| November 15th, 2005 10:22 PM |
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| GhostofBrianJones |
I don't care what anyone thinks about Brian Jones. I love the
man AND his music whatever he did. Anyone of us can be a little
s**t and times, so deal with it. If you like/love Brian that is fine.
If you don't then you have a right not to. But as far as Mick and
Keith are concerned for me it is always uncertain how they really
do feel. Personally I don't give a damn either. You like who you
want and so will I and other BJ fans.
As far as playing guitar I think Brian was damned good, he could
have played for me anytime he wanted to.
Brian Jones deserves a lot more respect than people who don't know him give him. Brian started the Stones, named the band
and recruited the members. He was the Stones and still is if he
had not been murdered by a hardened criminal named Frank
Thorogood. Who knows what great music he could have made.
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| November 16th, 2005 10:40 AM |
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| Mathijs |
As I strongly have the feeling you are that dreaded “Miss You” character I shouldn’t even bother to react on you post. But the nice guy I am, I will anyway.
>>>
Well, first of all, if you're going on the accounts of Keith and Mick, then forget it. They've told so many lies, bullshit and tried re-write history over the years it's pathetic. A pathetic joke.
>>>
You believe whatever you believe. I think all of the Stones and all people around Brian have given him all the credit he deserved. No one ever took credit away from him. Read Bill Wyman’s books, read all remarks by Charlie Watts. Both praise him for being the founder of the Stones, being the initiator, being a versatile musician, being a first and true pop star, being one of the first slide players in Britain, being a blues purist. Both give him all credits he deserves. But they also say that Brian was a terrible person to be around, which got worse as the drinking and drugs became heavier. All the Stones have said many times how dreadful it was to see him going down the slope. All Stones have said that they regret that they couldn’t help Brian more when he went down. Read all interviews with all the people of the London 60’s scene. All say the same: great musician, an asshole to be around.
>>>
ALO, Mick and Keith conspired, all ganged up on him, picked on him (Keith admitted in an interview with Playboy that they were "merciless" towards him) and stole his band and music away from him.
>>>
Apparently you have no idea how it works within a band. It’s a pattern you see in 90% off all bands: a couple of guys meet and find out they all have the same dream and passion. They form a band, and start with mostly cover work, or work written especially for them. Then, when success and even fame comes (with the money involved), when the chicks comes, things start to change. Most of the times you see that some guys in the band feel they are more responsible for the fame than others so want a bigger share of the money. They feel they are more responsible due to the fact they write all the songs, or the singer attracts all the attention or whatever. With all bands that have this, you see a struggle for power, and that’s where it goes wrong. There’s enormous amounts of bands who ended like this. As I see it, Brian saw the Stones as his band –even taking a bigger share of the income. But as the Stones got bigger it became clear that Jagger was naturally taking over the role as front man (as ALL singers are the front man), and Jagger and Richards were writing all the good songs. It’s only natural that a power struggle occurred between Jones on one side, and ALO and Jagger/Richards on the other side, and it’s logical Brian lost: he was alone against the rest, and he didn’t have an alternative to offer: he couldn’t write the hit songs needed, he wasn’t a lead vocalist, he wasn’t all that well build for the rigors of the road. If you have a songwriting hit machine in your band, you better sit back and enjoy the ride, or leave. Ask Ringo.
>>
So Brian was miserable. How could you blame him? But you know what? Before the Stones, and after, he was normal. He was relaxed, content and happy. When he quit the Stones he had also quit drugs for good. Why do you think that all of these incredible musicians and songwriters, were knocking on Brian's door and wanted to collaborate and play with him? Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Steve Marriot, Peter Frampton, Steve Winwood, Alexis Korner and on and on.
>>
You twist the truth. First, according to all people who have known him the last months said he looked dreadfully bloated, with black rings around his eyes. His last photos seem to confirm that. Second, autopsy showed a twice as big liver and barbiturates in his blood. Third, all those “famous” people didn’t come knocking on Brian’s door, but he came knocking on their doors. He invited himself at a Jimi Hendrix session, but he was too out of it to actually play anything more than percussion. He never played with Dylan (who last met him in 1966), and playing with Marriot, Frampton, Winwood and Korner was all his very own idea, but all responded that he was on no shape to play, let alone tour (read it in interviews with Jimmy Miller, Alexis Korner and Steve Winwood). Brian hardly laid anything decent to tape since May 1968. Of course when he was kicked out of the Stones he started having all big plans. It just is really said that he didn’t see he needed some sincere help, instead of a new band.
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Actually, Brian started the band. He named the band and recruited all of the members. If it wasn't for Brian Jones, there would be no Rolling Stones. Fact.
>>
Well, I don’t know if it happened like that. I personally more have the feeling that a bunch of young dudes all had the same interests and gathered in a local joint to enjoy and play music, just like many bands started from this scene (Kinks, Cream, Pretty Things, even Led Zeppelin). As Brian was the one with the most experience (he was living as a musician already since 1959) it is only natural that he became the leader, and that he gave directions. It is known Brian didn’t want Keith in the band, as he was too much into Chuck Berry and not Muddy Waters. But as Brian wanted to play with Jagger, he had to take Keith as well. But, you’re right, in the end: without Brian Jones there would have been no Rolling Stones.
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Brian Jones was one of the greatest musicians of the twentieth century. Brian could pick up any instrument and master it in about an hour. Keith Richards himself has confirmed this. Brian could take any instrument and incorporate into the Stones sound, no matter how exotic or peculiar it was.
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I simply disagree with this. There’s only one instrument that he full mastered and that is the blues harp. He has always been a very mediocre guitar player. It just doesn’t go beyond simple rhythm skills. He never “mastered” any of the more exotic instruments. He could manage to play enough to use it on a recording, but that’s something completely different than mastering an instrument. For example, his sitar playing on Paint it Black is amateurishly, but it fits the song beautifully. The marimba on Under My Thumb is brilliant, but very easy to execute (something anyone can learn within an hour). Again, I find all his contributions icing on the cake. The songs are brilliant, that’s the entire point. With a song like Under My Thumb, it doesn’t matter with what instrument you play the intro. The marimba gives it a great 60’s feeling, but guitar, piano, bass or whatever would have yielded the same great song, the same Classic from the 60’s. The same goes for Mick Taylor in my opinion. As much as I admire the guy, he was not crucial for the best work of the Stones. The Stones could have hired any great blues guitarist in 1969, and still Sticky Fingers and Exile would have been made. The fact that after Exile the work of the Stones declined has more to do with Keith’s drug habit and Jagger and Richards not working that close together anymore, than with the leaving of Taylor. Taylor couldn’t prevent Goat’s Head Soup en IORR from becoming mediocre albums (by Stones standards).
>>
Have you ever listened to Between the Buttons? What about Aftermath?
Ruby Tuesday? Paint It Black? Under My Thumb? Lady Jane? Jigsaw Puzzle?
And how about this, have you ever heard of the "A Degree of Murder" soundtrack?
>>
Ruby Tuesday is, according to Bill Wyman in both his books, entirely written by Keith Richards, and Jagger has stated many times in interviews “that’s Keith’s”. Jones’ part is nice, but in fact only follows the vocal melody line. It’s a brilliantly written song, and the key ingredients are the vocal melody and the counter melody of the cello. Further, Jones doesn’t play on Jigsaw Puzzle. It’s a song written entirely by Jagger (he tried to come up with a Dylan-like lyric), and Keith plays the slide guitar. Under My Thumb’s intro is stolen from the Four Tops, and the song is made by Jagger’s snarling lyrics which is totally 60’s. Jones part is nice, but icing on the cake. Lady Jane is great, and in my opinion Jones deserved a writing credit for that. Jagger wrote the melody, but Jones’ part differs so much from the main melody, and it really makes the song, that in my opinion it would have deserved a song credit.
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Let me fill you in: Brian Jones composed an entire score for this German film. That's right. Brian Jones. >>
Oh, and Brian couldn't write a song eh? Yeah, Brian Jones couldn't write a song, even though he composed an entire original score for a film. Right.
>>
You don’t mean this, do you? The soundtrack of A Degree is horrible. It’s noises, sounds, drones, atmosphere. These are not melodies, these are not songs. And, does the fact that Bill Wyman wrote the score for the Green Ice movie make him a great song writer. I think not.
>>
Keith has never, ever come up with anything even remotely resembling this classic tune in almost forty years since Ruby Tuesday was released.
