| 14th December 2006 01:58 PM |
|
|
| Starbuck |
man, sean, it must have taken you hours to write that post!
feej, i can't disagree that stalin's purges or anything the germans did in the east or to the jews was any less tragic. and of course the holocaust and the purges were on a scale infinitely larger than japan's chinese exploits. dead is dead and i realize that. however, the severity and brutality of the methods used is what i am talking about. did the SS gang rape women and then slice off their breasts with a machete? did they disembowel pregnant women, or throw babies up into air and catch them on the end of a bayonet? did they force fathers to fuck the decapitated corpses of their daughters, and then slice off their testicles? i don't think that was standard procedure for the SS, whereas it was an everyday occurrence in nanking.
and yes, i do think this type of conduct is the most dreadful, sick and brutal act of warfare in the history of humankind. is it possible to get any more brutal? no. and the fact that it was done in such close proximity to our own time makes it worse. this is modern history we're talking about, not the 11th century.
|
| 14th December 2006 02:16 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
man, sean, it must have taken you hours to write that post!
feej, i can't disagree that stalin's purges or anything the germans did in the east or to the jews was any less tragic. and of course the holocaust and the purges were on a scale infinitely larger than japan's chinese exploits. dead is dead and i realize that. however, the severity and brutality of the methods used is what i am talking about. did the SS gang rape women and then slice off their breasts with a machete? did they disembowel pregnant women, or throw babies up into air and catch them on the end of a bayonet? did they force fathers to fuck the decapitated corpses of their daughters, and then slice off their testicles? i don't think that was standard procedure for the SS, whereas it was an everyday occurrence in nanking.
and yes, i do think this type of conduct is the most dreadful, sick and brutal act of warfare in the history of humankind. is it possible to get any more brutal? no. and the fact that it was done in such close proximity to our own time makes it worse. this is modern history we're talking about, not the 11th century.
I might agree that the personal (close) aspect of it distinguishes it from many other atrocities...it take some serious disturbance and hate to mutilate someone with your own hands, as opposed to some other, less personal method of killing...but these methods you speak of have been employed throughout history and are being employed on people as I type this...and as I said, their absence in warfare is a recent pheneomenon and one employed only by western nations....there are people on this earth who would do exactly what the Japanese did to you and your family if given the chance...there are people who would not...the dividing line between those who still display such savagery on large and condoned scales seems to be between those nations with some degree of free thought and nice condominiums and those nations who have neither...that kind of brutality and mindset should be studied...and, IMO, the cultures that would allow for such should be brought to heal...there are cultures that exist today that we know, from modern day events, would carry out such if they had the capabilities...and what is the civilized world's response?...meaningless sanctions and the like
What is interesting, from an historical standpoint, is that there has never been a more magnanimous and self-restrained super power in the history of this planet...never...and the odds, as discerned from history, are that the next super power or powers will not be so magnanimous and self-restrained...just take a hard look at the would-be successors...and imagine the methods that will be employed against the newly vanquished...there is an entire planet that should be careful what it wishes for...and an entire generation of Americans that should stop be uncomfortable in its own skin...because when we're gone, it will be much worse...history says so |
| 14th December 2006 02:23 PM |
|
|
| glencar |
Something to remember is that the Geramns have made amends. The Japanese never did. |
| 14th December 2006 02:34 PM |
|
|
| lotsajizz |
damn straight...the Japs still pretend nothing ever happened |
| 14th December 2006 02:35 PM |
|
|
| glencar |
1st time we ever agreed? |
| 14th December 2006 02:35 PM |
|
|
| Dan |
quote:
glencar wrote:
Something to remember is that the Geramns have made amends. The Japanese never did.
The superior editing and camerawork on the Saitama DVD proves they really are the master race. |
| 14th December 2006 03:02 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
quote:
Dan wrote:
The superior editing and camerawork on the Saitama DVD proves they really are the master race.
Germans comprise the largest self-reported ethnicity within the United States...Anyone who hates Germans is an un-American commie |
| 14th December 2006 03:04 PM |
|
|
| lotsajizz |
quote:
glencar wrote:
1st time we ever agreed?
law of averages...had to happen sooner or later....I am a descendant of WW2 vets who fought the Japs, just as I suspect moonie's forbears fought the Germans...perhaps this is why we are hard in our respective attitudes? |
| 14th December 2006 03:07 PM |
|
|
| lotsajizz |
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
man, sean, it must have taken you hours to write that post!
