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Topic: Article: Too Much History Lies in Stones Vault Return to archive
November 21st, 2005 12:46 PM
Jaxx Mark Brown: Too much history lies in Stones' vault

Photo by Edward Keating, New York Times

Paul McCartney goes on tour and pulls out Beatles rarities, pre-Beatles tunes and new songs - along with plenty of hits.
Neil Young does a new album in its entirety at Red Rocks, then plays an equally long set full of fan favorites.

Bruce Springsteen goes on tour and digs deep into his past and still does the songs fans love, including every song off of Tunnel of Love.

U2 played new songs, giant hits, but reached back for The Electric Company, 40 and other early favorites.

The Rolling Stones? They're doing Jumpin' Jack Flash, Brown Sugar and You Can't Always Get What You Want. Again. Again. And again.

With one of the most adventurous catalogs in rock, the Stones too often play the game appallingly safe. The Bigger Bang tour, hitting Pepsi Center on Thanksgiving (tickets are still available through Ticketmaster), might be the first indication that they, too, have gotten fed up with such predictability.

While there are a core of songs they're sticking with - the mentioned hits, along with Start Me Up and a smattering of new songs from their best album in years, A Bigger Bang - there seems to be some cracks in the plaster.

While they're taking songs they've often played on tour - Tumbling Dice, Honky Tonk Women, Miss You - they're at least mixing up the order. And they're also slipping in the occasional lost gem - Sweet Virginia, As Tears Go By.

But for some reason, the Stones always have been reluctant to look deep into their own artistic mirror. It's a puzzle: All their peers (The Beatles, The Who, Bob Dylan) have dug through the vaults, putting out classic material that gives fans greater context on how it all happened.

Not the Stones. Even the Rarities album that's being released soon is nothing more than a compilation of previously released tracks - many of them already included in the "collectible" disc that came with the expanded version of the otherwise expendable Flashpoint live album.

With a couple of rare exceptions, most notably the Gimme Shelter and Rock and Roll Circus DVDs, the Stones have kept the vault locked up tight. Instead of releasing classic performances, they film new DVDs and record new live albums, then go out and tour on those yet again.

In an interview with the News earlier this year, former Stones bassist Bill Wyman says the reason is Mick Jagger's stubborn refusal to revisit older material or excavate the vaults. It's especially puzzling, given that millions of fans would buy Exile on Main Street remastered and expanded with alternate takes, live tracks and the like. And with $400 concert tickets, the band doesn't seem adverse to making money.

Wyman, the band's historian who has put out voluminous work on the band in book form, has a bit of a say in what happens to the actual music, but not much.

"I'm obviously involved in all the stuff that I was involved in originally, but those decisions are always made by Mick, and Mick hates old tracks. He won't have anything to do with them," Wyman said. "That's why it took nearly 30 years for Rock and Roll Circus to come out. He didn't like it originally. So it was never given permission to come out."

Even legitimately released material such as the movie Ladies and Gentlemen the Rolling Stones, one of the finest rock movies of all time that captured the Stones in a 1972 peak and a fan favorite in theaters at the time, is still under lock and key. Bootleggers have run rampant, releasing their own surround-sound mixes of the movie on DVDs struck off of film prints.

That's less than the tip of the iceberg. The Stones always have made superb concert recordings, yet don't release them. Some 1973 European shows with guitarist Mick Taylor were professionally recorded and repeatedly broadcast on the King Biscuit Flower Hour, giving bootleggers plenty of fodder for releases. But they remain officially in the vault. The 1978 Some Girls tour is considered by many the Stones' last great hurrah before the malaise of the '80s and money-grab of the '90s. It was documented extensively, allowing bootleggers to release pristine, four-CD compilations such as Gorgeous Girls. Let's not even talk about Paris 1976, Madison Square Garden 1969 or the absolute wealth of outtakes and alternate takes from the studio. To hear Wyman tell it, tapes exist where you can hear magic taking place.

"They all came about in the same way," Wyman said. "You're in the studio and Keith (Richards), principally, comes up with a riff. You just mess with it. You might mess with it for a week. Then it all jells. Charlie (Watts) gets the right rhythm, I'm playing the right thing, Mick starts to mumble a few word ideas and within a day or so you've got a track.

"Other times . . . they came in with a song roughly together like Satisfaction was. But it was a country ballad when they wrote it. They thought it was a nice album-track filler.