>>
The musical structure of Ruby Tuesday is as typical 60’s Stones as it can get, of which Keith has written most of the music. The descending line of the cello is a typical country style guitar line, which can also be found in Keith songs like She Smiled Sweetly, Dandelion, Sitting on A Fence, The Under Assistant, Sad Day and Mothers Little Helper. The descending line can even be found in Bill Wyman’s In Another Land.
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To this day the Stones can't orchestrate shit compared to what Brian did for them. It's so obvious that Brian was the musical genius behind the Stones.
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Well, what did he do then? He added great pieces of music on songs written by Jagger and Richards. He added images and sketches to songs written by others. This has –in hindsight- resulted in one classic album (Aftermath). The Stones didn’t start to become a full grown recording band until 1968, when Jones was already out of the picture.
>>>
The song was Brian's idea. He started to write it about a groupie friend. He got stuck on the lyrics and went over to Keith's house, where they worked on the lyrics together. In the studio, the music for Ruby Tuesday was all Brian's. He played the recorder, cello and piano for the song. But then, so Bill would have something to play on it, the cello was done again by Bill (with some help from Keith). Apparantly Brian and Keith had a deal where Ruby Tuesday would be credited to Jones/Richards, or at least
>>>
Bla bla bla. Where did you read this? Who told you this? You are making your own truth here. Also, the statement that Bill did the cello part as he then “have something to play on” only shows that you really have no idea on how the Stones work in a studio. Also: the only song you mention that Brian wrote is Ruby Tuesday, and to you that’s the proof he is the genius of the band. Let’s say he did write Ruby Tuesday. Is writing ONE fucking song in 6 years enough to make you the genius of the band? The Stones released about 120 songs from 1963 until 1969, and Brian then wrote ONE of them.
>>
Paint It Black:
Keith apparantly wrote the lyrics, and had music for it which he didn't like. He used the music that Brian came up with when he and Mick were not even in the studio, yet guess who was credited and who wasn't? That is a fact.
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No, this is YOUR fact, your truth. It has been told by all the Stones how the writing went. Especially Wyman keeps telling the story as he likes to emphasize his importance for the Stones by telling this story. Jagger wrote the lyrics while on tour in the US, and it was about him being sick and tired of touring. Keith wrote the chords for it, but in the studio it just didn’t go anywhere UNTIL Bill Wyman suggested to play the bass line on the pedals of the organ, which would then give it this polka marching band rhythm. An overdub of the melody line with the then very fashionable sitar did the rest –an ultra modern (for 1966) rebel song was born.
>>
Honky Tonk Woman:
The main guitar riff to this one has been in question since Ry Cooder early on claimed Keef stole the riff from him. But at about the same time, late '69, an interview was conducted with Brian's father. He said that Brian played the guitar riff to HTW to him at Cotchford Farm, in early '69, around the time the song was about to be recorded. Brian told him the song's riff was his. The thing that always gets to me about this song is that it was the very last one Brian played on (in early Feb, '69) with the Stones. After that he refused to come back to the studio, even though the Stones would send a car to his house everyday to get him. He was pissed and would not show up, and never did again.
>>>
We’ve had this discussion before. It simply is not possible, as the electric Honky Tonk Women wasn’t written when Jones was around –it was the country bends of Mick Taylor that inspired Keith to use the open G guitar he knew from Ry Cooder, and use some riffs he learnt from Cooder. According to Jimmy Miller, sessions in May 1968 were than last sessions that Jones was involved in, yielding No Expectations. Jones wasn’t involved in any of the Let it Bleed sessions, except for ONE overdub of autoharp on You Got the Silver.
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Yeah and Keith Richards is such an awesome guitarist. He's right up there with Hendrix, Page, Clapton, McGlauglin, Taylor et al.
>>>
No, but he has one talent that is even more important than being guitarist: he can write 10 brilliant songs a year.
>>>
If Brian and Mick Taylor were only "icing on the cake", then surely Mick and Keith could've written all of those songs and played all of those guitar solos and instruments all by themselves. Yep, Mick and Keith are brilliant geniouses. They really are up there with Lennon and McCartney. What have they done since Mick Taylor quit? If they're so amazing, surely there must have been an onslaught of classic albums and brilliant material coming out at a ridiculous pace. No more Brian, no more Mick Taylor. Time for Mick and Keith to really shine. The Stones have sucked since Mick Taylor quit. No more classic albums. No more Exiles. No more Sticky Fingers. No more Beggars Banquets. No more Aftermaths. No more Ruby Tuesdays.
>>>
Again, the key factor of the Stones is the song writing by Mick and Keith. The Stones never have been a band where the brilliant solos or brilliant musical parts have made the music. The Stones have always been about grooves, atmosphere, moods and energy. The Stones –and I mean Jagger and Richards- are brilliant producers of music. They instinctly know what a song needs to be excellent, and know which people to hire in order to play something they can’t play. Both Baggers and Exile are full of session people playing parts that are laid out by Jagger and Richards (even the brilliant Nicky Hopkins is instructed how and what to play). Jones is hardly on Beggars (from top of my head: a drone instrument on Street Fighting Man, slide on No Expectations, backing vox on Sympathy (woo woo), mellotron on Stray Cat), as Mick Taylor doesn’t play much virtuoso guitar work on Exile. Exile isn’t about the beautiful solo’s of Taylor. He hardly plays any in the first place, and his contribution of a generic one, one that could have been done by any other top five blues guitar player of 1971. It is all in the songs by Jagger and Richards, and the rhythm section of Watts (and live Wyman) that makes the album so great.
The fact that there is a decline after Exile has, in my opinion, more to do with Richards drug habit, and the Jagger’s jet-setting. The entire relationship between the two changed after the 1972 tour. Also, I believe in the fact that every musical artist has a certain amount of brilliant songs, and that the peak of your musical career is when your in between 25 and 35 years old. This seems to be true for everyone from Paul McCartney to Mozart.
>>>
quote:
Brian doesn't play harp on Beggar's.
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Uh, yes he does. Brian plays on the majority of Beggars Banquet.
>>
There’s harp on two songs: Dear Doctor and Parachute Woman, and they are both done by Mick Jagger.
Mathijs
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| November 16th, 2005 01:36 PM |
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| SheRat |
quote:
The Porkchop Express wrote:
Yes it does. It means everything.
Brian had his band stolen from him. He didn't get credit for his music. He was picked on and treated poorly. Plus, the police were constantly harrassing him. Add in the fact that he was insecure and sensitive, plus he was taking too much acid, amphetamines, weed and hash and you have a very paranoid, miserable individual.
Regardless, he was used and abused. As was Mick Taylor.
You're missing my point. I am not denying anything at all about Brian getting his band stolen, or being abused etc., etc.
I am saying that the fact that all reports from other people being good doesn't mean SHIT in terms of what he was really like to work with.
If you knew anything at all about being in a relationship or being in a band, you'd know that.
You're using vacuous evidence to support a point that can be better supported, thus invalidating your argument. I was just letting you know.
[Edited by SheRat] |
| November 16th, 2005 01:49 PM |
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| glencar |
Let the poor man rest in peace already! |
| November 17th, 2005 06:16 PM |
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| Mathijs |
Miss You, it really shows that you didn't even dare to reply to my post. Sad...
Mathijs |
| November 17th, 2005 09:54 PM |
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| GerryS |
Been reading this thread and I think you're wrong Mathijs..don't think it's Miss U. She was on my board for a long time and I never heard her put down the other Stones that I can remember; in fact she criticised anyone who did. She defended them right along with Brian. Never got into heavy duty music based discussions either. And the writing doesn't seem like her style. So I'm curious..would you have been as brutal in your responses if you thought it wasn't her? It came across to me like you really loathe Brian...and I'm not here to try to change your mind or anything, just curious.
[Edited by GerryS] |
| November 17th, 2005 10:22 PM |
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| Gazza |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Miss You, it really shows that you didn't even dare to reply to my post. Sad...
Mathijs
it aint her |
| November 18th, 2005 04:14 AM |
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| Mathijs |
O.k., apologies to the person who isn't Miss You. The main reason why I thought it was Miss You was the last chapter about Honky Tonk Women -that is word for word the same as one of Miss You's posts on the IORR board.
I did not react the way I did because I thought it was Miss You. I reacted like this because I 1) reacted to a post that I thought was offending and 2) was chock full of lies, mistakes and errors about Brian.
