| 13th December 2006 01:17 AM |
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| Starbuck |
so anyway, i am absolutely engrossed in Iris Chang's book on the Rape of Nanking....fascinating stuff. as someone who has always been a european theater kind of a guy, this book is eye opening to exactly how brutal the japanese were in the war. they were beyond brutal. they were beyond human. they were fucking bastards! in some ways, they made the SS look like little schoolgirls. this is not to degrade the experience of the jews in the east....it is one thing to be lined up and shot or gassed to death...but it is something different to be stripped naked, sodomized, forced to fuck your 12 year old daughter, then watch while they stick a bamboo rod up her vagina until she is dead, then have your testicles gnawed off by a german shepherd and then buried alive. that kind of shit went on in nanking for almost two months in late 37/early 38....and throughout china for the remainder of the war, no?
the big question is: why is the treatment of the chinese by the japanese, which is arguably the most brutal experience of any people in the history of warfare, swept under the rug? why do people know about the holocaust but not nanking?
seems i read somewhere that the japs negotiated with macarthur to have the whole affair collectively forgotten about for some reason....
for those with a strong stomach, check out the photo gallery at
http://www.fatherryan.org/holocaust/holocaust77/pic1.htm
sorry about the serious content! carry on with your regularly scheduled mayhem!
[Edited by Starbuck] |
| 13th December 2006 01:47 AM |
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| ShaneJazz |
You make a very valid point about the public's knowledge/perception of this. I have never heard of this until now, and am completely shocked. |
| 13th December 2006 01:50 AM |
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| Prodigal Son |
Well, I've just done a history course on Modern Japan and no one can excuse the psychotic behaviour that the Japanese army displayed toward the Chinese of Nanjing during this time. Japan continues to downplay its occurrence but the Chinese know and it's why we see tensions between the two nations still. For all the crazy human rights violations the Chinese government does today, it pales in comparison to the atrocities committed on their land during 1937-38 by Japan.
I think instant death to every man, woman and child by firing squad would have been a kind fate by comparison. Nazis ain't got shit on the Japanese during the 30s. See, they took the whole evolutional "racial purity" idea that was so fucking sick and stupid yet pervasive among leaders back then. And they twisted it to convince themselves that Chinese were of a weaker background (despite being of Oriental descent too) and were sub-human. Christ, it makes you glad we they lost WWII even if those atomnic bombings were messed up too.
Not that an eye for an eye is a fair policy, but the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were karma come back to roost for the Japanese based on the depraved things they had done throughout the years. Only the Mayans could compare to that barbaric stuff. I think they must have done some severe brainwashing and/or hired crazy murderers and twisted the minds of the mentally ill to do the dirty work.
Compare this to how Japanese had treated their prisoners of war just 30 years earlier during the Russo-Japanese war. Russian captives commented on how accomodating and fair they were. Most didn't want to leave and go back to the reality of living in the hardship of Imperial Russia. Even with their violent history, the Japanese had always been honourable, decent and respectable warriors, but something changed in the 20th century. Thank god for 1945 which was the end of their days of military dominance. The overhaul of Japan transformed them into the technological business giant we know and love today and not the tyrannical evil power they once were.
[Edited by Prodigal Son] |
| 13th December 2006 05:43 AM |
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| lotsajizz |
...and the Japs are still unrepetant about it all...it is one big reason why they are still pariahs amongst their fellow Asians.... |
| 14th December 2006 01:27 AM |
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| glencar |
Just keep buying Toyotas... |
| 14th December 2006 02:12 AM |
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| sirmoonie |
The Hun is worse. Far worse. They fucking perfect assembly line murder/genocide, and get a flyer for being more humane? Jesus fucking Christ we are a forgiving and disasterously forgetful society.
Out of the two DNAisms, take a fucking wild guess who we will be at war with 30-50 years from now. |
| 14th December 2006 02:14 AM |
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| pdog |
let's not going taking the high roads folks (americans)...
What we did to the natives here and Africans, makes the japs stuff look like a lost weekend! we nuked the little slant eyed pricks too, so they kinda got a bit of justice served... What did we get for killing hundred of thousands and enslaving so many people? Rap? Indian casinos? Pfft! |
| 14th December 2006 05:32 AM |
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| lotsajizz |
...or the limey's brutal colonization and slaughter of the native population of Ireland for that matter....none of the world's peoples has a monopoly on being bad.... |
| 14th December 2006 09:26 AM |
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| glencar |
quote:
pdog wrote:
let's not going taking the high roads folks (americans)...