"By the time it came out, it wasn't a country ballad at all. It had completely changed in the studio. While it's changing, you're inventing parts to fit it. It all happens in the studio."

And until Jagger changes his mind, it's staying in the studio, Wyman said.

"He does not like to release old stuff. I do, because I'm an archivist. I would be delighted to do it, but I don't have that capacity."



[email protected] or 303-892-2674
November 21st, 2005 12:52 PM
Joey " The Bigger Bang tour, hitting Pepsi Center on Thanksgiving (tickets are still available through Ticketmaster), might be the first indication that they, too, have gotten fed up with such predictability "

The Denver , CO PCENTER show is still WIDE OPEN ( see : Paris Hilton ) at the $ 400.00 level . Word !

Flacky Joe !


November 21st, 2005 05:35 PM
Jaxx the tix still available are the ones in the $450 dollar range. plenty of my friends that are fans absolutely refuse to pay that chunk of change to hear a revamp of the same old hot rocks (start me up, tumbling dice, jumping jack flash, honkey tonk woman, satisfaction).

i am glad i own studio session out take boots. me thinks these are the "moments of magic" indicated in the article and most of us here have them

also, i'd like to apologize for the redundant post. believe it or not i did check to see if this article was already posted and i somehow missed ten thousand motel's post. sorry.
[Edited by Jaxx]
November 21st, 2005 06:33 PM
gotdablouse hum, how about discussing that interesting article guys !

The flipside of Mick's reluctance to revisit the archives is his (sex) drive to put out new stuff, stay in shape and keep everyone feeling young. One can imagine what the Stones would be like today if he was in the same shape as Keith, Ronnie or even Bill...Having said that he's the one who put Tattoo You together sifting through the archives, but only because he felt he needed an album for the 1981 tour. All this stuff will come out in due time anyway.
November 21st, 2005 07:07 PM
glencar Yet tehy keep putting out these best-of collections & live albums that sell increasingly smaller amounts & a "rarities" collection that's not too rare.
November 21st, 2005 07:36 PM
WhenTheWhipComesDown Saw an article where the Stones had been rumored to play
Banff(?) None of the Stones showed up except for Ronnie Wood.
He came in with tight security and a gang of female admirers.
He played and drank some drinks and chained smoked.

The band at the place loved his playing. He was staying nearby
in some hotel. Wonder where Jo was?
November 21st, 2005 07:39 PM
glencar When was this?
November 22nd, 2005 10:21 AM
Jumacfly I agree 100% with this article.
gimme all your money....
November 22nd, 2005 11:16 AM
pavlovs dog Some people see this as just a couple of old rich guys making a bald faced money grab by throwing a few morsels from the larder to a bunch of half wit fans, but people like me, who talk loudly in restaurants, know the difference.

so, just go and buy the FUCKING album! We all have Criss Cross Man and Cellophane Trousers on bootleg already!!!!

I'm still waiting for the Decca Live album for chrissakes!
November 22nd, 2005 11:19 AM
Jumacfly
quote:
pavlovs dog wrote:
Some people see this as just a couple of old rich guys making a bald faced money grab by throwing a few morsels from the larder to a bunch of half wit fans, but people like me, who talk loudly in restaurants, know the difference.

so, just go and buy the FUCKING album! We all have Criss Cross Man and Cellophane Trousers on bootleg already!!!!

I'm still waiting for the Decca Live album for chrissakes!



buying this album?? what for???
November 22nd, 2005 12:26 PM
The Wick The article is spot on, as is Wyman. Jagger just wants to be "new" and looks like an idiot most of the time by being such a slave to trends. If he mixed things up a little bit more, the result would be far more interesting, and we wouldn't have horrors like Anyway You Look at It to deal with.
[Edited by The Wick]
November 22nd, 2005 12:29 PM
Jumacfly
quote:
The Wick wrote:
The article is spot on, and is Wyman. Jagger just wants to be "new" and looks like an idiot most of the time by being such a slave to trends. If he mixed things up a little bit more, the result would be far more interesting, and we wouldn't have horrors like Anyway You Look at It to deal with.



Dogshit in the doorway comes to mind immediately...
keyboards on "rain fall down" too..
November 22nd, 2005 01:29 PM
pavlovs dog
quote:
Jumacfly wrote:


buying this album?? what for???



