quote:Riffhard wrote:
Well good for you. I wish you luck with that. The fact that some of the greatest scientists of the last century and a half believed, and still do in Stephen Hawking's case, means nothing to you, huh? Einstein was by his own account a very religious man. Certainly you would not argue that these two geniuses are/were "suspending critical thinking"?
"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms--it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, I am a deeply religious man."-Albert Einstein
It would appear that even Einstein had the sense to never say never with regards to religion or the existence of God.
When you throw around terms like "fairy tales" when talking about someone's faith you are proving my point about your smug attitude. I find it strange that people would get all defensive and cringe at the thought of throwing around words like nigger,spic,chink,kike,etc. Those words are patently offensive to all decent people. Yet the arbitrary slamming of someone else's beliefs by referring to them as "fairy tales" seems perfectly fine by those with absolutely no faith. Seems more than a little bit smug to me. It seems downright arrogant.
If you don't believe in a God or higher power,etc. fine,but don't judge those that do. Because at the end of the day your understanding of this topic uses no more "critcal thinking" than those who do believe. It's really more of your own hunch than anything else. Even Einstein was wise enough to know that he didn't know it all. Those who claim that they do know it all are sadly mistaken. Critical thinking be damned.
Riffy
Riffy
...I´m very impressed by your post!!!!! Thank you!!!!!
10th December 2007 05:42 PM
BriansBabe
quote:voodoopug wrote:
If I hate anything, then it is:
The Beatles
U2
Led Zeppelin
Bon Jovi
Sebastian Bach
...lol, good answer!!! I think I was getting far to serious here...
However, glad to be not on your "hate list"
10th December 2007 06:32 PM
the good
quote:Riffhard wrote:
Well good for you. I wish you luck with that. The fact that some of the greatest scientists of the last century and a half believed, and still do in Stephen Hawking's case, means nothing to you, huh? Einstein was by his own account a very religious man. Certainly you would not argue that these two geniuses are/were "suspending critical thinking"?
"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms--it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, I am a deeply religious man."-Albert Einstein
It would appear that even Einstein had the sense to never say never with regards to religion or the existence of God.
When you throw around terms like "fairy tales" when talking about someone's faith you are proving my point about your smug attitude. I find it strange that people would get all defensive and cringe at the thought of throwing around words like nigger,spic,chink,kike,etc. Those words are patently offensive to all decent people. Yet the arbitrary slamming of someone else's beliefs by referring to them as "fairy tales" seems perfectly fine by those with absolutely no faith. Seems more than a little bit smug to me. It seems downright arrogant.
If you don't believe in a God or higher power,etc. fine,but don't judge those that do. Because at the end of the day your understanding of this topic uses no more "critcal thinking" than those who do believe. It's really more of your own hunch than anything else. Even Einstein was wise enough to know that he didn't know it all. Those who claim that they do know it all are sadly mistaken. Critical thinking be damned.
Riffy
Riffy
I notice you didn't bother trying to address the point about the religious being the truly smug ones. Because they are.
You, like many of the faithful, distort what Einstein believed in your attempt to validate religious thinking. Einstein was NOT a theist. He was a Deist. As is Stephen Hawking.
And pardon me, but what do you call a story about a man who was born of a virgin, turned water into wine, and rose from the dead? A fairy tale.
[Edited by the good]
10th December 2007 06:37 PM
Some Guy
10th December 2007 07:57 PM
Riffhard
quote:the good wrote:
I notice you didn't bother trying to address the point about the religious being the truly smug ones. Because they are.
You, like many of the faithful, distort what Einstein believed in your attempt to validate religious thinking. Einstein was NOT a theist. He was a Deist. As is Stephen Hawking.
And pardon me, but what do you call a story about a man who was born of a virgin, turned water into wine, and rose from the dead? A fairy tale.
[Edited by the good]
I am not even trying to debate the religion,or lack there of, of Hawking or Einstein. My point was that neither one of them ever came out and made the blanket statement that religion is a fairy tale. They are/were wise enough to know that they didn't know everything. Deist or Theist is a moot point. The fact is that they have little comprehension of the God question. You, and I, have as much pratical knowledge of the existence of God as they do. Which is to say none. So while I can not prove definitively that God exists, you can not prove he does not. All I need do is look into the eyes of my daughters to reasure me of His existence. I feel sorry for those that can not have faith in that which they can not prove. That seems like a very lonely way to go through life.
