |
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| stewed & Keefed |
Thanks Gazza |
| November 8th, 2005 05:23 AM |
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| Mathijs |
It's quite pitiful if the only thing you ever succeeded to in your live is that you got banged up by Brian Jones.
Mathijs |
| November 8th, 2005 07:04 AM |
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| Dick Bush |
Have a look on Keef-Brian interaction:
http://channeledbymodem.com/realaudio/rsgbabe_rtsp.ram
Keef just can't forget he was once treated like a trash can.
No wonder he is still name calling. |
| November 10th, 2005 05:40 PM |
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| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
Who would ever kill a broke, jobless guy having nothing else left but a big liver?
For what?
http://www.keithrichards.com/56/159.wmv
hmmmmmmm
I don't know, perhaps Allen Klein and Tom Keylock perhaps?
hmmmmm
Because Mr. Jones owned the rights to the name "The Rolling Stones" and that Klein made no secret of his hatred of the man?
Jobless? Funny, seeing as Hendrix, Lennon, Humble Pie, Alexis Korner etc. were knocking at his door.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
It's quite pitiful if the only thing you ever succeeded to in your live is that you got banged up by Brian Jones.
Mathijs
How about raising a child on her own and being a teacher?
Stupid fuck
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
Have a look on Keef-Brian interaction:
http://channeledbymodem.com/realaudio/rsgbabe_rtsp.ram
Keef just can't forget he was once treated like a trash can.
No wonder he is still name calling.
Oh is that so?
Who was the one who recruited Keith, then had his band, music and girl stolen from him?
Who was the one who got picked on 24/7 by the ever-so valiant and upstanding Mick and Keith? |
| November 10th, 2005 06:23 PM |
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| Dick Bush |
quote:
The Porkchop Express wrote:
Oh is that so?
Who was the one who recruited Keith, then had his band, music and girl stolen from him?
Who was the one who got picked on 24/7 by the ever-so valiant and upstanding Mick and Keith?
Porky,
I don't know how do you call the chick bashers, but this guy was verifiably one of those... He even forgot his first kid's name and never spent a single buck for any of of his other kids. A real jerk, sorry.
Nobody ever shaked his ass like Mick - he and Keef would have made it without lil Brian too, don't worry.
I guess Keef must have had a real reason for recalling a dead man that way, all that after so many years.
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| November 10th, 2005 07:02 PM |
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| JOHNNYSTONED |
both sides are right about brian jones. he was a selfish
immature and violent young man. he was also cool in many ways. he attracted the most beautiful women- he played the most instruments-he was a walking encyopedia of the blues
and his ambition and vision helped create the rolling stones. as a kid i loved and idolized the big 3 mick-keith and brian equally. they were a three headed monster that created an image of hipness and danger that made rock and roll seem dangerous and exotic and i loved them for that.
however brian fell from his perch in rock and roll stardom
and died. he was the first rock and roll martyr. the stones are so bad ass that one of them died!!and i and millions ate it up. but was he a great person? probably not. but lets be honest i dont love them for being nice people.do i think keith richards is neccesarily a nice person? does he have the right to taunt and make fun of brian when i have read that his 7 year old son had to take care of him while he was writhing on the floor going thru heroin withdrawal? how many people have fallen by the wayside or had to take care of big bad keith when he was so screwed up he didnt even know his own name. keith himself said it took the mounties hours to wake him from his drug stupor. in the seventies keith was voted the most likely rock star to die next. he lived off and cashed in on that image.it made him seem cool and dangerous. he followed the same path as brian jones he just didnt cash it in. criticize brian all you want just remember keith was a follower and not a leader. mick and keith aare like
the terrell owens of rock and roll. hey your band mate is dead. he died young and made many mistakes. let it go.neither of you two have lived an exemplary spirtual life. why continue to trash somebody to make yourself look better. |
| November 10th, 2005 07:26 PM |
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| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
Porky,
I don't know how do you call the chick bashers, but this guy was verifiably one of those... He even forgot his first kid's name and never spent a single buck for any of of his other kids. A real jerk, sorry.
Nobody ever shaked his ass like Mick - he and Keef would have made it without lil Brian too, don't worry.
I guess Keef must have had a real reason for recalling a dead man that way, all that after so many years.
He and Anita had violent sex and she also beat badly beat him.
He forgot his first son's name? He never spent a single cent on his children? Please, keep speaking shit, straight out of your ass.
Julian Mark Andrews: "It gives me a thrill and a buzz to know he's my dad. I'd by lying to you to say otherwise. And yet there's this other part of me that turns away and I don't want to know. I want to be me for myself. I can't remember dad at all. The first time I heard him speak was on an old Ready Steady Go! clip and when I watch him on TV I have these feelings, sort of a twin syndrome thing. On the one hand he's the dad I never had, so I have this sense of loss. I try not to let it rule my life, but I do feel it. But I love being his son."