No, I don't hate Brian, but he's not my favorite. As a public figure I just don't find him attractive in any way at all (his looks, stage performance, social behaviour), but what I hate most is that he now is hailed by some as a musical genius while I think he was far from. He couldn't write songs, he was mediocre on most instruments and after 1966 his influence on the music of the Stones turned to zero. I can't stand people making up all kind of things (that are easily to prove they're wrong) only to show he was the true genius behind the Stones. He wasn't. You can like him as much as you want, you can idolize him as much as you want, but don't tell outright lies only to prove you're right in worshipping him.
Mathijs |
| November 18th, 2005 09:56 PM |
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| GhostofBrianJones |
I do NOT worship Brian Jones. I know he had faults like everyone
else. I have many, many books on Brian and like he could be
a horse's behind like the rest of us.
Here is an article on the movie Stones which came out 11-17-05:
A controversial new film about the life & death of Rolling Stone
Brian Jones has premiered, and could land its makers in court.
Jones was found dead in a swimming pool in 1969, aged 27, and
was initially thought to have died from a drunk/drugs overdose.
But director Stephen Woolley film, Stoned, claims he was killed
by his builder Frank Thorogood.
The version of events is based on the testimony of 2 lady witnesses who were at Jones's Sussex mansion on that night.
Thorogood died in 1993 but his daughter is now considering
legal action over the claims made in the film about her father.
Woolley said "This is the truth as I know it until someone can prove otherwise. I based everything I knew on the testimony of
people who were there. Frank's daughter has contacted me
wanting to know about the film. She has not seen it yet and I don't
to discuss what she said to me.
The premiere at the Apollo cinems on Regent Street in central
London attracted a celeb crowd, including Patsy Kensit, Sadie
Frost and her partner Jackson Scott. It was also attended by Leo
Gregory 27, who plays BJ and 23 yr old Amelia Warner, (ex-wife
of Colin Farrell) who plays Nurse Janet Lawson.
Lawson was there the night Jones passed and has never spoken
about what she saw. Woolley tracked her down after hiring a private detective and persuaded her to break her silence. The
film is based on her testimony and that of Anna Wohlin.
Woolley spent 11 years researching the project. Three people
who did not attent the premiere were the other Stones, Mick Jagger, Keith Richards and Charlie Watts. |
| November 20th, 2005 09:53 PM |
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| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
As I strongly have the feeling you are that dreaded “Miss You” character I shouldn’t even bother to react on you post. But the nice guy I am, I will anyway.
nice guy? maybe......misinformed and doesn't know what he's talking about? absolutely
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
You believe whatever you believe. I think all of the Stones and all people around Brian have given him all the credit he deserved.
ahahahahha yeah okay dude
all they've done is slag him off
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
No one ever took credit away from him.
riiiiiiiiiiiiiight
keep dreaming
songwriting credits? hello?
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Read Bill Wyman’s books, read all remarks by Charlie Watts. Both praise him for being the founder of the Stones, being the initiator, being a versatile musician, being a first and true pop star, being one of the first slide players in Britain, being a blues purist. Both give him all credits he deserves. But they also say that Brian was a terrible person to be around, which got worse as the drinking and drugs became heavier.
Been there, done that. When Bill's not talking about how many women he's fucked, he's says some very interesting things about the Greedy Twins. Which, of course, were only further confirmed and taken to another level by Ry Cooder.
"Reptiles", "Reptilian"....."assholes" are some of the words Cooder's used to describe Mick and Keith.
Brian resorted to drink, drugs, isolation because of they way he was treated. He was insecure and lacked the confidence to stand up to all three dickheads: Mick, Keith and ALO. All three could back each other up. Brian was all by himself.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
All the Stones have said many times how dreadful it was to see him going down the slope. All Stones have said that they regret that they couldn’t help Brian more when he went down. Read all interviews with all the people of the London 60’s scene. All say the same: great musician, an asshole to be around.
Yeah, I'm sure they really regret it. Well, maybe sometimes. But they weren't interested in helping him, they were only interested in taking the band away from him, sidlining him so he'd be on the same par/level as Bill and Charlie, and of course, picking on him, being "merciless" (as Keith admitted) assholes who pushed him into a corner.
Did you not read the quotes I posted? Everyone outside of the Stones camp really liked Brian and admired him. It's funny that everyone wanted to collaborate and work with him, yet the same can't be said for Mick and Keith.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Apparently you have no idea how it works within a band.
I won't even include "apparantly": you're a total fruitcake who has no idea what the fuck they're talking about. It's embarrassing reading this shit.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
It’s a pattern you see in 90% off all bands: a couple of guys meet and find out they all have the same dream and passion. They form a band, and start with mostly cover work, or work written especially for them. Then, when success and even fame comes (with the money involved), when the chicks comes, things start to change. Most of the times you see that some guys in the band feel they are more responsible for the fame than others so want a bigger share of the money. They feel they are more responsible due to the fact they write all the songs, or the singer attracts all the attention or whatever. With all bands that have this, you see a struggle for power, and that’s where it goes wrong. There’s enormous amounts of bands who ended like this.
blah blah blah blah blah I'm a semi-professional musician, so I can make sweeping generalizations and think I'm all high and mighty and know everything blah blah blah
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
As I see it, Brian saw the Stones as his band –even taking a bigger share of the income. But as the Stones got bigger it became clear that Jagger was naturally taking over the role as front man (as ALL singers are the front man), and Jagger and Richards were writing all the good songs.
You forgot to include that Mick and Keith had no qualms about taking all of the credit for the work and creativity of the others. The Stones best efforts were group efforts: Sympathy For The Devil, Street Fighting Man, Jumping Jack Flash, Jigsaw Puzzle, etc. etc.
If Mick and Keith were such brilliant geniouses, they wouldn't need the others for help. They could just work on the songs at home and bring them into the studio, ready to record. That's exactly what you think would be the case with the bulk of their strongest material. But it's not. They're greedy ass, ego maniac motherfuckers. Have you seen the Sympathy For The Devil film? The song was initially a crappy ass folk tune, when they presented the song to the group. Brian, jazzes things up immensly by throwing in the E-A-E part, which in turn becomes the backbone of the song: Keith's bass and Nicky's piano parts. We don't see in the film how the song developed into the samba-ish groove, so to speak.....but it's more than likely that Bill and Rocky suggested they add the percussion parts they played. Ditto Jumping Jack Flash. Bill and Brian were jamming in the studio and Bill comes up with the riff. Keith and Mick finally arrive. Bill plays organ, Keith plays bass, Mick writes some great lyrics and Brian plays lead guitar. But who gets all the credit and millions of songwriting royalties?!
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
It’s only natural that a power struggle occurred between Jones on one side, and ALO and Jagger/Richards on the other side, and it’s logical Brian lost: he was alone against the rest, and he didn’t have an alternative to offer: he couldn’t write the hit songs needed,
couldn't write hit songs?
keep dreaming
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
he wasn’t a lead vocalist, he wasn’t all that well build for the rigors of the road. If you have a songwriting hit machine in your band, you better sit back and enjoy the ride, or leave. Ask Ringo.
Talk to Keno
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
You twist the truth.
yeah okay, douche
keep living in your fantasy "Keith is a brilliant genious, Jones is nothing" world, you sound ridiculous
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
First, according to all people who have known him the last months said he looked dreadfully bloated, with black rings around his eyes. His last photos seem to confirm that.
"Tales that Brian waited until the trio had left before breaking down are as exaggerated as the quote from Keith that 'Brian was already effectively dead when he died, because he was already out of the band' was both callous and wildly inaccurate. Brian may have finally severed from the Stones, but he was far from ready to keel over. Years later, Alexis told Brian's son Mark: 'Without a doubt your father felt that a great weight had been lifted off his shoulders once he had finally quit the Stones. He knew what he wanted, and that it was no longer with the band. He wanted back to R&B. He was writing songs too and working very hard. I was with him a lot during this time and he was in very fine fettle indeed.'
Ronni too maintains: 'Naw, naw. All this talk about Brian being crushed is a load of shit! I was in LA by this time, but Brian and I used to ring each other practically every week all the time he was at Cotchford and the truth is he was strong. He knew he was leaving long before he did. He often used to say to me, 'They're wanting me out, Ronni.' And he wasn't being paranoid at all. It was a matter of fact. We used to have some real long talks and even on the end of the telephone I knew he was really off drugs. The high he was in was the real him - the way only Brian could be when he was excited and fired up about something. Believe me, I could tell the difference. He was his old self all right. I was delighted for him.'