What we did to the natives here and Africans, makes the japs stuff look like a lost weekend! we nuked the little slant eyed pricks too, so they kinda got a bit of justice served... What did we get for killing hundred of thousands and enslaving so many people? Rap? Indian casinos? Pfft!
I'll stay on the high road. The low road is yours if ye need it. My people ran no slaves & never ran off Indians. There were instances of brutality but the Indians fought back. Blacks gained their freedom & now they have earned reverse discrimination. What does Nanking have? |
| 14th December 2006 09:38 AM |
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| Fiji Joe |
It's all good and well...the Chinese are doing some terrible stuff to their own people as we speak...read books about that and report back...why anyone is surprised at the brutality of mankind during times of war is beyond me...there are far worse episodes than that that could be referenced
Peoples with ambitions of domination will do some crazy and brutal stuff...that's not new to WW II and certainly will happen again...It is happening again...I mean, it's not like every nation in the world has the alcoholism and maliase rates of Scotland and the like...nations whose men don't wear skirts are capable of the greatest of goods and the lowest of lows....again...this should not come as a surprise |
| 14th December 2006 09:43 AM |
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| Fiji Joe |
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
which is arguably the most brutal experience of any people in the history of warfare
It's not even close to that...it just seems that way because there are pictures in the book...by most any measure, there has been far far worse....nonetheless, I feel like this whole thing could have been avoided had the world got together and built the Japanese some really nice condominiums and shopping centers...see, e.g., Cabrini Green |
| 14th December 2006 09:49 AM |
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| glencar |
The Japs violated all the terms of war. Look at how they treated POW's. The Chinese might suck these days but the Japs had a brutality on an extreme scale. Even the current Israeli regime would question what the Japs did. |
| 14th December 2006 10:00 AM |
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| Fiji Joe |
quote:
glencar wrote:
The Japs violated all the terms of war. Look at how they treated POW's. The Chinese might suck these days but the Japs had a brutality on an extreme scale. Even the current Israeli regime would question what the Japs did.
"terms of war" is a fairly new concept...really only existing sporadically in the last three centuries...and quite frankly, the "terms of war" have never realy been adopted by anyone outside of western civilization...that is one of western civ's greatest ignorance with respect to the enemies it now faces...there are people who seek your death who give less than a damn about the "terms of war"...and they never will..the new super powers will not have become the new super powers within the "terms of war"
[Edited by Fiji Joe] |
| 14th December 2006 10:02 AM |
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| glencar |
We'll always be better than them. |
| 14th December 2006 10:02 AM |
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| TampabayStone |
quote:
Fiji Joe wrote:
Cabrini Green
Hehe, get's me everytime! |
| 14th December 2006 10:05 AM |
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| glencar |
I drove through the London ghetto last summer & I was surprised at howe gritty it was. |
| 14th December 2006 10:20 AM |
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| WJ |
I am now in the Christmas spirit.
Happy holidays!
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| 14th December 2006 10:46 AM |
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| Fiji Joe |
quote:
TampabayStone wrote:
Hehe, get's me everytime!
A harbor in the tempest...that's what it is
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| 14th December 2006 10:53 AM |
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| TampabayStone |
quote:
Fiji Joe wrote:
A harbor in the tempest...that's what it is
You know I've had the hots for Thelma since I was about 7yrs old.
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| 14th December 2006 10:53 AM |
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| WJ |
I used to have a mad crush on Michael. Perhaps I'll celebrate Kwanzaa this year in his honor. |
| 14th December 2006 10:55 AM |
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| TampabayStone |
quote:
WJ wrote:
I used to have a mad crush on Michael. Perhaps I'll celebrate Kwanzaa this year in his honor.
Who, the Militant Midget?? |
| 14th December 2006 10:57 AM |
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| WJ |
quote:
TampabayStone wrote:
Who, the Militant Midget??
He was not militant, he was just passionate about not letting "the man" keep him down!