I wrote a book on the Eastern Front 1944-1945. Copywritten finally after working on it since 1985 on and off...now I'm hawking around for publishers...it sits on my computer so I could cut and paste from it for my reply
|
| 14th December 2006 03:09 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
quote:
lotsajizz wrote:
law of averages...had to happen sooner or later....I am a descendant of WW2 vets who fought the Japs, just as I suspect moonie's forbears fought the Germans...perhaps this is why we are hard in our respective attitudes?
Wait...my grandfather fought the Germans...died doing it...and my mother is german...is this why I left home at 17?
|
| 14th December 2006 03:11 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
quote:
lotsajizz wrote:
I wrote a book on the Eastern Front 1944-1945. Copywritten finally after working on it since 1985 on and off...now I'm hawking around for publishers...it sits on my computer so I could cut and paste from it for my reply
I'm seeking information about german troop movements in Russia during the sping of 1943...do you know where any such information can be found?...I recall finding some good info on a website a couple of years ago, but I cannot find it anymore
|
| 14th December 2006 03:20 PM |
|
|
| mojoman |
quote:
Fiji Joe wrote:
Wait...my grandfather fought the Germans...died doing it...and my mother is german...is this why I left home at 17?
feel your pain on that. my dad was in the pacific theater and my uncle was in the army air force in europe. my mothers family lived near the rhine. do the math on that. |
| 14th December 2006 03:23 PM |
|
|
| lotsajizz |
quote:
Fiji Joe wrote:
I'm seeking information about german troop movements in Russia during the sping of 1943...do you know where any such information can be found?...I recall finding some good info on a website a couple of years ago, but I cannot find it anymore
ask me
and besides that...Wikipedia is not that bad, Feldgrau.com as well, if you read German try http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/
let me know of you read Russian and I can send you some more |
| 14th December 2006 03:28 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
quote:
lotsajizz wrote:
ask me
and besides that...Wikipedia is not that bad, Feldgrau.com as well, if you read German try http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/
let me know of you read Russian and I can send you some more
Thanks...I can read german, but I cannot read russian...nor do I want to learn |
| 14th December 2006 03:30 PM |
|
|
| Starbuck |
quote:
if you read German try http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/
let me know of you read Russian and I can send you some more
sean, give him a break....feej is still working on english!
ZAM!
thank you, thank you!
no seriously folks...
feej, just out of curiousity, what historical events do you find more brutal than nanking?
sean, send me a copy of your opus!
[Edited by Starbuck] |
| 14th December 2006 03:33 PM |
|
|
| Dan |
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
feej, just out of curiousity, what historical events do you find more brutal than nanking?
Mick Jagger's solo career. |
| 14th December 2006 03:41 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
feej, just out of curiousity, what historical events do you find more brutal than nanking?
The Bud Grant era...MIke Cubbage's tenure at third base and the "Love Boat" fiasco
[Edited by Fiji Joe] |
| 14th December 2006 04:38 PM |
|
|
| WinslowStud |
The bud grant era - hey - that was a golden age. Simply fabulous teams. What are you talkin bout? |
| 14th December 2006 04:41 PM |
|
|
| mojoman |
quote:
Dan wrote:
Mick Jagger's solo career.
funny!!!! |
| 14th December 2006 04:42 PM |
|
|
| robpop |
quote:
WinslowStud wrote:
The bud grant era - hey - that was a golden age. Simply fabulous teams. What are you talkin bout?
Sam Ratigliano was better. |
| 14th December 2006 05:06 PM |
|
|
| sirmoonie |
quote:
lotsajizz wrote:
law of averages...had to happen sooner or later....I am a descendant of WW2 vets who fought the Japs, just as I suspect moonie's forbears fought the Germans...perhaps this is why we are hard in our respective attitudes?
Ya think?
Lets just all agree that genocides are fucking terrible - women and little kids, thats just wrong. Its like a god wrong type sitch deal.
We should all just shoot each other gangsta style. |
| 14th December 2006 05:14 PM |
|
|
| Joey |
quote:
Prodigal Son wrote:
Well, I've just done a history course on Modern Japan and no one can excuse the psychotic behaviour that the Japanese army displayed toward the Chinese of Nanjing during this time. Japan continues to downplay its occurrence but the Chinese know and it's why we see tensions between the two nations still. For all the crazy human rights violations the Chinese government does today, it pales in comparison to the atrocities committed on their land during 1937-38 by Japan.