Julian Mark Andrews: "Without offspring's pride, I rate him very high. When you think of what he did acheive, can you imagine what he'd be doing now? He was a multi-instrumentalist. I mean people like Clapton are good lead guitarists. But dad was a musician!"
Julian Mark Andrews: "Why Brian is often classed as a bastard is this. He made his hobby, his life. It was his passion and he was successful at it. People don't like that. It aggravates them. If you make a career out of your love it's too single-minded and when they don't share your passion, they feel left out."
Julian Mark Andrews: "When he wasn't able to look after himself, I can't understand why they didn't help him. They say the band is a family. So how can it be like a marriage when you stand by and watch your partner dissolve away and do nothing."
Julian Mark Andrews: "Alexis told me all about dad then, about how hard he was working and how well he was. So I have never accepted the image people have portrayed of him."
Julian Mark Andrews: "It almost provided a gem in a way. Today the Stones are still going on the strength of their sixties image. But that's my dad's image. I mean they draw on his imagery. And dad exterted an incredible influence over people."
Julian Brian Jones: "I'm very proud of my father, I love him deeply."
Julian Brian Jones: "I've written a few songs, a couple of them for Brian. One's called 'Heavy Inside' which is all about dad and my feelings one the way he's been treated."
Julian Brian Jones on the horrendous abuse that he's had to stand by and see heaped on his father over the years:
"I'm not saying it hasn't hurt, because it has. But then what can you do? Life's hard."
Julian Brian Jones: "I remember meeting dad once when I was very little, I was frightened and crying and dad picked me up high in his arms. I can always remember his face as he hugged me close. Sometimes if I need to, I shut my eyes and I can bring that moment back."
Just remember, when you trash Jones and continue to perpetuate the myths about him, you're really just hurting Mark and Julian who are fed up with the bullshit.
Oh would they? Mick and Keith would have "made it"? Um, well, let me fill you in: when the three of them were living together in Edith Grove, Mick was still attending to his studies at the London School of Economics. He had serious doubt's about Brian's band and ambitions. While Brian was out promoting the band, getting gigs, writing all the trade magazines, etc. Keith was lying around the house all day and Mick of course was at school. If Brian didn't recruit them into his band, Mick would have become an accountant, and Keith probably would have ended up as a petty thug, maybe even eventually behind bars. And trust me, I'm not worried.
Yeah, Keith likes to change his stories a lot over the years. It's funny to watch, also because he can barely play the guitar anymore.
[Edited by The Porkchop Express] |
| November 11th, 2005 12:17 AM |
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| GhostofBrianJones |
Thanks to all who stand up for Brian Jones. Brian was a victim of
the asinine thinking of the Sixties which most of you do not even
remember, but I DO!!!
Now, look at Ronnie Wood. If the Stones knew then what they
know now, they MAY have actually treated Brian a LOT different.
Ronnie is a raging drug addict and an alcoholic. I am one too.
Been straight for about 10 years. I drank and abused prescribed
downers for as along as Keith did. Cannot handle uppers whatsoever. Now Ronnie has been through rehab more than
once, and has is from what I understand is
attempting to stop smoking. During the last 40 years of being on the road and with all their wild ups and downs, they have I would like to think come to realize that Brian had a DISEASE not a weakness. No one starts out drinking with full intentions of becoming addicted to booze.
With Brian's children, Brian again was not MADE to pay child
support and he was so messed up that he could not even take care of himself much less 5 children. No one ever approached
Brian and talked to him about being a responsible father. At that
time the girl was more or less left on her own without any help from
the government or the father of the child. And some guys today
still do not accept this responsibility even they know damn well
the kid is theirs. During the sixties, a woman was either "forced"
to get married, gave up the baby for adoption as was Dawn Malloy's case or possibly lived in "exile" with maybe help coming
from her parents if she was lucky.
It has been confusing for me to actually figure out what Keith's
real opinion on Brian is. There have been so many different
articles on what he feels about it that it is still a mystery. I love
the Rolling Stones too, but they are still reluctant to speak about
Brian, maybe because they feel their fans today do not really know
who he is, and like Leo Gregory maybe need to get to know who
he really is and what he did for the Stones. |
| November 11th, 2005 04:59 AM |
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| Dick Bush |
quote:
JOHNNYSTONED wrote:
mick and keith aare like
the terrell owens of rock and roll. hey your band mate is dead. he died young and made many mistakes. let it go.neither of you two have lived an exemplary spirtual life. why continue to trash somebody to make yourself look better.
Keef being a mediocrity? Heh! You must be kidding, right?
There are lots of video interviews on his website, the best ones are hidden, of course. Not very politically correct what he is talking there but somehow utterly sincere stuff - and much to my very surprise! - they gave me an impression of him as of the real brains of the Stones... Hellow!