"His spirits in fact were excellent all around. Brian called his father one night late, full of joy urgently inviting them to Cotchford. Says Lewis: 'Typical of Brian, we had a call in the early hours of the morning, full of bubbling enthusiasm aboutthe beauties of his house and the loveliness of the particular summer we were having at that time. And he said,'Come down in the morning.' Well, of course, this was easier said than done. I mean we couldn't come down in the morning, but I suppose this was about Tuesday. We did in actual fact go down before the weekend and we spent that weekend with him. We are particularly glad of course now that we went and were able to go because we spent an intensely happy weekend with him. Probably the happiest and closest weekend we'd spent with him since he was a child. And of course it ws in actual fact the last time we ever saw him.'
You know, you can keep on spewing your bullshit, or, you can actually pick up some books and educate yourself. Contrary to all the myths, bullshit and vicious lies (which have really hurt Brian's two sons and are fed up with the demonizing of Brian) Brian was in top spirits when he moved to Cotchford and quit the Stones. Yes, Brian was still drinking too much, but he had quit drugs completely. He was sick of the pressure and harrassment from the corrupt police and wanted to change his life. And given that it was Brian, in the midst of the swinging sixties, being a rock star, that is an amazing feat. (Meanwhile Keith was a hardcore heroin junkie for well over a decade, and there are a lot of people convinced he never truly quit using). Now, if you try to deny this fact, that Brian had quit drugs and was turning his life around, then you're truly an idiot.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Second, autopsy showed a twice as big liver and barbiturates in his blood.
Well, of course. Brian drank too much throughout the sixties. However, if you ever get around to reading some books and getting informed, Brian was drugged the night he was murdered. The police found drugs in the pocked of a coat belonging to Frank Thorogood. Fact.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Third, all those “famous” people didn’t come knocking on Brian’s door, but he came knocking on their doors.
Holy fuck, just shut up
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
He invited himself at a Jimi Hendrix session, but he was too out of it to actually play anything more than percussion.
blah blah blah keep dreaming blah blah blah blah you're so full of shit
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
He never played with Dylan (who last met him in 1966),
Yes they did! Jesus christ, they jammed all the fucking time together. What the fuck is the matter with you? Are you completely fucking retarded?
Dylan and Brian jammed for hours the night of that great black out in NY by candlelight.
This is embarrassing reading this shite.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
and playing with Marriot, Frampton, Winwood and Korner was all his very own idea, but all responded that he was on no shape to play, let alone tour (read it in interviews with Jimmy Miller, Alexis Korner and Steve Winwood).
HAHAHAHAHAH you're so full of shit! I've just provide a quote from Korner (and trust me, there are plenty more just like them) that contradicts your bullshit claims - Brian was turning his life around and was courting all sorts of great talent for his new band.
"Brian's music room at Cotchford was turned into a rehearsal studio, and filled out with two organs, guitars, amps and a drum-kit. Brian set about contacting various musicians he and Alexis had chosen. Steve Marriot was one of the first Brian spoke to. 'We were rehearsing not farfrom Brian's house when he heard that me and Peter were putting a band together,' Marriot recalled. 'Brian rang me and said he would like to come down and have a play. WE THOUGHT GREAT! WE WERE ALL REALLY INTO THE IDEA OF HIM JOINING THE BAND. HE WAS A NICE BLOKE AND A GREAT PLAYER WHEN HE WAS TOGETHER.' Brian also contacted Jimi Hendrix's drummer Mitch Mitchell, Vinegar Joe singer Elkie Brooks, drummer Micky Waller, Walker Brother Gary Leeds, record-producer Jimmy Miller and non other than JOHN LENNON, ALL OF WHOM EXPRESSED INTEREST. Brian was EXCITED but mainly RELIEVED by his friend's support. It was the boost to his musical confidence that he needed. Alexis was happy with Brian's progress but was blissfully unaware that he was in fact paving the way for Brian's departure from The Rolling Stones. By encouraging these new-band plans, Korner was in turn making Mick, Keith and Klein's job of sacking Brian a lot easier. When Alexis EXCITEDLY reported he had got Brian playing again, once for 14 hours solid and ON HIS OWN SONGS, they knew that the time had come to move."
"When in 1969 after a visit to Cotchford Farm Tom Keylock reported to Allen Klein that Jones was in the process of forming his new group - and that Brian was repeatedly boasting that it might include JOHN LENNON - IT WAS FINALLY TAKEN AS A SERIOUS THOUGHT THAT A JONES/LENNON PARTNERSHIP WAS A VERY REAL PROPOSITION, ONE THAT COULD REALLY ROCK BOTH THE ALREADY SHAKY STONES AND BEATLES BOATS. Apart from finishing the Beatles for good, something Klein was desperately fighting to stop happening, it would also have taken a considerable edge off the new-look Stones. 'Will someone tell me,' Klein screamed in angry frustration, 'why we are paying that little shit all of that money - and he's still making trouble?' For once, Klein's anger with Jones became apparent within the Stones' organisation. He was already perceived as a nuisance but now he was considered as a THREAT, and a SERIOUS ONE at that. Brian's predictable but untimely death stopped any such SUPERGROUP being formed but Klein could never have forseen that eventuality."
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Brian hardly laid anything decent to tape since May 1968.
Uh, he was a full and very active participant throughout the Beggars Banquet sessions up until his second drug bust in June '68.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Of course when he was kicked out of the Stones he started having all big plans. It just is really said that he didn’t see he needed some sincere help, instead of a new band.
Uh, it was his idea to go and see a psychiatrist and spend time in a nursing home to avoid a mental breakdown in '67. And he had quit drugs completely and was very happy, content and relaxed (see quotes I've provided).
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Well, I don’t know if it happened like that.
YES IT FUCKING DID YOU PINHEAD. This is a FACT. It has been confirmed by Bill Wyman, Stu, ALO, EVERYBODY. Even KEITH said that the Stones was "Brian's baby." You're clearly clueless.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
I personally more have the feeling that a bunch of young dudes all had the same interests and gathered in a local joint to enjoy and play music, just like many bands started from this scene (Kinks, Cream, Pretty Things, even Led Zeppelin).
blah blah blah blah blah keep on believing your own assumptions and whatever as the truth blah blah blah
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Mathijs wrote:
As Brian was the one with the most experience (he was living as a musician already since 1959)
Well, duh......and actually busking all through Europe when he was barely a teenager.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
it is only natural that he became the leader, and that he gave directions. It is known Brian didn’t want Keith in the band, as he was too much into Chuck Berry and not Muddy Waters. But as Brian wanted to play with Jagger, he had to take Keith as well. But, you’re right, in the end: without Brian Jones there would have been no Rolling Stones.
Well finally, you're actually speaking the truth for a change.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
I simply disagree with this. There’s only one instrument that he full mastered and that is the blues harp.
you're such a tool
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
He has always been a very mediocre guitar player. It just doesn’t go beyond simple rhythm skills.
hahah yeah okay idiot
He was no virtuoso, but didn't you even bother to read those quotes from Bo Diddley and Keith? Oh of course not, because you're more than likely a Keith Richards worshipping douche. Now THERE's a crappy ass guitarist.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
He never “mastered” any of the more exotic instruments. He could manage to play enough to use it on a recording, but that’s something completely different than mastering an instrument. For example, his sitar playing on Paint it Black is amateurishly, but it fits the song beautifully. The marimba on Under My Thumb is brilliant, but very easy to execute (something anyone can learn within an hour). Again, I find all his contributions icing on the cake.
fuckin 'tard
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
The songs are brilliant, that’s the entire point.
no, the songs would be very average, boring and mediocre without Brian's touch
ditto Mick Taylor's
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
With a song like Under My Thumb, it doesn’t matter with what instrument you play the intro.
god, shut the fuck up.....the marimba gave it everything
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
The marimba gives it a great 60’s feeling, but guitar, piano, bass or whatever would have yielded the same great song, the same Classic from the 60’s.
keep dreaming
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
The same goes for Mick Taylor in my opinion. As much as I admire the guy, he was not crucial for the best work of the Stones. The Stones could have hired any great blues guitarist in 1969, and still Sticky Fingers and Exile would have been made.
wrong wrong wrong
If they didn't get Taylor, Humble Pie, Led Zeppelin et al would have buried the Stones, which Zeppelin certainly did when Taylor quit. AND, after what Ry Cooder said about Mick and Keith, there weren't many musicians at all out there afterwards who wanted to work with the Greedy Twins.