To go around and make light of someone's belief system just seems so meanspirited to me. I could care less about your faith or lack of, but don't presume to judge me for mine. I have seen firsthand what the goodness of what prayer can do. I have also watched the faithful do many good things via charities and the like. It's a fact that people that attend a religious service regularly tend to give to charity considerably more than those with no affiliation to a religion. Also, not suprisingly, conservatives out give liberals by a wide margin as well. Perhaps that's because conservatives tend to attend a religious service with more regularity than do liberals. These, by the way, are not judgement calls by me. These are verifiable facts.
Believe what you want. Or don't, but I can assure you that I do not believe in fairy tales. I do believe in the message of Christ. The world would be a better place if more people did.
Riffy
10th December 2007 11:09 PM
voodoopug
Retail Store Not Responsible For Goose Attack
ROCKVILLE, Md. (AP) ―
A Montgomery County jury has rejected a negligence lawsuit brought by a woman who claimed she was attacked by a Canada goose while at a shopping center in 2004, causing her to fall and break her hip.
Suzanne Webster claimed the shopping center and a pool store, Contemporary Watercrafters, didn't do enough to protect the public from the nesting goose; but her lawsuit laid an egg.
The jury last week sided with the store and the shopping center, owned by Rockville Pike Properties.
The attorney for the defendants says his clients' hands were tied by laws protecting the geese and preventing the removal of the geese or the nest.
But Webster's attorney says the store made the situation worse by letting employees feed the geese.
10th December 2007 11:15 PM
the good
quote:Riffhard wrote:
I am not even trying to debate the religion,or lack there of, of Hawking or Einstein. My point was that neither one of them ever came out and made the blanket statement that religion is a fairy tale. They are/were wise enough to know that they didn't know everything. Deist or Theist is a moot point. The fact is that they have little comprehension of the God question. You, and I, have as much pratical knowledge of the existence of God as they do. Which is to say none. So while I can not prove definitively that God exists, you can not prove he does not. All I need do is look into the eyes of my daughters to reasure me of His existence. I feel sorry for those that can not have faith in that which they can not prove. That seems like a very lonely way to go through life.
To go around and make light of someone's belief system just seems so meanspirited to me. I could care less about your faith or lack of, but don't presume to judge me for mine. I have seen firsthand what the goodness of what prayer can do. I have also watched the faithful do many good things via charities and the like. It's a fact that people that attend a religious service regularly tend to give to charity considerably more than those with no affiliation to a religion. Also, not suprisingly, conservatives out give liberals by a wide margin as well. Perhaps that's because conservatives tend to attend a religious service with more regularity than do liberals. These, by the way, are not judgement calls by me. These are verifiable facts.
Believe what you want. Or don't, but I can assure you that I do not believe in fairy tales. I do believe in the message of Christ. The world would be a better place if more people did.
Riffy
Riffhard,
The issue of theism vs. deism is not a minor point. The great men that you cited are not theists.
I certainly don't know everything. But you don't have to know everything to come to the conclusion that God is man made. Just a little about human psychology and behavior. Do you not know how inclined the human mind is to wish thinking, to distortion, and projection?
I'm not trying to seem mean spirited. To me, its a fascinating topic and I have very strong opinions about it. Its also a personal issue for me. I was raised Roman Catholic. One of the worst days of my life was the day in first grade when I was taught the horrific particulars of the crucifixion. And told that it was my fault, because of original sin. I was an intelligent and sensitive child, and this had a profound impact on me. So for every story you tell me about how faith improves the lives of people, I can share one in which it had a negative impact.
And believe it or not, you don't have to be religious to give to charities. You just have to have some concern for the plight of your fellow man. If we are alone in the universe, then this species is all we have. From the perspective of a non believer, this makes acts of charity all the more important.
Your description of what you feel when you look into the eyes of your children is touching and powerful. But would you not concede that a non believer could feel the same parental love? Again, if this is all there is, it increases the importance of children, it doesn't diminish them.
Finally, I would like to say the following. You may think that religion is a source of great strength. You may feel it is essential to the health and prosperity of the human race. But I would suggest the following. That so long as we are looking to a father figure as an ultimate authority, who will keep us safe, guide our way, and be a source of ultimate knowledge, we will remain in the primitive childhood of our species. Saint Paul, ironically, put it beautifully when he said "when I was a child, I thought and spoke as a child. But when I became a man, I put away such childish things." Until we can put away childish things such as religion, we will keep thinking like children , and there will be far more in heaven and earth than can be dreamt of in our philosophy.
[Edited by the good]
[Edited by the good]
[Edited by the good]
[Edited by the good]
[Edited by the good]
10th December 2007 11:32 PM
Sioux
Riffy, thank you. Your posts are well thought out and very
heartfelt... I, too, am secure in my beliefs and nothing
anyone says will change that.
