| December 1st, 2005 08:25 AM |
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| Jumacfly |
quote:
Mel Belli wrote:
I honestly don't hear Ronnie on that track at all. Credit might be a mistake.
I don't hear Ronnie on that album at all and that's very sad. |
| December 1st, 2005 09:22 AM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
Jumacfly wrote:
I don't hear Ronnie on that album at all and that's very sad.
I wouldn't go that far! Ronnie plays some nice things on ABB. He sounds great on "It Won't Take Long" and "Cat." His solo on "We Don't Wanna Go Home" is downright pathetic, though - glad they left that one off. |
| December 1st, 2005 10:06 AM |
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| Jumacfly |
quote:
Mel Belli wrote:
I wouldn't go that far! Ronnie plays some nice things on ABB. He sounds great on "It Won't Take Long" and "Cat." His solo on "We Don't Wanna Go Home" is downright pathetic, though - glad they left that one off.
Correct. but I miss him on many songs!!
My fav part is the slide on "let me down"... |
| December 1st, 2005 11:05 AM |
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| Neocon |
So if it's all Mick, why does Keith get to play lead, solo and bass on the "Oh No Not You Again"? I thought Keith and Mick worked the songs up and then added rehab Ronnie, and Charlie. Mick can't play lead can he? So what would he do on guitar other than rhythym? He can play bass.
Also Mel, do you still think they didn't write songs together and that Mick wrote 13 of the songs on the album, or have you shifted at all?
Did you see Keith's big quote "After Exile we got so used to writing songs seperately because we lived 2000 miles apart we thought it was the Modis Operendi....... this album proved us wrong.....We both learned a lot...." Part of the grand coverup! |
| December 1st, 2005 11:31 AM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
So if it's all Mick, why does Keith get to play lead, solo and bass on the "Oh No Not You Again"? I thought Keith and Mick worked the songs up and then added rehab Ronnie, and Charlie. Mick can't play lead can he? So what would he do on guitar other than rhythym? He can play bass.
Also Mel, do you still think they didn't write songs together and that Mick wrote 13 of the songs on the album, or have you shifted at all?
Did you see Keith's big quote "After Exile we got so used to writing songs seperately because we lived 2000 miles apart we thought it was the Modis Operendi....... this album proved us wrong.....We both learned a lot...." Part of the grand coverup!
Eh? I don't see Keith's playing lead as somehow negating the possibility of Mick writing the song. If Keith played bass and overdubbed fills, it's reasonable to think Mick came up with the basic song and that Keith played along.
When I say a song is completely Mick's, I mean that he came up with the chords, melody and lyrics. I don't discount the possibility of Keith saying, "Hey, why not try a minor chord there?" Or, "Let's not go into the bridge yet; do another chorus." Or whatever. It's like a teacher grading your paper and making suggestions in the margins...
That's what "working up" a song means to me. It's not the same as the initial composition of a song. If Keith had anything substantive to do with ABB songs other than the ones he sings (in addition, likely, to "It Won't Take Long" and "She Saw Me Coming"), it would fall into the category of "record-making," not "songwriting." |
| December 1st, 2005 11:48 AM |
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| Neocon |
Okay. So here is where we diverge:
I think he he did Rough Justice, chorus to Let Me Down Slow but you're probably just forgetting to include those. It's hard to picture Mick coming to Keith with the "Dangerous Beauty" riff. What does Mick say, hey Keith check out this riff "Hey Hey, You got me rocking now." Hard to picture.
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| December 1st, 2005 12:02 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
Yes, "Rough Justice" too. From what I've read about the so-called "barnyard allegory" -- pretty lofty term there -- I guess he came up with the theme too. Although I doubt very much that he wrote the actual lyrics. The "cocks" double entrendre is Mick all the way.
As for "Dangerous Beauty," I'm open to the possibility that Keith had a hand in that. You're right, he does do the YGMR riff - however, it's played underneath the main riff, which is slightly different and played by Mick.
Sorry to sound like a one-note billy on this stuff. My original post was about Mick relying on stop-timing to transition between song parts... |
| December 1st, 2005 12:39 PM |
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| Neocon |
Well divergence from the original point probably won't impact our lives much.... If you don't mind, I don't mind.
I noticed that the intro guitar is low on "It Won't take Long" as well, maybe Keith's idea is to leave them wanting more!
On Dangerous Beauty, is Mick playing the riff the whole way through, or does Keith pick it up at one point? Also do they both play it together at any point and then one guitar plays singularly immediately after as if to have the effect of saying "here I am." I had that thought, but I'd say the riff is derivative.