AND, Mick Taylor wrote the bulk of Sticky Fingers with Jagger. Keith was really, really strung out on smack throughout much of 1970 and Sticky Fingers is pretty much all Mick & Mick.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
The fact that after Exile the work of the Stones declined has more to do with Keith’s drug habit and Jagger and Richards not working that close together anymore,
nope
Goats Head was really good and may have featured more Mick & Mick material
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
than with the leaving of Taylor. Taylor couldn’t prevent Goat’s Head Soup en IORR from becoming mediocre albums (by Stones standards).
Let It Bleed is very mediocre, a big pile of mediocrity in between Beggars and Sticky Fingers
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Ruby Tuesday is, according to Bill Wyman in both his books, entirely written by Keith Richards, and Jagger has stated many times in interviews “that’s Keith’s”.
That's total bullshit. Bill wasn't even present during a lot of the recording of the song. Bill was only called in when they felt they should give him a part on the song. Again, you've ignored everything I've provided, plus a lot of information from Keno. It's forty years later and Keith is still doing the wannabe Chuck Berry thing.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Jones’ part is nice,
you mean his song is brilliant
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
but in fact only follows the vocal melody line. It’s a brilliantly written song, and the key ingredients are the vocal melody and the counter melody of the cello. Further, Jones doesn’t play on Jigsaw Puzzle. It’s a song written entirely by Jagger (he tried to come up with a Dylan-like lyric), and Keith plays the slide guitar.
YEAH OKAY
Keith Richards could fucking play a steel lap guitar, riiiiiight. Go talk to Keno. You're such a tool, seriously.
You're such a pathetic Keith Richards worshipping idiot. Keith Richards WAS a good songwriter in the 60s and early 70s, but as a musician, he's a total hack and sham. He is a shit guitarist. During the 60s and early 70s, he was AT BEST a decent rhythm guitarist. Get the fuck over it.
Brian played the steel lap guitar and recorder on Jigsaw Puzzle. Again, talk to Keno.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Under My Thumb’s intro is stolen from the Four Tops, and the song is made by Jagger’s snarling lyrics which is totally 60’s.
That's such a crock of shit. "The Last Time" is a total rip-off of a Staple Sisters song. The only original aspect of the song is Brian's lead riff.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Jones part is nice, but icing on the cake. Lady Jane is great, and in my opinion Jones deserved a writing credit for that.
Well, it's about fucking time.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
You don’t mean this, do you? The soundtrack of A Degree is horrible. It’s noises, sounds, drones, atmosphere. These are not melodies, these are not songs. And, does the fact that Bill Wyman wrote the score for the Green Ice movie make him a great song writer. I think not.
Go fuck yourself, seriously. I have clips of the soundtrack and it's fucking amazing. Brian plays a wide variety of different instruments on it.
"Jimmy Page plays guitar, Nicky Hopkins piano and Kenny Jones drums. Brian Jones plays every instrument he'd ever picked up and got a tune out of."
"And it wasn't just that his music was special, it was that the score was so spontaneous, vital. Only Brian could've done it. He had a tremendous feeling for the lyrical parts and knew perfectly the recording and mixing techniques required to achieve the best sound for drums, his guitar or flute et cetera." - Volker Schlondorff, the director of A Degree Of Murder
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
The musical structure of Ruby Tuesday is as typical 60’s Stones as it can get, of which Keith has written most of the music.
fruitcake
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
The descending line of the cello is a typical country style guitar line, which can also be found in Keith songs like She Smiled Sweetly, Dandelion, Sitting on A Fence, The Under Assistant, Sad Day and Mothers Little Helper. The descending line can even be found in Bill Wyman’s In Another Land.
keep dreaming and drooling over Keith you fruit
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Well, what did he do then? He added great pieces of music on songs written by Jagger and Richards. He added images and sketches to songs written by others. This has –in hindsight- resulted in one classic album (Aftermath). The Stones didn’t start to become a full grown recording band until 1968, when Jones was already out of the picture.
nope
Mick and Keith stole his music and took all the credit for it
you're an idiot, Jones is all over Beggars Banquet
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Bla bla bla. Where did you read this? Who told you this? You are making your own truth here. Also, the statement that Bill did the cello part as he then “have something to play on” only shows that you really have no idea on how the Stones work in a studio. Also: the only song you mention that Brian wrote is Ruby Tuesday, and to you that’s the proof he is the genius of the band. Let’s say he did write Ruby Tuesday. Is writing ONE fucking song in 6 years enough to make you the genius of the band? The Stones released about 120 songs from 1963 until 1969, and Brian then wrote ONE of them.
From KENO you stupid fuck
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
No, this is YOUR fact, your truth. It has been told by all the Stones how the writing went. Especially Wyman keeps telling the story as he likes to emphasize his importance for the Stones by telling this story. Jagger wrote the lyrics while on tour in the US, and it was about him being sick and tired of touring. Keith wrote the chords for it, but in the studio it just didn’t go anywhere UNTIL Bill Wyman suggested to play the bass line on the pedals of the organ, which would then give it this polka marching band rhythm. An overdub of the melody line with the then very fashionable sitar did the rest –an ultra modern (for 1966) rebel song was born.
nope
close, but no cigar
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
We’ve had this discussion before. It simply is not possible, as the electric Honky Tonk Women wasn’t written when Jones was around –it was the country bends of Mick Taylor that inspired Keith to use the open G guitar he knew from Ry Cooder, and use some riffs he learnt from Cooder. According to Jimmy Miller, sessions in May 1968 were than last sessions that Jones was involved in, yielding No Expectations. Jones wasn’t involved in any of the Let it Bleed sessions, except for ONE overdub of autoharp on You Got the Silver.
First of all, who was playing lead slide guitar in OPEN G on Little Red Rooster? Hello? McFly?
Second of all, Brian Jone's father and mother were there when he played them the song, at Cotchford Farm. His father even has an early demo of the song, on tape, played and recorded by Brian.
Again, see Keno.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
No, but he has one talent that is even more important than being guitarist: he can write 10 brilliant songs a year.
HAAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
Well, now that there's no more Jones and Taylor, Keith has really put out all sorts of brilliant stuff in the last 30 years!
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Again, the key factor of the Stones is the song writing by Mick and Keith. The Stones never have been a band where the brilliant solos or brilliant musical parts have made the music. The Stones have always been about grooves, atmosphere, moods and energy.
t.r.i.p.p.i.n.g.
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Mathijs wrote:
The Stones –and I mean Jagger and Richards- are brilliant producers of music. They instinctly know what a song needs to be excellent, and know which people to hire in order to play something they can’t play. Both Baggers and Exile are full of session people playing parts that are laid out by Jagger and Richards (even the brilliant Nicky Hopkins is instructed how and what to play).
You're clearly living in a fantasy world.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Jones is hardly on Beggars (from top of my head: a drone instrument on Street Fighting Man, slide on No Expectations, backing vox on Sympathy (woo woo), mellotron on Stray Cat),
Go watch the Sympathy For The Devil film. If Brian was "out of it" and "not really involved", then why the fuck was he in the bulk of the film, sober, content, eager and willing and a full participant? Because Brian was heavily involved with Beggars and plays all over it.
He played acoustic rhythm guitar on the song, although it's buried in the mix. You see this in the film.
Sympathy For The Devil - acoustic rhythm guitar, backing vocals
No Expectations - acoustic lead slide guitar
Dear Doctor - harmonica
Parachute Woman - guitar, harmonica (Mick's harmonica is at the end, Brian's is throughout the song, buried in the mix)
Jigsaw Puzzle - steel lap guitar, recorder (with delay effect)
Street Fighting Man - sitar, tamboura, possibly shehani
Prodigal Son - harmonica
Stray Cat Blues - lead slide guitar, melltron
Factory Girl - nothing
Salt Of The Earth - acoustic guitar, possibly slide but I doubt it
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
as Mick Taylor doesn’t play much virtuoso guitar work on Exile. Exile isn’t about the beautiful solo’s of Taylor. He hardly plays any in the first place, and his contribution of a generic one, one that could have been done by any other top five blues guitar player of 1971. It is all in the songs by Jagger and Richards, and the rhythm section of Watts (and live Wyman) that makes the album so great.
Uh, Gram Parsons? Hello? Um, and yes, Mick Taylor has some terrific lead parts on this album: All Down The Line immediately comes to mind.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
The fact that there is a decline after Exile has, in my opinion, more to do with Richards drug habit, and the Jagger’s jet-setting. The entire relationship between the two changed after the 1972 tour. Also, I believe in the fact that every musical artist has a certain amount of brilliant songs, and that the peak of your musical career is when your in between 25 and 35 years old. This seems to be true for everyone from Paul McCartney to Mozart.
Oh, that's right.....you're a semi-professional musician, so you're clearly an expert on the matter.