"the good", I'm sorry for your early negative feelings of
fear and/or guilt about Christ being crucified because of
what you or your ancestors did. Yes, original sin was what
separated us from God in the first place. But I can assure
you that no one "killed" Christ. He willingly gave His life
for all so that the relationship between God and man could
be restored. And I will keep my discourse brief, as I can
see that too much talk about spiritual things is putting
voodoopug to sleep. {wink}
[Edited by Sioux]
10th December 2007 11:45 PM
the good
quote:Sioux wrote:
Riffy, thank you. Your posts are well thought out and very
heartfelt... I, too, am secure in my beliefs and nothing
anyone says will change that.
[Edited by Sioux]
"They (neurotics) complain of their illness, but they make the most of it, and when it comes to taking it away from them they defend it like a lioness her young; there is no use in reproaching them with their contradictions."
Sigmund Freud
[Edited by the good]
10th December 2007 11:58 PM
Your Cousin Lou
quote:the good wrote:
"They (neurotics) complain of their illness, but they make the most of it, and when it comes to taking it away from them they defend it like a lioness her young; there is no use in reproaching them with their contradictions."
Sigmund Freud
[Edited by the good]
Gotta love someone who calls somebody smug and then quotes Freud.
Seriously. Not all religious people are smug or closed minded, nor do they necessarily believe every thing the church they belong to stands for. I'm not a religious person at all, but I don't go around mocking those who are (unless they mock me first, at least)
11th December 2007 12:34 AM
Sioux
Well, I think "the good" is a good candidate for the
phrase "methinks thou dost protest too much". This is
such a vitriolic subject for him that I think there are
things going on in his heart that he is trying to
suppress {wink}.
Truly, you think what you think and I can't change that. I
think what I think and you won't change that either. So,
why the insistence to try to do so? If you really didn't
care about all this you wouldn't go on and on...
Peace to you, and happy winter solstice...
11th December 2007 12:47 AM
monkey_man
quote:Riffhard wrote:
It's a fact that people that attend a religious service regularly tend to give to charity considerably more than those with no affiliation to a religion. Also, not suprisingly, conservatives out give liberals by a wide margin as well.
Riffy
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
-- Proverbs 16: 18-19 (KJV)
11th December 2007 01:18 AM
pdog
The thing most people miss, is the most simple and kills every fucking debate. God and religion are not the same. Religion is mans interpretation of a god they created.
God or any other name for what you find faith in and/or pray to has nothing to with religion.
The second statement can easily be proven.
How?
Well... if you look at overall human behavior and history, our problems and why we find ourselves suffering so much, all you need do is look at religions as a whole. They fight each other, they seek power, they have been the basis for wars. Not all is bad, but at simple glances in our history, it is a trend. Charity, and being part of a caring and giving society, is not solely religious. And many groups embody that principle with no religious affiliation.
So to prove my second statement. God has never done anything bad, period. you can pray, believe ect. god is god and god is what you make god in a personal relationship, no more no less. Anything else is bullshit man made crap!
11th December 2007 01:24 AM
the good
quote:Your Cousin Lou wrote:
Seriously. Not all religious people are smug or closed minded, nor do they necessarily believe every thing the church they belong to stands for. I'm not a religious person at all, but I don't go around mocking those who are (unless they mock me first, at least)
So much wisdom here.
11th December 2007 01:26 AM
the good
quote:pdog wrote:
The thing most people miss, is the most simple and kills every fucking debate. God and religion are not the same. Religion is mans interpretation of a god they created.
God or any other name for what you find faith in and/or pray to has nothing to with religion.
The second statement can easily be proven.
How?
Well... if you look at overall human behavior and history, our problems and why we find ourselves suffering so much, all you need do is look at religions as a whole. They fight each other, they seek power, they have been the basis for wars. Not all is bad, but at simple glances in our history, it is a trend. Charity, and being part of a caring and giving society, is not solely religious. And many groups embody that principle with no religious affiliation.
So to prove my second statement. God has never done anything bad, period. you can pray, believe ect. god is god and god is what you make god in a personal relationship, no more no less. Anything else is bullshit man made crap!
Belief in God, is, in my view, as harmful as religion.