If you would trust Bill's diary - and allow me to say that Bill was and still is the most down-to-earth person ever - you would get to know that Jones brutally bashed every single groupie! Why was that? Wasn't the disturbed, irascible lil man - who played so many instruments, but who will never be quoted as a quality guitar player, and who apparently wasn't able to keep the pace with Keef and Mick - nothing else but a plain obstacle for a band?
As I was a kid myself, Brian was "someone to die for", and he definitely has great merits not only for the image and success, but for the initial music of the Stones as well.
I am really not happy for having found out he really was an asshole, you may believe me. On the other side, I got to know that Keef and Mick weren't that nasty, soulles folks I thought they were.
For Keef bashers only: if you'll look closer on the Keef's fingers, you have to consider that someone has to be a REAL man to still play guitar. He must have terrible pains, all the time. Luckily, there are some new and efficient arthritis drugs like glucosamine and chondroitin - I am sure you'll listen Keef many, many years before he "drops" on the stage.
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| November 11th, 2005 10:51 AM |
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| gimmekeef |
Brians musical contribution as well as his steadfast belief that "There Must Be The Rolling Stones"...cant be minimalized in Stones history.A tragic case of burn out.Perhaps he truly was murdered and thats of course deplorable..but his lifestyle was leading him to deaths door too.... |
| November 11th, 2005 05:47 PM |
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| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
Keef being a mediocrity? Heh! You must be kidding, right?
There are lots of video interviews on his website, the best ones are hidden, of course. Not very politically correct what he is talking there but somehow utterly sincere stuff - and much to my very surprise! - they gave me an impression of him as of the real brains of the Stones... Hellow!
Yeah, and forty years later Keith is still trying to do the Chuck Berry thing. And as he ever written, arranged and composed anything remotely similar to Ruby Tuesday since then?
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
If you would trust Bill's diary - and allow me to say that Bill was and still is the most down-to-earth person ever - you would get to know that Jones brutally bashed every single groupie! Why was that? Wasn't the disturbed, irascible lil man - who played so many instruments, but who will never be quoted as a quality guitar player, and who apparently wasn't able to keep the pace with Keef and Mick - nothing else but a plain obstacle for a band?
Wow, you're so full of it. Yeah, Brian beat up every single groupie. Right. Then he made pig's fly, grew wings and his eyeballs shot red laser beams.
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
but who will never be quoted as a quality guitar player
Bo Diddley: "When I met Brian, he was playing slide guitar and harmonica. His slide guitar was great. Especially to be as young as he was. Brian was a little dude that was trying to pull the group ahead. I saw him as the leader. He didn't take no mess. He was a fantastic cat. He handled the group beautifully."
Keith Richards: "I've never heard anybody, before or since, get that Bo Diddley thing down. Diddley himself was astounded, saying that Brian was the only cat he knew who'd worked out the secret of it."
Keep living in your fantasy world. But yes, Brian sure was an obstacle for Andrew Loog Oldham, Mick and Keith...seeing as it took them a while to push him out, steal his leadership role, his band and music. Oh, can't forget how they picked on him and tormented him all the time. Great friends indeed. (Keith even admitted this in an interview with Playboy magazine, how they were "merciless" towards him). And then how Oldham would pretend to record Brian and leave him in the studio for hours. Yeah, Oldham was so great. He would go on to desert them when in '67 when they were busted for drugs. Oldham was having the time of his life in L.A., while Mick, Keith and Brian thought they would be serving jail time.
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
I am really not happy for having found out he really was an asshole, you may believe me. On the other side, I got to know that Keef and Mick weren't that nasty, soulles folks I thought they were.
Of course Brian at times could be a little shit and very difficult. But look at this way: before and after his time in The Rolling Stones, he was a normal person. He was happy, relaxed, content. It was only during his time in the Stones that he and his life was miserable. Instead of believing every single word of revisionist b.s., or the outright lies that Mick and Keith tell, why not try picking up a book or three and learning the truth. Read Golden Stone. It's the most accurate, unbiased and honest book about Brian Jones.
But you know, about Mick and Keith: if they weren't such assholes, then why did they treat Mick Taylor the same as they treated Brian Jones? Why couldn't Taylor get his songwriting credits? Why did Keith have to be viciously cruel, nasty and pick on Taylor? Why did he have to threaten Taylor with violence? Why did Jagger often refer to Taylor as "boy"? Would Jagger ever refer to Keith as "boy"?
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
For Keef bashers only: if you'll look closer on the Keef's fingers, you have to consider that someone has to be a REAL man to still play guitar. He must have terrible pains, all the time. Luckily, there are some new and efficient arthritis drugs like glucosamine and chondroitin - I am sure you'll listen Keef many, many years before he "drops" on the stage.