To be sure there too many Mickish songs. We could have done without Streets of Love, BM, Back of My Hand, Rain Fall Down, Driving Too Fast.... It's dull. I'm skipping those songs now. But he does add good songs like Laugh, and Oh No. The verses to Lmds are basically a variation of dosey doe to the left, dosey doe to the right. |
| December 1st, 2005 01:02 PM |
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| Neocon |
quote:
Mel Belli wrote:
Yes, "Rough Justice" too. From what I've read about the so-called "barnyard allegory" -- pretty lofty term there -- I guess he came up with the theme too. Although I doubt very much that he wrote the actual lyrics. The "cocks" double entrendre is Mick all the way.
As for "Dangerous Beauty," I'm open to the possibility that Keith had a hand in that. You're right, he does do the YGMR riff - however, it's played underneath the main riff, which is slightly different and played by Mick.
Sorry to sound like a one-note billy on this stuff. My original post was about Mick relying on stop-timing to transition between song parts...
What Keith said in Music Connection magazine is "I had some lyrics about chickens and foxes and Mick said we should leave it in the barnyard."
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| December 1st, 2005 01:34 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
What Keith said in Music Connection magazine is "I had some lyrics about chickens and foxes and Mick said we should leave it in the barnyard."
Interesting. Hadn't seen that. Reminds me of how surprised I was when I first listened to the "Keith's Voodoo Lounge" CD from "Voodoo Brew" (or was it "Stew"?). Keith had a lot to do with the lyrics of "Love is Strong," "Sweethearts," "Moon is Up" and "Baby, Break it Down"...
After the Mick-dominated "Steel Wheels," it was nice to see Keith take the reins again on VL. Sadly, I don't think he's done so since... |
| December 1st, 2005 01:43 PM |
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| Neocon |
Yea Mick must have wrote "He who takes chances surely must fall" which is why I don't like baby Break it Down Too Much. Seems like Mick justifying his solo albums on a Keith song. Makes me sick.
Not too sure about Keith on Steel Wheels. I think he did the lame "Almost Hear You Sigh" the decent "Mixed Emotions," the decent "Slipping Away," the aweful "Can't be Seen." Anything else? |
| December 1st, 2005 01:47 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
Yea Mick must have wrote "He who takes chances surely must fall" which is why I don't like baby Break it Down Too Much. Seems like Mick justifying his solo albums on a Keith song. Makes me sick.
Not too sure about Keith on Steel Wheels. I think he did the lame "Almost Hear You Sigh" the decent "Mixed Emotions," the decent "Slipping Away," the aweful "Can't be Seen." Anything else?
Mick retreaded that line -- and it is awful -- on "Dancing in the Starlight," I think. Ick.
...Yup, I think those are the only Keith tunes on SW. I like "Sigh" and "Slipping Away" quite a bit. "Mixed Emotions" doesn't quite hold up today, though I liked it then. "Can't Be Seen" isn't a bad song; it got overproduced. |
| December 1st, 2005 02:46 PM |
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| Neocon |
quote:
Mel Belli wrote:
Mick retreaded that line -- and it is awful -- on "Dancing in the Starlight," I think. Ick.
...Yup, I think those are the only Keith tunes on SW. I like "Sigh" and "Slipping Away" quite a bit. "Mixed Emotions" doesn't quite hold up today, though I liked it then. "Can't Be Seen" isn't a bad song; it got overproduced.
I think Keith's best recent work was largely Voodoo: YGMR, SWF, TW, BB (despite that Mick Line), TAT. But really his best work over the last 15 years is his solo albums. Anyway, it really blows that we waited all this time for new Keith material and didn't get too much. I think I speak for a lot of people on this board who wanted Keith and got Mick by saying "hey Keith go F&#@$%! yourself." |
| December 1st, 2005 03:06 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
I think Keith's best recent work was largely Voodoo: YGMR, SWF, TW, BB (despite that Mick Line), TAT. But really his best work over the last 15 years is his solo albums. Anyway, it really blows that we waited all this time for new Keith material and didn't get too much. I think I speak for a lot of people on this board who wanted Keith and got Mick by saying "hey Keith go F&#@$%! yourself."
I don't think Keith helps himself -- or the Stones -- by more or less constantly antagonizing Mick. I didn't like Goddess, but Keith should've either answered with his own material or kept his mouth shut. |
| December 1st, 2005 03:31 PM |
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| Neocon |
I get the sense Keith thinks Mick should do all the work and make Keith even richer and keep Keith working. Why? Because by and large Keith is responible for more of the classic stones songs from 1964 to 1978 (not to mention Exile). Some exceptions like Brown Sugar, You Can Always get What You Want, IORR and Sympathy. He feels he made Mick from a songwriting point of view and now Mick should not be doing solo albums, but working on Keith's behalf. It's Rough Justice.
By the way, Voodoo Lounge will be seen as the best stones album since Some girls and Talk is Cheap the best solo album. He's too lazy to answer Mick and probably thinks he proved his point. |
| December 1st, 2005 07:05 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
I get the sense Keith thinks Mick should do all the work and make Keith even richer and keep Keith working. Why? Because by and large Keith is responible for more of the classic stones songs from 1964 to 1978 (not to mention Exile). Some exceptions like Brown Sugar, You Can Always get What You Want, IORR and Sympathy. He feels he made Mick from a songwriting point of view and now Mick should not be doing solo albums, but working on Keith's behalf. It's Rough Justice.