11th December 2007 01:29 AM
zooeyglass
As someone who could at best be described as agnostic, I still agree with Riffhard: Good, you come across as somewhat mean-spirited on the subject, like a petulant child who had his faith destroyed and now wants to smash the faith of others. It’s clear that this is a “personal issue” for you and I understand how Catholicism can impact an individual considering I often refer to myself as a “Recovering Catholic”. But you seem to be deliberately distorting the role that religion and belief in a higher power can play in the lives of individuals. Riffy is right when he says that, from a scientific standpoint, there is actually more reason to believe in a higher power than not. And research has actually demonstrated a range of positive benefits of holding religious beliefs, from lower rates of delinquency/criminality to greater satisfaction with life.
I also agree with Pdog --
By your reasoning, Good, atheism will somehow show us out of the murky depths of this “primitive childhood of our species”. But by this line of reasoning, an atheist can feel inspired by the same temporal phenomena as believers in God. Anyone see the flawed reasoning? I honestly do not see how some greater enlightenment will fall upon mankind by removing religion; it won’t change a damn thing. Those individuals who claim to “act in God’s name” and be doing “God’s will” when they pervert policy for their own good and make war will not be banished. Their crutch will simply be removed and replaced with another. There will always be out groups to demonize or marginalize. There will always be hatred and war and poverty. That is the nature of mankind and it has absolutely nothing to do with God. There will always be individuals who will use whatever social institutions at hand to meet their own selfish needs; that religion has happened to be one of them is purely incidental.
11th December 2007 01:32 AM
the good
quote:Sioux wrote:
Well, I think "the good" is a good candidate for the
phrase "methinks thou dost protest too much". This is
such a vitriolic subject for him that I think there are
things going on in his heart that he is trying to
suppress {wink}.
Truly, you think what you think and I can't change that. I
think what I think and you won't change that either. So,
why the insistence to try to do so? If you really didn't
care about all this you wouldn't go on and on...
Peace to you, and happy winter solstice...
Dude, what is so vitriolic about what I said? I forcefully stated my opinions.
11th December 2007 01:39 AM
the good
quote:zooeyglass wrote:
By your reasoning, Good, atheism will somehow show us out of the murky depths of this “primitive childhood of our species”. But by this line of reasoning, an atheist can feel inspired by the same temporal phenomena as believers in God. Anyone see the flawed reasoning?
No, and this is white noise. Come up with something else besides the mean spirited argument. And please cite for me the scientific evidence that leads to the conclusion there is a God.
11th December 2007 01:40 AM
zooeyglass
Cite for me the research that has conclusively proved there isn't.
11th December 2007 01:41 AM
zooeyglass
And it would also seem to me that by dismissing the "mean spirited" argument as "white noise" you are totally ducking the issues that I have raised.
Calling Dr. Freud...
11th December 2007 01:55 AM
pdog
quote:the good wrote:
Belief in God, is, in my view, as harmful as religion.
Can you elaborate? This really goes nowhere, and if you're trying to say something, you should remember, you need to say something.
11th December 2007 01:59 AM
pdog
quote:the good wrote:
Dude, what is so vitriolic about what I said? I forcefully stated my opinions.
Yes, you did, and you're making a bit of an ass of yourself...
vitriolic - harsh or corrosive in tone
11th December 2007 02:00 AM
sirmoonie
quote:pdog wrote:
The thing most people miss, is the most simple and kills every fucking debate. God and religion are not the same. Religion is mans interpretation of a god they created.
God or any other name for what you find faith in and/or pray to has nothing to with religion.
The second statement can easily be proven.
How?
Well... if you look at overall human behavior and history, our problems and why we find ourselves suffering so much, all you need do is look at religions as a whole. They fight each other, they seek power, they have been the basis for wars. Not all is bad, but at simple glances in our history, it is a trend. Charity, and being part of a caring and giving society, is not solely religious. And many groups embody that principle with no religious affiliation.
So to prove my second statement. God has never done anything bad, period. you can pray, believe ect. god is god and god is what you make god in a personal relationship, no more no less. Anything else is bullshit man made crap!
Look, I don't know about all that liberal stuff you said, but I'll guaran-fucking-tee that a talking snake convinced the world's first naked woman made out of a rib to eat fruit that made her know she was naked, and then she sowed up some clothes for god with a needle she found, and then god got all pissed (he called it being "wrathful") so he killed a bunch of people, and then god flooded the earth to the highest mountain, and all that water somehow went away somewhere (like outer space of something), and then another guy with tablates parted the sea after that, and then god told the Angel Moroni where he wrote all that stuff down on gold tablates (different tablates - these ones were gold - just in case we didn't know the first time around), but mistakenly buried them in New York state (god can be forgetful), and then in 1978 all negroes were released from the Curse of Cain (Cain killed his brother and was marked by god so god could identify Cain out of the only other two people on earth at the time) by god because a human prophet (his name was Spencer Kimball - he was a very wise Mormon who lived in the 1970s) went to a chamber in Salt Lake City and argued it out with god - ALL that happened - its not my opinion, its a verifiable fact. I can prove it.