Yeah, Keith sure is a "real man". A guy who stabs his friends in the back, picks on people, threatens them with violence and always has to get his own way. He can barely play the guitar anymore. I've read about him fucking up the intro of Brown Sugar more than once on this current tour. Brown Sugar. This is a song Keith should know in his sleep. You know, I'd love to show him how to play his own songs, but I don't think that Mr. "real man" would appreciate it much.
[Edited by The Porkchop Express] |
| November 11th, 2005 10:34 PM |
|
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| GhostofBrianJones |
Thanks again Pork Chop Express!! Outstanding as usual.
Speaking of books, Paint It Black and Who Killed Christopher
Robin are excellent as well.
Mick and Keith have been ruthless in their songwriting, not sharing
very much with other band members. The Glimmer Twins have
NO room to speak about Brian as they have had their share of
drugs/booze/sex and etc. as well. There are so many conflicting
articles about how the really feel about Brian that it is hard to sift
through to the truth. Underneath I think they cared about Brian
but were not able to help him because they did not know how
and with their hectic schedules, whirlwind tours, and being ripped
off by their Managers, friends and the media, it became impossible
to do very much.
But when they do speak of Brian and Mick Taylor they should
by all means show respect, gratitude and not trash someone who
is not here to defend themselves. |
| November 12th, 2005 09:11 AM |
|
|
| Dick Bush |
Porky,
"They were treating Brian badly, but they probably had good reason. He literally couldn't play his instrument anymore. Brian was simply being detrimental to the group and letting them know it. One night while they were jamming, Brian tried to play harp. He was real fucked up and his mouth started bleeding. It was all over then anyway.
- Jack Nitzsche"
from:
http://www.timeisonourside.com/
The other guys weren't supposed to be the nannies - they had their own troubles too.
|
| November 14th, 2005 07:30 PM |
|
|
| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
GhostofBrianJones wrote:
Speaking of books, Paint It Black and Who Killed Christopher
Robin are excellent as well.
no they're not, they're horrible
"Paint It Black" is shit: the author directly copied portions of Laura Jackson's "Golden Stone" and put them in his book.
"Who Killed Christopher Robin" is also shit: it's way too biased, it's full of errors and piss poor research. Rawlings makes no secret of his heavy bias. And he's also pretty racist towards Morrocans in it as well.
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
Porky,
"They were treating Brian badly, but they probably had good reason. He literally couldn't play his instrument anymore. Brian was simply being detrimental to the group and letting them know it. One night while they were jamming, Brian tried to play harp. He was real fucked up and his mouth started bleeding. It was all over then anyway.
- Jack Nitzsche"
from:
http://www.timeisonourside.com/
The other guys weren't supposed to be the nannies - they had their own troubles too.
Dicky,
"I always used to see Brian in the clubs and hang out with
him in the mid-sixties. He used to come out to my house
- particularly when he'd got the fear, when he'd mixed
too many weird things together. I'd hear his voice shouting
to me from out in the garden, 'George, George'.
I'd let him in. He was a good mate.
He would always come round my house in the sitar period.
We talked about 'Paint it Black' and he picked up my sitar
and tried to play it - and the next thing he did was that track.
We had a lot in common when I think about it.
We shared the same date of birth, or nearly, so he must
have been a pieces as well. We also shared positions in
the most prominent bands in the universe, him with
Mick and Keith, and me with Paul and John.
I think he related to me a lot and I liked him.
Some people didn't have time for him but I thought he
was one of the most interesting ones."
- Beatles Anthology p. 203
"When I met him I liked him quite a lot.
He was a good fellow you know. I got to know him very well,
I think, and I felt very close to him: you know how it is
with some people, you feel for them, feel near to them.
He was born on February 28, 1943, and I was born
on February 25, 1943, and he was with Mick and Keith,
and I was with John and Paul in the groups, so there was a
sort of understanding between the two of us.
The positions were similar, and I often seemed to meet him
in his times of trouble. There was nothing the matter with
him that a little extra love wouldn't have cured.
I don't think he had enough love or understanding.
He was very nice and sincere and sensitive,
and we must remember that's what he was."
- asked his reaction to Brian's death, newspaper report 1969.
Brian's harp playing on Beggar's was brilliant. And Nitzsche's quote is pathetic. 'Yeah, our friend has problems, so let's pick on him.'
Regardless, he can't excuse their brutal treatment of him in the early days. |
| November 15th, 2005 06:05 AM |
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| Mathijs |
I never met Brian. All I know about his personality is through interviews with other people, and all I can say is that he doesn't appear to be a nice person at all, which worsened due to him not being able to handle the fame and money. But, in a way that's understandable as you see this more often with people who made it big, either in music, film or even bussiness: you have to be a bit ruthless and cold to persuit your dream.