You may be right. I think Mick has more than held up his end of the bargain for the last 25 years, however. Whatever the case, I agree with Bono (in that marathon Rolling Stone interview): "He made those guys rich and they made him cool."
[Edited by Mel Belli] |
| December 1st, 2005 09:47 PM |
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| Neocon |
Well maybe after Keith does the Pirates movie, he'll do a narsissitic video call being Keith where he'll do drugs drink, and maybe chat on film with Bono, before reducing him to tears with a murderous litney of insults such as comparing him to Sally Struthers. He can use that momentum for his guest star Santana type album and a stones album he hopefully is hoarding songs for.
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| December 2nd, 2005 07:41 PM |
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| gotdablouse |
quote:
Neocon wrote:
The line "You're a Beauty, such a cutey, how can I resist"? Are you sure that's Mick's lyric? Keith has suggested that he's helped write the song. Right? Then there was a live version of them playing it as much more blues song.
That's interesting, what live version are you referring to ? |
| December 2nd, 2005 10:23 PM |
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| Neocon |
You may remember there was series of interview and performances that were on the web when the album came out. There was an interview with Ronnie Talking about playing Rhythym guitar on "Oh No Not You Again" and was talking about it as "CSI music." Basically calling it Who knockoff. "Oh No Not You Again" was slowed down quite a bit and more of a blues song as I recall. Now my best guess is it was on the Rolling Stone Magazine website. Others on this site probably know where it was. I don't know if the interviews and performances still exist online. There where interviews with most if not all the stones and there were clip such as "Hear Keith playing really loud." Stuff like that. |
| December 3rd, 2005 05:15 AM |
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| IanBillen |
Definately.
Actually It can be traced all the way back to "Throwaway" from Primitive Cool.
It has been showing up here and again and lately it has been all over the place. Only problem is it is Mick solo more than Stones when it is thrown in.
Here and again and done tactfully by the boys is great, no problem. It has been all over the place lately though.
I suspect if, and I say IF very very strongly, IF they record, or put out an album again they will tame that.
The Stones know what they are doing by themselves (and with Don Was in the picture) so they pretty much know when it would be tireing, or old to do something that one more time and they pretty much cut in just when they have too.
For instance those hand drums that do that little part that show up just when the song starts to roll to the end (such as Almost hear your sigh). We have had enough of it. Atleast for now. They left that alone this time. This time it would of been tiring.
So I think IF *strong "if" again, they do decide to record again I think they will drop that bit.
Ian
[Edited by IanBillen] |
| December 3rd, 2005 11:29 PM |
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| Neocon |
Mel, I was justing looking back at a Sept issue of Rolling Stone. Some interesting quotes. Mick jagger "This Time, I got into this thing where Keith would, have an idea and I would put a drum program to it, then I'd play drums over that, create a groove." Keith Richards "A lot of times we'll get together and one of use will play something: 'ph that's nice, but where does it go from there?" "I don't know.' I'll play what I've been doing and one bit will fit exactly with a bit he has."
With the juxtaposition of song parts and riffs in a lot of a bigger you get the sense of different parts. "Oh No," "Look What The Cat Dragged In" and those nice big choruses on the boring country songs. "It Wont Take Long" is lyrically marked by Keith and mick, the concept of this guy with serious contradictions like in the "worst." It's fun in a way, sort of like playing "where's Waldo." Keith should have worn that striped shirt on the album cover. |
| December 5th, 2005 04:54 AM |
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| IanBillen |
[quote]Neocon wrote:
Mel, I was justing looking back at a Sept issue of Rolling Stone. Some interesting quotes. Mick jagger "This Time, I got into this thing where Keith would, have an idea and I would put a drum program to it, then I'd play drums over that, create a groove." Keith Richards "A lot of times we'll get together and one of use will play something: 'ph that's nice, but where does it go from there?" "I don't know.' I'll play what I've been doing and one bit will fit exactly with a bit he has."
With the juxtaposition of song parts and riffs in a lot of a bigger you get the sense of different parts. "Oh No," "Look What The Cat Dragged In" and those nice big choruses on the boring country songs. "It Wont Take Long" is lyrically marked by Keith and mick, the concept of this guy with serious contradictions like in the "worst." It's fun in a way, sort of like playing "where's Waldo." Keith should have worn that striped shirt on the album cover.
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Nawww Mr. Neocon,
Keith only contirbuted to a total of two songs this entire album remember. Forget about The Rolling Stone interview. Hell, forget about the recent DVD release in which everyone keeps saying how the two joined forces on this album more than they have in many albums and many years.
Forget it all. Keith is just a useless load anymore who basically has Jagger do all the writing remember.... 
Ian |