For the Artwork, of course!

I'm actually hoping for a better sounding version of Let It Rock!!
November 22nd, 2005 01:42 PM
twicks1
quote:
The Wick wrote:
Jagger just wants to be "new" and looks like an idiot most of the time by being such a slave to trends. If he mixed things up a little bit more, the result would be far more interesting, and we wouldn't have horrors like Anyway You Look at It to deal with.




How is Anyway You Look At It an attempt to be trendy?
(scratches head)
November 22nd, 2005 02:02 PM
The Wick
quote:
twicks1 wrote:



How is Anyway You Look At It an attempt to be trendy?
(scratches head)



I didn't say that it was. It's a load of rubbish which stems from the modern Jagger who tries to incorporate new, and often horrific trends, into every thing he seems to do these days. What results is a tepid soup of mediocrity with the overwhelming taste of imitation and being out of touch. Once in a while, he falls back into mode and does great things like Sweet Thing (I know everyone hated it, but I thought it was brilliant and Jagger back to his best), but for the most part, we get AWYLAI and Already Over Me, not to mention the horrors he delivered on B2B. Incidentally, Richards doesn't escape that much blame either, but he is somehow slightly less culpable for being a slave to trends.
November 22nd, 2005 02:21 PM
twicks1 That song has nothing to do with Jagger trying to be in touch with modern trends. If you had made your case using Might As Well Get Juiced, maybe I could see your point.

If you think it's a poorly written song, just say so.
November 22nd, 2005 02:25 PM
texile anyway you look at it is amazing in its nothingness.
November 22nd, 2005 02:33 PM
The Wick
quote:
twicks1 wrote:
That song has nothing to do with Jagger trying to be in touch with modern trends. If you had made your case using Might As Well Get Juiced, maybe I could see your point.

If you think it's a poorly written song, just say so.



You're not understanding me mate. It's his current songwriting state which creates this horrid mess like Anyway You Look At It. It's the way he approaches things. Whether the song is actually sounds modern or not, is not my point. My point is that in his drive to be a slave to trends, his whole body of work has become a disgrace, with some wonderful exceptions I might add.
November 22nd, 2005 04:48 PM
mrhipfl I don't think Mick tries to be trendy, he just tries to come out with new material and experiment. Why should he come out with the same stuff that he came out with 30 years ago? I say more power to him, even if it does sound like shit. As long as he's trying
November 22nd, 2005 07:55 PM
texile
quote:
mrhipfl wrote:
I say more power to him, even if it does sound like shit. As long as he's trying


lol - sad isn't it?
they never had to TRY so much way back when.......
November 22nd, 2005 08:57 PM
corgi37 I am positive i read some where that they had enough stuff in the can for at least 7 albums. This was in 89 or so. I am sure it was either Bill or ROnnie who said it too.

Obviously, it is either very bad, or they were bullshitting. I'm sure if the band had stuff lying around, they would have released SOMETHING, ANYTHING, in the vast amount of time from B2B to ABB.
November 22nd, 2005 09:00 PM
pavlovs dog
quote:
corgi37 wrote:
I am positive i read some where that they had enough stuff in the can for at least 7 albums. This was in 89 or so. I am sure it was either Bill or ROnnie who said it too.

Obviously, it is either very bad, or they were bullshitting. I'm sure if the band had stuff lying around, they would have released SOMETHING, ANYTHING, in the vast amount of time from B2B to ABB.



Jagger's going to live to be a hundred. The band probably has another 5 years maybe. That leaves 35 year gap in his musical business career. He needs to keep the cash rolling in somehow.
November 22nd, 2005 09:21 PM
mrhipfl
quote:
texile wrote:

lol - sad isn't it?
they never had to TRY so much way back when.......



It's no wonder though. Back then they were young kids who had nothing and were oozing with creativity. They had a reason for making great music. Now they're old rockers who have everything they could ever want, but the creativity and drive they once had are sucked dry. They got no more inspiration in my opinion.
November 23rd, 2005 12:38 PM
texile yes - indulgence kills everything...turns it into mush and latter day stones (with many exceptions) prove that point....
the really good ones though (onnya, not original but passionate) prove they still CAN be inspired - but its so fleeting/
November 23rd, 2005 06:19 PM
Soldatti Maybe we'll get the box set during the 50th Anniversary of the Stones.
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