But there is a part that I do know a bit about, and that is about Brian's musical influence and abillities, as I am a semi-professional musician myself. As far as I see it there's Brian the popstar, and Brian the musician. Brian the Popstar is probably what made the Stones big. He was the first dandy, the first rebel, the first true Rock and Roll Star. Without him, the Stones would never have been so popular in the very early years. But as a musician, I don't have a very high esteem of him. He was a great harp player, but with all other instruments he was very mediocre, and he wasn't an original. People continue to say he was a multi-instrumentalist, but I find that very exaggerated. If you play decent guitar you'll find that most stringed instruments aren't that far away anymore. If you play paino, there's about 10 instruments -even as far as vibraphone- that aren't that hard to play decently anymore. Check out Paul McCartney's latest album, he plays at least 20 different instruments.
My biggest problem with Brian that he wasn't an original musically. Yes, he was ahead of his time with wanting to be a 50's blues player, but he has never been able to go beyond that. At the moment the Stones realised (actually: Oldham) that they needed their own, original work instead of endless covers Brian's role was finished. Brian just couldn't write any own, original material, and as a guitar player he was too mediocre to actually really add something to the songs by Jagger and Richards. He could play great counter riffs or rausing slide on blues classics, but I know not one Stones original that has great guitar work by Brian, except for No Expectations. People say that he was bored with the guitar and therefore he experimented with different instruments, but I just don't believe that. His only way of contributing to the Stones was with different instrumenst and vibes. That worked until 1966, but then his role was really over.
It was Brian who made the Stones being noticed in 1963, but it was Jagger/Richards song writing who made them survive 1964, and who made the Stones the biggest band in the world. Brian, and also Mick Taylor and Ron Wood, are only icing on the cake.
Mathijs |
| November 15th, 2005 06:08 AM |
|
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| Mathijs |
>Brian's harp playing on Beggar's was brilliant.
Brian doesn't play harp on Beggar's.
Mathijs |
| November 15th, 2005 10:28 AM |
|
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| jend |
doesn't Pat sound really pathetic (and Trevor desperate)- what will he do if his enquirey proves that Brian wasn't murdered and he's wasted all his money on it? |
| November 15th, 2005 02:19 PM |
|
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| Dick Bush |
Porky,
Why the tattling?
Go straight to http://www.timeisonourside.com and lose all your illusions. |
| November 15th, 2005 05:50 PM |
|
|
| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
I never met Brian. All I know about his personality is through interviews with other people, and all I can say is that he doesn't appear to be a nice person at all, which worsened due to him not being able to handle the fame and money.
Well, first of all, if you're going on the accounts of Keith and Mick, then forget it. They've told so many lies, bullshit and tried re-write history over the years it's pathetic. A pathetic joke.
Of course Brian was difficult. He could be a little shit. Andrew Loog Oldham, Mick, Keith and the London Police made sure that Brian's life was pure hell while he was in the Stones. ALO, Mick and Keith conspired, all ganged up on him, picked on him (Keith admitted in an interview with Playboy that they were "merciless" towards him) and stole his band and music away from him. So Brian was miserable. How could you blame him? But you know what? Before the Stones, and after, he was normal. He was relaxed, content and happy. When he quit the Stones he had also quit drugs for good. He was paranoid of the police and their constant harrassment of him did a great deal of mental damage.
The truth is, everyone outside of the Stones organization really liked Brian. Why do you think that all of these incredible musicians and songwriters, were knocking on Brian's door and wanted to collaborate and play with him? Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Steve Marriot, Peter Frampton, Steve Winwood, Alexis Korner and on and on.
I think I need to re-post that George Harrison quote, seeing as you obviously didn't read it. Or you did and it didn't really sink into your head at all.
"I always used to see Brian in the clubs and hang out with
him in the mid-sixties. He used to come out to my house
- particularly when he'd got the fear, when he'd mixed
too many weird things together. I'd hear his voice shouting
to me from out in the garden, 'George, George'. I'd let him in. He was a good mate.
He would always come round my house in the sitar period.
We talked about 'Paint it Black' and he picked up my sitar
and tried to play it - and the next thing he did was that track. We had a lot in common when I think about it.
We shared the same date of birth, or nearly, so he must
have been a pieces as well. We also shared positions in
the most prominent bands in the universe, him with
Mick and Keith, and me with Paul and John. I think he related to me a lot and I liked him. Some people didn't have time for him but I thought he was one of the most interesting ones."
- Beatles Anthology p. 203
"When I met him I liked him quite a lot. He was a good fellow you know. I got to know him very well, I think, and I felt very close to him: you know how it is with some people, you feel for them, feel near to them. He was born on February 28, 1943, and I was born on February 25, 1943, and he was with Mick and Keith, and I was with John and Paul in the groups, so there was a sort of understanding between the two of us. The positions were similar, and I often seemed to meet him in his times of trouble. There was nothing the matter with him that a little extra love wouldn't have cured. I don't think he had enough love or understanding. He was very nice and sincere and sensitive,
and we must remember that's what he was."
- asked his reaction to Brian's death, newspaper report 1969.