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| 14th December 2006 11:00 AM |
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| TampabayStone |
quote:
WJ wrote:
He was not militant, he was just passionate about not letting "the man" keep him down!
 |
| 14th December 2006 11:06 AM |
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| WJ |
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| 14th December 2006 11:07 AM |
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| TampabayStone |
No no put the candles off myback on the shopping list!!
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| 14th December 2006 11:14 AM |
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| WJ |
quote:
TampabayStone wrote:
No no put the candles off myback on the shopping list!!
I can't find any pics of him smiling as an adult. Geez, does he not get any rerun residuals?
Did anyone else notice Florida had no neck? Was it the result of an accident or was it a birth defect?
[Edited by WJ] |
| 14th December 2006 11:25 AM |
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| TampabayStone |
quote:
WJ wrote:
I can't find any pics of him smiling as an adult. Geez, does he not get any rerun residuals?
Did anyone else notice Florida had no neck? Was it the result of an accident or was it a birth defect?
[Edited by WJ]
I cannot find any good recent pics of Thelma, but I did recently see her on the BET awards. Put on a little weight, but I'm still in love. |
| 14th December 2006 11:37 AM |
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| Starbuck |
feej - and moonie for that matter - give me some examples of more brutal atrocities in WWII than what the japs did at nanking. |
| 14th December 2006 11:52 AM |
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| Fiji Joe |
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
feej - and moonie for that matter - give me some examples of more brutal atrocities in WWII than what the japs did at nanking.
That book really has got to you huh...yeah, I felt the same way when I learned the details of Nanking many years ago...But 6 million jews...the Stalin purges of approximately 20 million...Dresden...or were those just military and/or political moves?...But in any event, I didn't think we were limiting ourselves to WWII...You did say "in the history of warfare"...which was, I thought, quite an overstatement...history is repleate with episodes of genocide in far greater numbers and in far worse manners than Nanking...Do I really need to give you a list?...really?...there is Nanking going on in Darfur as we speak...Ever been to Carthage?...Ever met a true Carthaginian?
Just out of curiosity, what have you learned from this atrocity or others?...is there some value to this reading?
[Edited by Fiji Joe] |
| 14th December 2006 01:17 PM |
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| lotsajizz |
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
feej - and moonie for that matter - give me some examples of more brutal atrocities in WWII than what the japs did at nanking.
Not necessarily worse--but much larger, and at least as bad......
By late 1944, the Red Army was grinding its way to the German Fatherland, coming within miles of East Prussia. The battles were no longer going to be fought over Soviet territory, hundreds of miles away, but were coming to German cities, German towns, and German streets. This is where the Soviets intended to get their revenge for the countless mass graves, often filled with hundreds of women and children, they had uncovered sweeping across the USSR, for the death camps they had discovered, often being told of the horrible acts committed there, and the tens of millions of their brothers and sisters, both military and civilian, killed, be it from a German soldier or an SS officer. Ilya Ehrenburg, a hate-propagandist for the Red Army, wrote, "If you have killed one German, kill another. There is nothing jollier than German corpses." Such statements of Ehrenburg continued well into 1945, with the Red Army deep into German territory. Handmade posters were often put up in German towns stating, "Red Army Soldier! You are now on German soil; the hour of revenge has struck" A SS foreign intelligence report to the Fremde Heere Ost in February, 1945 summed up the Soviet acts on German soil as, "not due to the orders of their superiors but the consequence of the fanatical anti-German propaganda in the USSR.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, then a Soviet captain, wrote, "All of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot." However, some Red Army soldiers stuck up for the German population, stopping their comrades from committing atrocities, and giving the German children food. A German soldier earlier on in the war predicted events right when he stated, "May God grant us victory because if they get their revenge, we're in for a hard time."
And so it begins
In October, 1944, the troops of the 3rd Belorussian Front captured parts of the farming land in northeastern East Prussia, including the towns of Goldap and Nemmersdorff. In these towns and local areas, unspeakable atrocities took place, all within 48 hours under Soviet rule, after which the Germans launched a successful counterattack. No one was spared. Many civilians were crucified to barn doors. Both old grandparents and young grandchildren were murdered, often in the most brutal of manners, such as by beatings with a shovel or an axe. Nearly all of the females, including eight to twelve year olds, as well as eighty year olds, were raped (often gang-raped), and then usually shot. So wild was the Red Army's cruelty and thirst for revenge, between forty and fifty French prisoners-of-war, forced to work as slaves on the farms for the Germans, were hanged by the Soviets. Looting took place upon the dead bodies. These acts played right into the hands of Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, who was portraying the Red Army as nothing more than brutal Asiatic hordes.