If you don't believe me, then maybe YOU can prove how the upcoming Rapture is not going to be untrue? Yeah, I didn't think so.
11th December 2007 02:01 AM
Altamont
11th December 2007 02:08 AM
pdog
quote:the good wrote:
No, and this is white noise. Come up with something else besides the mean spirited argument. And please cite for me the scientific evidence that leads to the conclusion there is a God.
You're right, there is no god. I know this, and despite knowing this, and having no reason to think otherwise, I still pray, and i'll be god damned if my prayers aren't answered. Keep in mind a few things. I follow no religion, and don't like most things about organized religion. I don't need them to know, the golden rule!
When my friends and family have left this mortal coil, I prayed. I prayed for an ease to my confusion, and sadness, and asked for a way for my to be our service to those around me also feeling the loss. And guess what happened. I took action, and things happened. Even though I don't believe. Better yet, sometimes i want to kill people, like drivers on cell phones cutting me off. My first prayer is for god to kill them. That is rather grandiose. So then i just ask for relief... usually happens, if i take some action. And i still don't know why this god i don't believe in works in my life. These are poor and small examples of how god is in my life everyday, despite my non religious life and conviction, there is no god. Which i think makes me the most spiritual motherfucker around, since my leap of faith is huge. and if you say you live a life w/o faith, you're a liar. since everything we do everyday, is basically faith, since no one really knows for sure, what will happen. Unless you gotta talent like a god would have!!!!
11th December 2007 02:11 AM
pdog
quote:sirmoonie wrote:
Look, I don't know about all that liberal stuff you said, but I'll guaran-fucking-tee that a talking snake convinced the world's first naked woman made out of a rib to eat fruit that made her know she was naked, and then she sowed up some clothes for god with a needle she found, and then god got all pissed (he called it being "wrathful") so he killed a bunch of people, and then god flooded the earth to the highest mountain, and all that water somehow went away somewhere (like outer space of something), and then another guy with tablates parted the sea after that, and then god told the Angel Moroni where he wrote all that stuff down on gold tablates (different tablates - these ones were gold - just in case we didn't know the first time around), but mistakenly buried them in New York state (god can be forgetful), and then in 1978 all negroes were released from the Curse of Cain (Cain killed his brother and was marked by god so god could identify Cain out of the only other two people on earth at the time) by god because a human prophet (his name was Spencer Kimball - he was a very wise Mormon who lived in the 1970s) went to a chamber in Salt Lake City and argued it out with god - ALL that happened - its not my opinion, its a verifiable fact. I can prove it.
If you don't believe me, then maybe YOU can prove how the upcoming Rapture is not going to be untrue? Yeah, I didn't think so.
In my world there is a seperation, from made up freak show stories, and the simple act of living my life. Religous people believe all that crazy weird shit. Me I have no limits put on me, I decide my own. And, there is no God! BUT, there is religion...
11th December 2007 02:22 AM
the good
quote:zooeyglass wrote:
Cite for me the research that has conclusively proved there isn't.
So you won't discuss any of the evidence that you cited above? The theory of evolution and quantum physics put a serious dent in the idea of a designer. But I'll concede they don't prove God doesn't exist, because faith, by definition, is not subject to logical argument. You can always find a reason to include God in science, even when he is clearly not needed. So long as you feel the need to put him there, you will.
11th December 2007 02:23 AM
sirmoonie
quote:pdog wrote:
In my world there is a seperation, from made up freak show stories, and the simple act of living my life. Religous people believe all that crazy weird shit. Me I have no limits put on me, I decide my own. And, there is no God! BUT, there is religion...
Wrong, and your salvation WILL be denied. I can put you on notice of this only a few more times, before I have to turn to saving other posters who are willing to accept what I have told you. I don't have as much funds as the other prophets do.
11th December 2007 02:27 AM
the good
quote:pdog wrote:
Can you elaborate? This really goes nowhere, and if you're trying to say something, you should remember, you need to say something.
The idea of a supreme being, independent of any religious dogma is, in and of itself, harmful because it keeps humanity in a child like state.
11th December 2007 02:30 AM
sirmoonie
quote:the good wrote:
The idea of a supreme being, independent of any religious dogma is, in and of itself, harmful because it keeps humanity in a child like state.
It keeps me intoxicated, so there must be something to it.
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