Noel Redding: "I've never stopped being amazed that Brian had anything to do with me. I mean there was me, all of twenty - a nobody right? But there I was hangin' out with Brian Jones. There was an ingrained kindness in Brian, really. He was soft spoken, soft natured and yet terrific fun."
"At the farm he enjoyed both the respect and love of his staff. Mary Hallet, in particular, was extremely close to her new hippy boss. Mary had a growing family of her own to see to, but she gave what hours she could spare each day to keeping house to Brian. Mary remembers: 'Brian was very thoughtful and kind. He would always stop to help me if he saw me moving a heavy piece of furniture and when he went out to buy things for the house, he would call me in to see what he had bought. Once I admired such a lovely little table. At once he said, 'You do like that table, don't you?' I replied, 'Oh, it's beautiful.' 'They you shall have it,' Brian said, and he gave it to me. It's one of my most treasured possessions.'
Mick Martin was a gardener at Cotchford Farm. He says about Brian: "He was a first-class bloke and a super boss."
Julian Mark Andrews: 'Why Brian is often classed as a bastard is this. He made his hobby, his life. It was his passion and he was successful at it. People don't like that. It aggravates them. If you make a career out of your love it's too single-minded and when they don't share your passion, they feel left out.' "
Julian Brian Jones on the horrendous abuse heaped on his father over the years: 'I'm not saying it hasn't hurt, because it has. But then what can you do? Life's hard.' "
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
But there is a part that I do know a bit about, and that is about Brian's musical influence and abillities, as I am a semi-professional musician myself. As far as I see it there's Brian the popstar, and Brian the musician. Brian the Popstar is probably what made the Stones big. He was the first dandy, the first rebel, the first true Rock and Roll Star. Without him, the Stones would never have been so popular in the very early years.
Actually, Brian started the band. He named the band and recruited all of the members. If it wasn't for Brian Jones, there would be no Rolling Stones. Fact.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
But as a musician, I don't have a very high esteem of him. He was a great harp player, but with all other instruments he was very mediocre, and he wasn't an original. People continue to say he was a multi-instrumentalist, but I find that very exaggerated. If you play decent guitar you'll find that most stringed instruments aren't that far away anymore. If you play paino, there's about 10 instruments -even as far as vibraphone- that aren't that hard to play decently anymore. Check out Paul McCartney's latest album, he plays at least 20 different instruments.
Dude, you're clearly lost. I can't believe what I'm reading.
Brian Jones was one of the greatest musicians of the twentieth century. Brian could pick up any instrument and master it in about an hour. Keith Richards himself has confirmed this. Brian could take any instrument and incorporate into the Stones sound, no matter how exotic or peculiar it was.
Have you ever listened to any of the bootlegs from the Stones 1967 European tour? Have you ever heard any of Brian's live performances of Ruby Tuesday, where he solos away on his recorder like a fucking virtuoso? His performances on that tour were phenomenal. He played sitar, dulcimer, organ, harp, recorder, guitar, slide guitar et al
Obviously you haven't, because you're talking shit.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
My biggest problem with Brian that he wasn't an original musically. Yes, he was ahead of his time with wanting to be a 50's blues player, but he has never been able to go beyond that. At the moment the Stones realised (actually: Oldham) that they needed their own, original work instead of endless covers Brian's role was finished. Brian just couldn't write any own, original material, and as a guitar player he was too mediocre to actually really add something to the songs by Jagger and Richards.
Holy fuck, you're either living in a bubble, or just lost. This is embarrassing reading this. You really don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Have you ever listened to Between the Buttons? What about Aftermath?
Ruby Tuesday? Paint It Black? Under My Thumb? Lady Jane? Jigsaw Puzzle?
And how about this, have you ever heard of the "A Degree of Murder" soundtrack?
Obviously you haven't.
Let me fill you in: Brian Jones composed an entire score for this German film. That's right. Brian Jones. Could Keith Richards compose an original score for a film soundtrack? Could Mick Jagger?
Fuck no.
"Jimmy Page plays guitar, Nicky Hopkins piano and Kenny Jones drums. Brian Jones plays every instrument he'd ever picked up and got a tune out of." - Rolling Stones Mojo Special Edition
"And it wasn't just that his music was special, it was that the score was so spontaneous, vital. Only Brian could've done it. He had a tremendous feeling for the lyrical parts and knew perfectly the recording and mixing techniques required to achieve the best sound for drums, his guitar or flute et cetera." - Volker Schlondorff, the director of A Degree Of Murder
Oh, and Brian couldn't write a song eh? Yeah, Brian Jones couldn't write a song, even though he composed an entire original score for a film. Right.