Silesia, East Prussia and other parts of East Germany
In mid-January, 1945, the Red Army once again started another massive offensive. This time, it brought the Soviets from several bridgeheads over the Vistula river to the Oder, miles away from Berlin. This offensive brought the Soviets upon areas of Silesia and East Prussia, which had a history of German origin dating back hundreds of years. These two areas would bear witness to one of the greatest sacks in history, destroying hundreds of years of German history with it. The German population had some sense of what was going to happen, as well. After being told countless stories by retreating refugees about the brutality of the coming Red Army, and seeing and hearing Goebbels' propaganda (especially about Nemmersdorf), according to Wehrmacht estimates, some three and a half million civilians were on there way to Germany from the east by late January, 1945. However, the majority stayed behind, mostly due to poor evacuation plans by the local Nazi Gauleiter, who sometimes ordered the civilians to stay. Many who stayed killed themselves even before the Red Army arrived, out of pure fear of what would happen. These Germans often only had minutes to leave after seeing Soviet tanks on the horizon. Those same Soviet tanks would often chase down and run over the treks the refugees were using, sending bodies and debris flying into the air. Other civilians stayed behind, hoping the propaganda was wrong.
Germans who fled met very harsh winter conditions. Those on treks often had to ride through blinding blizzards on icy roads, causing their horses to slip continuously. Treks which crossed ice-covered sections of the Baltic sometimes fell through and sunk. Railroads were the fastest way to get to Germany, however, few had any heat. Many Silesians were taken by rail to Dresden, the capital of Saxony, where many trekkers had also arrived. In mid-February, at a time when there was the maximum number of refugees in Dresden, the city was terribly fire-bombed by the Allies, causing massive innocent death. Those without a land route could be saved by the Kriegsmarine. Indeed, two million Germans were saved this way, even after the war ended, but many thousands drowned after their ships were torpedoed by Soviet submarines.
As the Red Army swept to the Oder, its armies proceeded to rape and loot on a grand scale. In many areas, the first Soviet wave came from the Tank Armies. Usually, Soviet tankists did not have a lot of time to stop and rape, but due to their carrying capacity, they were some of the most effective looters of the war, packing their tanks with the loot. The Soviet tankists still managed to get in their fair share of revenge, however, by firing on refugee trains, and crushing treks, as described above.
The second wave was made up of Soviet riflemen, who beared the brunt of the Soviet war effort. Due to their trauma, the riflemen often drank any possible alcoholic liquid nearby, many taking it too far. In their drunken rage, the riflemen would set of for women. All types of women were raped. German nuns, young children (who often were not aware what was happening to them), old grandmothers, pregnant women, and nurses. Many times, these acts took place in front of the eye's of their family, in some cases, children had to hold the flashlight while their mothers were raped. In one case, after an elderly woman died due to the endless rapes, her body was still repeatedly violated. Men, such as brothers or fathers, who defended the women from such horror were often shot.
In other cases, whole groups of women were brought into Red Army barracks and were raped, often gang-raped, for days. Even local Poles, and Soviet women, recently liberated from Nazi camps, were raped. Nearly one and a half million Germans were raped in the areas of East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. In Berlin, up to one hundred and thirty thousand were raped, with several thousand committing suicide soon after. Former Allied prisoners of war witnessed these actions as well.
With the idea of collective guilt, the Red Army both arrested and murdered thousands of former goverment officials, such as firemen and railway officials. In their rage, the Soviets often set fire to houses of those who had escaped their wrath, sometimes after herding refugees into the buildings beforehand. These fires were often poorly planned, and usually resulted in whole city blocks going up in flames. More damage was done to Eastern Germany by arson than by the fighting over such land. These acts angered both Soviet and Polish leaders, who had to cover the cost of rebuilding such areas.