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
There’s harp on two songs: Dear Doctor and Parachute Woman, and they are both done by Mick Jagger.
Mathijs
Dude, get in touch with Keno. And stop it....it's embarrasing.
http://keno.org/home.html
[Edited by The Porkchop Express] |
| November 20th, 2005 09:57 PM |
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| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
SheRat wrote:
You're missing my point. I am not denying anything at all about Brian getting his band stolen, or being abused etc., etc.
I am saying that the fact that all reports from other people being good doesn't mean SHIT in terms of what he was really like to work with.
If you knew anything at all about being in a relationship or being in a band, you'd know that.
You're using vacuous evidence to support a point that can be better supported, thus invalidating your argument. I was just letting you know.
[Edited by SheRat]
No I'm not, you're missing my point
The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Nico etc. had no problems recording with Brian. They really liked him. Only Mick and Keith had a problem working with him. They treated him like shit and therefore he was miserable.
I'm just letting you know. |
| November 20th, 2005 09:59 PM |
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| The Porkchop Express |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Miss You, it really shows that you didn't even dare to reply to my post. Sad...
Mathijs
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm usually busy with that thing called "life"
My apologies that my life doesn't revolve around squabbles on an internet message board.
[Edited by The Porkchop Express] |
| November 21st, 2005 02:58 AM |
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| gypsy |
quote:
The Porkchop Express wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm usually busy with that thing called "life"
My apologies that my life doesn't revolve around squabbles on an internet message board.
[Edited by The Porkchop Express]
Sure. Keep telling yourself that. |
| November 22nd, 2005 10:43 AM |
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| Mathijs |
Well, Porkchop, thank you for your intelligent, well-thought and worthy addition to the discussion, It is a pleasure to have a discussion with somebody as enlightened as you are. I must say that I am amazed. Flabbergasted might be a better word actually. I have never ever, in the 15 years time that I am active on Stones journals and message boards like these, read a post that was as disturbed, weird, insane and psychopathic as yours. It isn’t awkward that I first thought you’re Miss You, as she is just a lunatic as you are. I don’t want to go into all of your remarks, as it is useless. But I want to show one remark which in my opinion shows you entire state of mind, and state of health that is:
>>
Go watch the Sympathy For The Devil film. If Brian was "out of it" and "not really involved", then why the fuck was he in the bulk of the film, sober, content, eager and willing and a full participant? Because Brian was heavily involved with Beggars and plays all over it. He played acoustic rhythm guitar on the song, although it's buried in the mix. You see this in the film.
>>
This remark makes as much sense as the remark that Kennedy was shot dead by Green Martians, and it truly shows the weird and sick way you look at Brian Jones. If you watch One+One, you see a wreck. A drugged-out, phased out, alienated wreck of a human being. When you see him, all the stories fall into place. This man is near his end. You say he is eager and willing and fully participating? I see a man that hangs completely stoned in a chair, stuck in a booth with an acoustic guitar that is not even recorded (check the microphone: it’s placed too far away to record anything). Nobody cares about him, nobody notices him. When he makes a sound, people throw cigarettes at him. He is not part of the group anymore, and they all know it.
Another remark shows you absolutely have no clue about writing and making music:
>>
Have you seen the Sympathy for the Devil film? The song was initially a crappy ass folk tune, when they presented the song to the group. Brian, jazzes things up immensly by throwing in the E-A-E part, which in turn becomes the backbone of the song: Keith's bass and Nicky's piano parts. We don't see in the film how the song developed into the samba-ish groove, so to speak.....but it's more than likely that Bill and Rocky suggested they add the percussion parts they played.
>>
The first scenes of the movie show Jagger singing his new song, and shows the band how it goes (Watts has commented that he remembers Jagger singing the song at the Watts’ house). Jagger sings a verse and a bridge, and shows Brian the chords that go with it. Now, for you to know: credit wise THIS SONG IS JAGGER’S SONG ! It doesn’t matter anymore what happens with it in the studio. You can make a samba out of it, an opera, you can have a choir of 100 Castrate sing it in close harmony, you can play 10 blistering guitar solo’s: it will never earn you a songwriting credit! It’s simple as that! The only way you can earn a songwriting credit is to add a structurally different piece of music to the existing melody. Say, Jagger only had a first verse and then Keith adds a bridge, Jagger can decide to give a piece of the credits to Richards. These rules of song credits aren’t made up by the Stones, but are general, international rules. These rules apply to every Stones song ever written. No matter how important Brian Jones is on Ruby Tuesday, no matter he plays a beautiful recorder part, no matter he adds twenty different instruments and makes the song: it’s a melody and lyrics of Keith Richards, and that’s it. And when you look at how the Stones work in the studio: Keith is in complete control. He sits in the middle with the bass, and everbody watches him. Musically he’s the absolute leader, counting in songs, telling people what to do. Even Jagger sits back and let him control the situation. I full understand Jagger gives Keith writing credits. Without Keith, there would be no Stones.
>>
Ditto Jumping Jack Flash. Bill and Brian were jamming in the studio and Bill comes up with the riff. Keith and Mick finally arrive. Bill plays organ, Keith plays bass, Mick writes some great lyrics and Brian plays lead guitar. But who gets all the credit and millions of songwriting royalties?!
>>
There’s only one guy who tells the story like this: Wyman. All other tells Mick and Keith’s story, which is proven by the fact that a tape of a very early session at Jagger’s house is available from JJF (hardly recognizable, but the riff is there) and several other Beggars tracks. Get a copy of VGP’s “Surrey Rehearsals” I would say, then you know the truth.
>>
Keith Richards could fucking play a steel lap guitar, riiiiiight. Go talk to Keno. You're such a tool, seriously.
>>
You’re a total idiot. You rely all your theories on ONE website that is chock full of erroneous information. USE YOUR EARS! A recorder with delay in Jigsaw Puzzle? There is no fucking recorder in Jigsaw, that’s a fucking Moog synthesizer played by Bill Wyman! Lead slide in Stray Cat? There is no fucking slide in Stray Cat! Use your ears! “Steel lap guitar” (er…”lap steel” that is) in Jigsaw Puzzle? That is not a lap steel, that is a standard brass slide. The Melobar (nothing more than a lap steel which hangs on a strap) used on Love in Vain and Let it Bleed played by Keith wasn’t introduced before 1969, and a lap steel/Melobar sounds entirely different. Acoustic guitar in Sympathy? Where do you hear that? Tell me, where can YOU hear an acoustic? Sitar and Shehani on Street Fighting Man? There is no sitar on SFM. There is ONE drone instrument, and that’s a Tambura (with a “U”, not “OU”). The Shehani is played by Dave Mason from Traffic, brought in by Jimmy Miller in order to have a sparing partner for Keith as Jones was useless on the sessions. Don’t take everything from keno’s site as “truth”. An example:
Jigsaw Puzzle by Keno:
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Acoustic Guitar: Keith Richards
Electric Slide Guitar: Brian Jones
Mellotron: Brian Jones
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
For real:
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Acoustic Guitar: Keith Richards
Electric Slide Guitar: Keith Richards
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Keith Richards
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Moog synthesizer: Bill Wyman
The bass is the easiest to recognize: that’s a guitar player playing bass, and it’s true and true the pumping style of Keith, not Bill. The slide is 100% Keith. Check out his turn-around at 1:12, you can’t find any better piece of signature Keith, this is one of the licks he got from Cooder. Supposedly Brian plays mellotron on Jigsaw Puzzle, but as with the percussion Brian supposed to play on Midnight Rambler, in twenty years time I have not been able to hear it. The eerie sound under the acoustic guitar is a Moog synthesizer played by Bill Wyman, the same one as can be seen being used by Jagger in performance.
USE YOUR FUCKING EARS!
The other songs:
Sympathy:
Bass: Keith Richards
Electric lead guitar: Keith Richards
Lead vocals: Mick Jagger
Background vocals: Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, (Marianne Faithfull), Nicky Hopkins & Jimmy Miller
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Percussion: Charlie Watts
Congas: Rocky Dijon
Maracas and shaker: Bill Wyman
Some sources mention Wyman, Watts, Pallenberg and Brian Jones singing the “Whoo Whoo’s” as well, but if you check the One+One film closely you see they remain mute –apparently someone gave clear instructions who could sing along. Also, you don’t hear female voices. It seems the shot was staged especially for the camera.