Marianne Faithful:
"...it was really Brian and Keith's song. It began, as I recall, from a bluesy Elizabethan fragment Brian was fiddling with in the studio. Brian in his sheepish way very softly played a folkish, nursery rhyme melody on the recorder. It was nothing more than a wispy tune, but it caught Keith's attention. Brian said it was a hybrid of Thomas Dowland's 'Air On The Late Lord Essex' [sic] and a Skip James blues."
and this is from the Stones Mojo Special Edition: (basically repeats what's already been said)
"In one of the most telling episodes in Faithfull, her autobiographical collaboration with David Dalton, Marianne describes the moment in the studio when Jones first plays on recorder the beautiful lilting pastoral melody that would eventually become Ruby Tuesday. Richards picks up on it and starts shaping it on the piano. Jones tells him that it's a cross between John Dowland's Air On The Late Lord Essex and a Skip James blues. 'Brian wanted everyone to say, 'That's great Brian, wonderful! Good work!'' says Faitful. 'But of course nobody did.' When it was released, as the flip side to Let's Spend The Night Together, Ruby Tuesday carried the standard Jagger-Richards songwriting credit. When they performed it on TV, Jones and Richards were sat together at the same piano stool, accentuating their physical and musical closeness. They would never be that close again."
Jagger, and I quote: "Lovely song, great melody, great lyrics -- never wrote a thing on it, always enjoy singing it, though"
The quote is from 1995, and although it may not be verbatim, it's pretty close. So, I guess since it's credited to Jagger/Richards, that means Keith wrote it, all by himself, right?
I don't think so.
Keith has never, ever come up with anything even remotely resembling this classic tune in almost forty years since Ruby Tuesday was released. The music and arrangement is Brian Jones. In this day and age, Keith is still having trouble playing his songs correctly. He's still doing the Chuck Berry thing.
To this day the Stones can't orchestrate shit compared to what Brian did for them. It's so obvious that Brian was the musical genius behind the Stones.
Mick has flat out stated he had nothing to do with writing Ruby Tuesday. The song was Brian's idea. He started to write it about a groupie friend. He got stuck on the lyrics and went over to Keith's house, where they worked on the lyrics together. In the studio, the music for Ruby Tuesday was all Brian's. He played the recorder, cello and piano for the song. But then, so Bill would have something to play on it, the cello was done again by Bill (with some help from Keith). Apparantly Brian and Keith had a deal where Ruby Tuesday would be credited to Jones/Richards, or at least Jagger/Richards/Jones. It wasn't until the song came out, that Brian found out that this would not be the case, which in turn intensfied the riff between him, Keith and Mick. Brian and Keith were very close throughout a lot of '66 and early '67, but this was just the 'same old, same old' treatment (that Mick Taylor would discover later on).
Paint It Black:
Keith apparantly wrote the lyrics, and had music for it which he didn't like. He used the music that Brian came up with when he and Mick were not even in the studio, yet guess who was credited and who wasn't? That is a fact.
Honky Tonk Woman:
The main guitar riff to this one has been in question since Ry Cooder early on claimed Keef stole the riff from him. But at about the same time, late '69, an interview was conducted with Brian's father. He said that Brian played the guitar riff to HTW to him at Cotchford Farm, in early '69, around the time the song was about to be recorded. Brian told him the song's riff was his. The thing that always gets to me about this song is that it was the very last one Brian played on (in early Feb, '69) with the Stones. After that he refused to come back to the studio, even though the Stones would send a car to his house everyday to get him. He was pissed and would not show up, and never did again.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
He could play great counter riffs or rausing slide on blues classics, but I know not one Stones original that has great guitar work by Brian, except for No Expectations.
Little Red Rooster? I Can't Be Satisfied? Jigsaw Puzzle? Doncha Bother Me? Mona?
Hello? McFly?
Bo Diddley: "When I met Brian, he was playing slide guitar and harmonica. His slide guitar was great. Especially to be as young as he was. Brian was a little dude that was trying to pull the group ahead. I saw him as the leader. He didn't take no mess. He was a fantastic cat. He handled the group beautifully."
Keith Richards: "I've never heard anybody, before or since, get that Bo Diddley thing down. Diddley himself was astounded, saying that Brian was the only cat he knew who'd worked out the secret of it."
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
People say that he was bored with the guitar and therefore he experimented with different instruments, but I just don't believe that. His only way of contributing to the Stones was with different instrumenst and vibes. That worked until 1966, but then his role was really over.
Keep dreaming.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
It was Brian who made the Stones being noticed in 1963, but it was Jagger/Richards song writing who made them survive 1964, and who made the Stones the biggest band in the world. Brian, and also Mick Taylor and Ron Wood, are only icing on the cake.
Mathijs
Yeah and Keith Richards is such an awesome guitarist. He's right up there with Hendrix, Page, Clapton, McGlauglin, Taylor et al.
If Brian and Mick Taylor were only "icing on the cake", then surely Mick and Keith could've written all of those songs and played all of those guitar solos and instruments all by themselves. Yep, Mick and Keith are brilliant geniouses. They really are up there with Lennon and McCartney.
But oh, wait.