I think instant death to every man, woman and child by firing squad would have been a kind fate by comparison. Nazis ain't got shit on the Japanese during the 30s. See, they took the whole evolutional "racial purity" idea that was so fucking sick and stupid yet pervasive among leaders back then. And they twisted it to convince themselves that Chinese were of a weaker background (despite being of Oriental descent too) and were sub-human. Christ, it makes you glad we they lost WWII even if those atomnic bombings were messed up too.
Not that an eye for an eye is a fair policy, but the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were karma come back to roost for the Japanese based on the depraved things they had done throughout the years. Only the Mayans could compare to that barbaric stuff. I think they must have done some severe brainwashing and/or hired crazy murderers and twisted the minds of the mentally ill to do the dirty work.
Compare this to how Japanese had treated their prisoners of war just 30 years earlier during the Russo-Japanese war. Russian captives commented on how accomodating and fair they were. Most didn't want to leave and go back to the reality of living in the hardship of Imperial Russia. Even with their violent history, the Japanese had always been honourable, decent and respectable warriors, but something changed in the 20th century. Thank god for 1945 which was the end of their days of military dominance. The overhaul of Japan transformed them into the technological business giant we know and love today and not the tyrannical evil power they once were.
[Edited by Prodigal Son]
" The Oriental Man does NOT value Human Life in the same manner as the White Man " ( General William Westmoreland , 1978 )
.....
[ Edited by  ]
[Edited by Joey] |
| 14th December 2006 05:18 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
I have descendants who fought in the war of northern aggression, yet I spent a year living in the same room with a chowder eating, lobster boiling carpetbagger from Rhode Island...we became the best of friends...Why I once sat on this Long Island Yankee's basement couch, drank beer, listened to Stones and not once did it come to fisticuffs...I guess some folks are superior to others when it comes to matters of human relations...Master race?...Empirical evidence is definately leaning that way
[Edited by Fiji Joe] |
| 14th December 2006 05:31 PM |
|
|
| Joey |
" I have descendants who fought in the war of northern aggression, yet I spent a year living in the same room with a chowder eating, lobster boiling carpetbagger from Rhode Island...we became the best of friends...Why I once sat on this Long Island Yankee's basement couch, drank beer, listened to Stones and not once did it come to fisticuffs...I guess some folks are superior to others when it comes to matters of human relations...Master race?...Empirical evidence is definately ( sic ) leaning that way "
Oh , ..... Oh ! .. , ..... Little ..... Lil' ......... Lil' ............ ******* ( Fade to White --- Like an Angel ) ********
|
| 14th December 2006 05:41 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
Germans are in great abundance in Nebraska
It's our only real failure |
| 14th December 2006 06:27 PM |
|
|
| pdog |
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
feej - and moonie for that matter - give me some examples of more brutal atrocities in WWII than what the japs did at nanking.
The Germans during WWII...
No contest! |
| 14th December 2006 06:32 PM |
|
|
| lotsajizz |
quote:
pdog wrote:
The Germans during WWII...
No contest!
I suggest additional reading. You may wish to start with some of the posts within as there was, indeed, QUITE a contest. Stalin and his goons ended up killing far more than Hitler and his goons....let's just say, as sirmoonie did, that it's ALL bad
[Edited by lotsajizz] |
| 14th December 2006 06:50 PM |
|
|
| pdog |
quote:
lotsajizz wrote:
I suggest additional reading. You may wish to start with some of the posts within as there was, indeed, QUITE a contest. Stalin and his goons ended up killing far more than Hitler and his goons....let's just say, as sirmoonie did, that it's ALL bad
[Edited by lotsajizz]
I find what the Germans did far worse, because it was systematic and they tried to hide it and pretend it wasn't going on...
Russians are #2 and The Japs #3 IMO. Only b/c with them, you kinda knew what you got... Fucking Stalin made no bones about sacraficing and slaughtering people, and The Japs fought til the death, it was a superior cultural thing, no surrender, no prisoners. As brutal as they were, i respect a warrior capable of such high expectations for themselves and the ability to discard any moral reservations when taking over a country. Ask an old Pollack about WWII, they'll tell you the Russians screwed them harder than The Germans, but I still rank the Germans at #1. Everyone knew what stalin was all about, Hitler really made Germany look good outwardly by hiding the genocide so well. It's just hoes I see it... |
| 14th December 2006 07:57 PM |
|
|
| lotsajizz |
it's ALL bad
dead is dead and the dead don't care if they were slaughtered by #1 #2 or #3
|
| 14th December 2006 08:16 PM |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
quote:
pdog wrote:
The Germans during WWII...
No contest!
Figures...jew |