No Expectations:
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Bass: Bill Wyman
Acoustic slide guitar: Brian Jones
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Dear Doctor:
Drums: Charlie Watts
Up-rite bass: Bill Wyman
Acoustic guitars: Keith Richards & Dave Mason
Lead vocal: Mick Jagger
Harmony vocal: Keith Richards
Harmonica: Brian Jones
Tack piano: Nicky Hopkins
The harmonica is too technically advanced to be Jagger, and features the signature Brian Jones turn-arounds, as he plays in Not Fade Away for example.
Parachute Women:
Bass drum: Charlie Watts
Up-rite bass: Bill Wyman
Acoustic guitars: Keith Richards
Electric guitars: Keith Richards
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Harmonica: Mick Jagger
The harmonica is in the exact same style as Turd on the Run: sucking a note, and then bending it flat, almost into distortion. That’s typical of Jagger, who hasn’t got the technical skills of Brian. All guitars are 100% typically Keith.
Street Fighting Man:
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Keith Richards
Acoustic guitars: Keith Richards
Vocals: Mick Jagger
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Tambura: Brian Jones
Shehani: Dave Mason
You can only hear one sitar-like instrument, in the same channel as the piano. This sitar is only droning on the G-chord, and it is not fretted anywhere else in the song. Thus, this sitar must be a tambura, and it’s played by Brian.
Prodigal Son
Hi-Hat and kick: Charlie Watts or Jimmy Miller
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Shout and laughter: Keith Richards
Harmonica: Mick Jagger
Some sources (Ry Cooder himself for example) claim it’s Keith and Cooder on guitar, and Jimmy Miller on drums. I clearly hear one guitar only (even on the stereo mix available in bootlegs), and that surely is Keith, not Cooder. Drums: I really don’t know, as the drums are too simplistic to recognize the style. As there’s few claims of it being Miller, I’d go for Watts.
Stray Cat Blues:
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Keith Richards
Electric guitars: Keith Richards
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Mellotron: Brian Jones
Congas: Rocky Dijon
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Sources claim Wyman plays bass, but it 100% is Keith. All guitars are Keith, and it factually is the first open D song recorded together with Child of the Moon. There is no slide guitar to be heard. The mellotron can only faintly be heard at the outro of the song.
Factory Girl:
Tabla: Charlie Watts
Up-rite bass: Bill Wyman
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Mandolin: Dave Mason
Fiddle: Rik Grech
The violin by Grech is actually a fiddle. Some sources claim Cooder playing the mandolin, but according to Jimmy Miller it’s Dave Mason. I can’t decide on the playing style.
Salt of the Earth:
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Slide electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead vocals: Mick Jagger & Keith Richards
Background vocals: Watts Street Gospel Choir
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
>>>
Keith Richards WAS a good songwriter in the 60s and early 70s, but as a musician, he's a total hack and sham. He is a shit guitarist. During the 60s and early 70s, he was AT BEST a decent rhythm guitarist. Get the fuck over it.
>>>
Well, if you take a look at the list of the musicians on Beggars, the key musician and composer is Keith. Not a bad album then for a “total hack and slam”. You can call me that anytime after I made one of rocks’ best ever records. Of course not, this is Brian’s album. Did Jimmy Miller erase all his brilliant parts then? Kidnapped by Martians?
And your last remark
>>
Let It Bleed is very mediocre, a big pile of mediocrity in between Beggars and Sticky Fingers
>>
You’re right. The album that contains what the Stones and their fans contain their best tracks ever (Gimme Shelter, Midnight Rambler, Monky Man, You Can’t Always Get) and tracks that have been or are staples live ever since (Love in Vain, Live With Me) is actually a very mediocre album.
You’re right, 20 million Stones fans are wrong. You need serious professional help.
Mathijs
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| November 22nd, 2005 08:35 PM |
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| Amethyst |
Street Fighting Man:
The basic track of that was done on a mono cassette with very distorted overrecording, on a Phillips with no limiters. Brian is playing sitar, it twangs away. He's holding notes that wouldn't come through if you had a board, you wouldn't be able to fit it in. But on a cassette if you just move the people, it does. Cut in the studio and then put on a tape. Started putting percussion and bass on it. That was really an electronic track, up in the realms. - Keith Richards, 1971
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| November 23rd, 2005 05:51 AM |
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| Mathijs |
quote:
Amethyst wrote:
Street Fighting Man:
The basic track of that was done on a mono cassette with very distorted overrecording, on a Phillips with no limiters. Brian is playing sitar, it twangs away. He's holding notes that wouldn't come through if you had a board, you wouldn't be able to fit it in. But on a cassette if you just move the people, it does. Cut in the studio and then put on a tape. Started putting percussion and bass on it. That was really an electronic track, up in the realms. - Keith Richards, 1971
A sitar and tambura (or tanpura) are visually almost the same instruments -basically a tambura is a sitar without frets and without sympathetic strings. A sitar has 5 or six playable strings run over movable frets, while 12 unplayable sympathetic (drone) strings run underneath the frets. A tampura has five playable strings with no frets, making it incapable of playing melodies unlike the sitar. A sitar is a melodic instrument, a tambura is only used as a drone instrument.
The different in sound is sometimes hard to hear. A tambura has the same basic sound as a sitar, but due to the lack of drone strings the "chime" and "twang" is missing. Also, in western music it becomes evident the tambura is only capable of playing the root chord with a third added. The sound of the sitar-like instrument underneath the piano in Street Fighting Man is a tambura to my ears, not a sitar. It is known Brian did experiment with a tambura, and according to Jimmy Miller Brian played a tambura on SFM, not a sitar.
Mathijs |
| November 23rd, 2005 11:49 AM |
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| GhostofBrianJones |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
As I strongly have the feeling you are that dreaded “Miss You” character I shouldn’t even bother to react on you post. But the nice guy I am, I will anyway.
I am NOT Miss U, like Gazza said. She does NOT post on this board anymore as far as I know.
>>>
Well, first of all, if you're going on the accounts of Keith and Mick, then forget it. They've told so many lies, bullshit and tried re-write history over the years it's pathetic. A pathetic joke.
>>>
You believe whatever you believe. I think all of the Stones and all people around Brian have given him all the credit he deserved. No one ever took credit away from him. Read Bill Wyman’s books, read all remarks by Charlie Watts. Both praise him for being the founder of the Stones, being the initiator, being a versatile musician, being a first and true pop star, being one of the first slide players in Britain, being a blues purist. Both give him all credits he deserves. But they also say that Brian was a terrible person to be around, which got worse as the drinking and drugs became heavier. All the Stones have said many times how dreadful it was to see him going down the slope. All Stones have said that they regret that they couldn’t help Brian more when he went down. Read all interviews with all the people of the London 60’s scene. All say the same: great musician, an asshole to be around.
Brian was an alcoholic/drug addict. I am a recovering drug/alcoholic -addict. When an addiction like this is involved it changes one's personality entirely. Plus I believe Brian was also
suffering from Depression, in my humble opinion. All of these have definite affects on any person's behavior. I know I have all
three. I was also a teenager in the 1960's and since most of the
folks here are much younger than me, I can say it was a time when
most people did NOT know about the real dangers of the drugs
they were taking since the Sixties was all flower power, anti-Establishment and live for today and hell with tomorrow. But drugs and booze, music, sex have been around in all phases of society
since time began.
>>>
ALO, Mick and Keith conspired, all ganged up on him, picked on him (Keith admitted in an interview with Playboy that they were "merciless" towards him) and stole his band and music away from him.
>>>
Apparently you have no idea how it works within a band. It’s a pattern you see in 90% off all bands: a couple of guys meet and find out they all have the same dream and passion. They form a band, and start with mostly cover work, or work written especially for them. Then, when success and even fame comes (with the money involved), when the chicks comes, things start to change. Most of the times you see that some guys in the band feel they are more responsible for the fame than others so want a bigger share of the money. They feel they are more responsible due to the fact they write all the songs, or the singer attracts all the attention or whatever. With all bands that have this, you see a struggle for power, and that’s where it goes wrong. There’s enormous amounts of bands who ended like this. As I see it, Brian saw the Stones as his band –even taking a bigger share of the income. But as the Stones got bigger it became clear that Jagger was naturally taking over the role as front man (as ALL singers are the front man), and Jagger and Richards were writing all the good songs. It’s only natural that a power struggle occurred between Jones on one side, and ALO and Jagger/Richards on the other side, and it’s logical Brian lost: he was alone against the rest, and he didn’t have an alternative to offer: he couldn’t write the hit songs needed, he wasn’t a lead vocalist, he wasn’t all that well build for the rigors of the road. If you have a songwriting hit machine in your band, you better sit back and enjoy the ride, or leave. Ask Ringo.