What have they done since Mick Taylor quit?
If they're so amazing, surely there must have been an onslaught of classic albums and brilliant material coming out at a ridiculous pace. No more Brian, no more Mick Taylor. Time for Mick and Keith to really shine.
But wait, that's right.
The Stones have sucked since Mick Taylor quit.
No more classic albums. No more Exiles. No more Sticky Fingers. No more Beggars Banquets. No more Aftermaths. No more Ruby Tuesdays.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
>Brian's harp playing on Beggar's was brilliant.
Brian doesn't play harp on Beggar's.
Mathijs
Uh, yes he does. Brian plays on the majority of Beggars Banquet.
Talk to Keno.
[Edited by The Porkchop Express]
[Edited by The Porkchop Express] |
| November 15th, 2005 05:57 PM |
|
|
| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
jend wrote:
doesn't Pat sound really pathetic (and Trevor desperate)- what will he do if his enquirey proves that Brian wasn't murdered and he's wasted all his money on it?
You fucking douchebag.
What Pat and Trevor are doing takes fucking balls. They are seeking justice.
Trevor sacrificed his life savings and assets along with a much loved memorabilia collection, knowing full well he just might be facing total defeat at the huge corporate conglomerates opposing him (ie the London Police and the Rolling Stones), all because he beleives so strongly in justice.
That's not pathetic, that takes guts. Balls.
|
| November 15th, 2005 05:58 PM |
|
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| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
Dick Bush wrote:
Porky,
Why the tattling?
Go straight to http://www.timeisonourside.com and lose all your illusions.
Dicky,
Tattling?
Why are you living in a fantasy world? Why do you deny the truth and reality?
That site is full of errors. It's crap.
You also need to talk to Keno. Go to his site. You'll lose your illusions.
[Edited by The Porkchop Express] |
| November 15th, 2005 07:12 PM |
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| GhostofBrianJones |
I believe Pork Chop Express is absolutely correct.
However there are those who have different opinions about any
of the Stones including Brian Jones. If other people do not want
to accept what your opinion is then forget it. There is no sense
in being abusive. You know what is what and that is what really counts. I was alive when Brian Jones was still walking the earth so I can remember how they treated him and the crap that went on. It
still goes on.
I truly hope Trevor Hobley does find out exactly what happened
that night.There is a post on the Toronto Stones site concerning
his latest news. Yes Trevor and Pat and Mark do have guts, balls
and an extraordinary amount of determination to seek justice.
|
| November 15th, 2005 07:44 PM |
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| stewed & Keefed |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
But there is a part that I do know a bit about, and that is about Brian's musical influence and abillities, as I am a semi-professional musician myself.
So you play guitar, and you know you now all about Brian's musical abillities,so who do you play with then,are you with a big band,have I heard of you ? I don't think so.we can all play fucking guitar
[Edited by stewed & Keefed] |
| November 15th, 2005 07:49 PM |
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| SheRat |
Well, obviously, Pork Chop Express must not be who I think it is.
PCE: The idea/fact that everyone outside of the Stones camp liked Brian does not mean SHIT in terms of having a long-term, working relationship with the guy. And I would say that about Keith if someone used the same justification for him. Haven't you ever known anyone who had a parent or a sister who seemed really cool but then you found out when they got home they turned into a monster? I'm not saying Brian was a monster or wasn't a monster--just that your supportive evidence is illogical.
In any case, having been in bands almost half my life now, I can tell you--it is really quite ridiculous for anyone to talk conclusively about the band politics not having been in the fucking band. Especially when there's that much money and fame at stake. That's some messy, complicated shit.
As for people changing their stories, I have no doubt in my mind that, were Brian alive, his story would change as well. Does no one here understand the concept that we, all of us, are constantly rewriting our pasts, taking what we want and/or need from them based on where we are at any given moment?
Some days, Keith is feeling generous and guilty. Other days, he's not. Is he really supposed to have a static, standard answer that never changes? That would probably piss the Brian Jones Internet Death Cult off as well.
[Edited by SheRat] |
| November 15th, 2005 08:51 PM |
|
|
| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
SheRat wrote:
The idea/fact that everyone outside of the Stones camp liked Brian does not mean SHIT in terms of having a long-term, working relationship with the guy.
Yes it does. It means everything.
Brian had his band stolen from him. He didn't get credit for his music. He was picked on and treated poorly. Plus, the police were constantly harrassing him. Add in the fact that he was insecure and sensitive, plus he was taking too much acid, amphetamines, weed and hash and you have a very paranoid, miserable individual.
Regardless, he was used and abused. As was Mick Taylor.
I'm not denying the fact that Jones was miserable and a little shit at times.
The point is, is that Brian would've had a better life in another band. Hendrix, Lennon, Marriot, Alexis Korner etc. really liked him and wanted to work with him.
Mick and Keith didn't. As early as '65 they wanted him out. |
|