Many orders were issued to stop the senseless destruction, restore discipline and halt the harassment of the German population. The fighting performance of the Red Army was greatly diminished. However, halting such acts was nearly impossible. If the officers were not involved themselves, which they often were, the task of stopping drunk and armed Soviet soldiers was hard to complete. Some order was restored to the areas designated to stay German by the end of summer, but brutality continued against Germans in the areas of Prussia and Silesia for years to come. In East Prussia, the remaining German civilians were expelled from 1947 till 1948. This is because the Germans had become irrelevant as slave workers there.
In the areas of Polish administration, German names for streets and towns were banned, with Polish names replacing them. The Poles arrested Germans and treated them similar to how the SS treated Jews (48). Sometimes, whole German village populations were put into concentration camps, some of which had a mortality rate of 50%. Polish civilians could wander through new Polish territory, such as east of the Oder-Neisse line, which had been given to Poland in accordance with the Potsdam agreement, and choose new houses for themselves. If Germans were living in the house they choose, they would be expelled, having only minutes to leave and take whatever belongings they could, which were often looted later. Nearly all Germans expelled were robbed, no matter what transportation route they took to Germany. This included those by rail, and those forced into large columns on their treks by the Poles.
Several weeks after "liberation", Soviet fronts began deporting thousands of able-bodied Germans back to areas within the USSR to work as slaves. Up to two hundred and eighteen thousand Germans were deported from Silesia, Pomerania and Prussia. Due to the horrible treatment the Germans suffered, over one hundred thousand of them died as a result of the deportation. The treatment was worse than that of the Nazis perpetrated on their slaves, for which Fritz Sauckel was hanged at Nuremburg.
Rumania, Yugoslavia and Hungary
By late 1944, with the Soviets in control of a substantial amount of the Balkans, thousands of Volksdeutsche from Rumania, Hungary and Yugoslavia were gathered together and deported to various areas of the USSR for slave labor. In Budapest, for instance, seventy-five thousand Hungarian civilians (more than likely Volksdeutsche) were sent to the Gulag almost immediately after the fall of Budapest. A few months later, expulsions began, with the Germans often being brutalized on there way out of the country. Those who did not leave had their citizenships revoked, their property confiscated, and were used as slave labor where they were needed, under horrible conditions. The German population dropped off dramatically due to such measures.
The prisoners of the German Army Group E who surrendered in Yugoslavia in May, 1945 were forced on a march spanning hundreds of miles throughout Yugoslavia, where local peasants could turn out and take revenge out upon the Germans freely. Less than one hundred and sixty thousand (40%) of the Army Group's troops made it back to Germany alive. This death march is over twenty times greater in scale than Bataan, but how many times have you heard about it?
Czechoslovakia
The Sudeten Germans (all three and a half million of them), were the largest group outside of the 1937 European borders to be expelled, often in the most gruesome ways. The agreement to the surrender of Prague in May, 1945 let those Germans in the city who wished to leave, evacuate. However, Soviet troops decimated an exiting column, packed with soldiers and civilians. The Soviets poured petrol on the Germans, hung them by their feet on street poles, and set them on fire. Instead of suffocating, the victims were burned to death, making their agony last longer.
The Czech militia would surround German villages and go about bringing out the Germans by force into the city. Many would be beaten, shot or humiliated in other ways. In one case, after severe beatings, several German males were thrown into a large water tank. As the Germans came up for air, they were smacked at with sticks and poles by the Czechs. Bullets were also shot into the pool, turning the water red. In Schonpriesen in late July, 1945 after a suspicious explosion in a nearby ammunition dump, a wave of Czechs murdered over one thousand Germans (including children) by various hideous ways, despite the fact that there was no proof the Germans caused the explosion.
Following the immediate revenge suffered, German communities were forced to march to the German border, though some did go by train. Many male Germans were not expelled, but were used as slave labor in coal mines, industrial plants, and agriculture by the Czechs . If they were not allowed to cross the border, concentration camps were set up right by the border to keep the Germans in. US military personnel soon became aware of what the Czechs were doing, and they sometimes stepped in to protect German women and children . The Walter Commission delivered a report to the US House of Representatives, in which it stated the expulsions were neither humane, nor orderly, as the Czechs promised they would be .In the end, over a quarter of a million Germans lost their lives from the expulsions from Czechoslovakia.
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