I have only the books about bands to tell me how being in a band
works. A person does NOT have to be in a band to know how drugs and booze can affect any relationship.
>>
So Brian was miserable. How could you blame him? But you know what? Before the Stones, and after, he was normal. He was relaxed, content and happy. When he quit the Stones he had also quit drugs for good. Why do you think that all of these incredible musicians and songwriters, were knocking on Brian's door and wanted to collaborate and play with him? Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Steve Marriot, Peter Frampton, Steve Winwood, Alexis Korner and on and on.
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Brian Jones was miserable because he was messed up all the time. Plus he had no self-esteem, had a lot of bitterness, anger and resentment from his childhood, and then got into music scene,
met other musicians who introduced him into drugs, and booze.
These two just MADE HIM EVEN WORSE!! When a person is an
addict, the thing(s) they are addicted to become the MOST important thing in their life. Nothing else on earth matters, everything else is secondary. Addiction is a DISEASE!! Brian was sick from his addictions.
You twist the truth. First, according to all people who have known him the last months said he looked dreadfully bloated, with black rings around his eyes. His last photos seem to confirm that. Second, autopsy showed a twice as big liver and barbiturates in his blood. Third, all those “famous” people didn’t come knocking on Brian’s door, but he came knocking on their doors. He invited himself at a Jimi Hendrix session, but he was too out of it to actually play anything more than percussion. He never played with Dylan (who last met him in 1966), and playing with Marriot, Frampton, Winwood and Korner was all his very own idea, but all responded that he was on no shape to play, let alone tour (read it in interviews with Jimmy Miller, Alexis Korner and Steve Winwood). Brian hardly laid anything decent to tape since May 1968. Of course when he was kicked out of the Stones he started having all big plans. It just is really said that he didn’t see he needed some sincere help, instead of a new band.
Back then there WAS NO real help for addicts. People thought
others with addictions were WEAK, STUPID and terrible people.
Brian DID indeed need help. And being bloated is from your body
being affected by the years of substance/drug abuse. After TWO
time in rehab and 2 times outpatient, I was sick myself. As the
stuff leaves you body you need meds to help with withdrawals,
and after about 6 mos to even a year you start to function somewhere near normal again. But you need SUPPORT from
others as well who are going through the same thing or have gone
through it. Brian did NOT have that. Intervention was NOT even
heard of when he was living. Also addicts do NOT listen to anyone
who is NOT an addict themselves because they do NOT know
a damn thing about what it is.
Actually, Brian started the band. He named the band and recruited all of the members. If it wasn't for Brian Jones, there would be no Rolling Stones. Fact.
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Well, I don’t know if it happened like that. I personally more have the feeling that a bunch of young dudes all had the same interests and gathered in a local joint to enjoy and play music, just like many bands started from this scene (Kinks, Cream, Pretty Things, even Led Zeppelin). As Brian was the one with the most experience (he was living as a musician already since 1959) it is only natural that he became the leader, and that he gave directions. It is known Brian didn’t want Keith in the band, as he was too much into Chuck Berry and not Muddy Waters. But as Brian wanted to play with Jagger, he had to take Keith as well. But, you’re right, in the end: without Brian Jones there would have been no Rolling Stones.
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Brian Jones was one of the greatest musicians of the twentieth century. Brian could pick up any instrument and master it in about an hour. Keith Richards himself has confirmed this. Brian could take any instrument and incorporate into the Stones sound, no matter how exotic or peculiar it was.
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I simply disagree with this. There’s only one instrument that he full mastered and that is the blues harp. He has always been a very mediocre guitar player. It just doesn’t go beyond simple rhythm skills. He never “mastered” any of the more exotic instruments. He could manage to play enough to use it on a recording, but that’s something completely different than mastering an instrument. For example, his sitar playing on Paint it Black is amateurishly, but it fits the song beautifully. The marimba on Under My Thumb is brilliant, but very easy to execute (something anyone can learn within an hour). Again, I find all his contributions icing on the cake. The songs are brilliant, that’s the entire point. With a song like Under My Thumb, it doesn’t matter with what instrument you play the intro. The marimba gives it a great 60’s feeling, but guitar, piano, bass or whatever would have yielded the same great song, the same Classic from the 60’s. The same goes for Mick Taylor in my opinion. As much as I admire the guy, he was not crucial for the best work of the Stones. The Stones could have hired any great blues guitarist in 1969, and still Sticky Fingers and Exile would have been made. The fact that after Exile the work of the Stones declined has more to do with Keith’s drug habit and Jagger and Richards not working that close together anymore, than with the leaving of Taylor. Taylor couldn’t prevent Goat’s Head Soup en IORR from becoming mediocre albums (by Stones standards).
Brian was not a musical genius in the true sense of the word.
He learned as much as he could from the instruments he played
to get the feel of them probably. He did not take lesson or anything
(I don't think) just played by ear to see what he could learn at the
time. But he was a HOT guitar player, and sliding guitar player.
Muddy Waters liked his playing very much.
Have you ever listened to Between the Buttons? What about Aftermath?
Ruby Tuesday? Paint It Black? Under My Thumb? Lady Jane? Jigsaw Puzzle?
And how about this, have you ever heard of the "A Degree of Murder" soundtrack?
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Ruby Tuesday is, according to Bill Wyman in both his books, entirely written by Keith Richards, and Jagger has stated many times in interviews “that’s Keith’s”. Jones’ part is nice, but in fact only follows the vocal melody line. It’s a brilliantly written song, and the key ingredients are the vocal melody and the counter melody of the cello. Further, Jones doesn’t play on Jigsaw Puzzle. It’s a song written entirely by Jagger (he tried to come up with a Dylan-like lyric), and Keith plays the slide guitar. Under My Thumb’s intro is stolen from the Four Tops, and the song is made by Jagger’s snarling lyrics which is totally 60’s. Jones part is nice, but icing on the cake. Lady Jane is great, and in my opinion Jones deserved a writing credit for that. Jagger wrote the melody, but Jones’ part differs so much from the main melody, and it really makes the song, that in my opinion it would have deserved a song credit.
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Let me fill you in: Brian Jones composed an entire score for this German film. That's right. Brian Jones. >>
Oh, and Brian couldn't write a song eh? Yeah, Brian Jones couldn't write a song, even though he composed an entire original score for a film. Right.
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You don’t mean this, do you? The soundtrack of A Degree is horrible. It’s noises, sounds, drones, atmosphere. These are not melodies, these are not songs. And, does the fact that Bill Wyman wrote the score for the Green Ice movie make him a great song writer. I think not.
I have never heard it. (GOBJ)
Keith has never, ever come up with anything even remotely resembling this classic tune in almost forty years since Ruby Tuesday was released.
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The musical structure of Ruby Tuesday is as typical 60’s Stones as it can get, of which Keith has written most of the music. The descending line of the cello is a typical country style guitar line, which can also be found in Keith songs like She Smiled Sweetly, Dandelion, Sitting on A Fence, The Under Assistant, Sad Day and Mothers Little Helper. The descending line can even be found in Bill Wyman’s In Another Land.
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To this day the Stones can't orchestrate shit compared to what Brian did for them. It's so obvious that Brian was the musical genius behind the Stones.
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Well, what did he do then? He added great pieces of music on songs written by Jagger and Richards. He added images and sketches to songs written by others. This has –in hindsight- resulted in one classic album (Aftermath). The Stones didn’t start to become a full grown recording band until 1968, when Jones was already out of the picture.
>>>
The song was Brian's idea. He started to write it about a groupie friend. He got stuck on the lyrics and went over to Keith's house, where they worked on the lyrics together. In the studio, the music for Ruby Tuesday was all Brian's. He played the recorder, cello and piano for the song. But then, so Bill would have something to play on it, the cello was done again by Bill (with some help from Keith). Apparantly Brian and Keith had a deal where Ruby Tuesday would be credited to Jones/Richards, or at least
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Bla bla bla. Where did you read this? Who told you this? You are making your own truth here. Also, the statement that Bill did the cello part as he then “have something to play on” only shows that you really have no idea on how the Stones work in a studio. Also: the only song you mention that Brian wrote is Ruby Tuesday, and to you that’s the proof he is the genius of the band. Let’s say he did write Ruby Tuesday. Is writing ONE fucking song in 6 years enough to make you the genius of the band? The Stones released about 120 songs from 1963 until 1969, and Brian then wrote ONE of them.
Brian did NOT know how to write songs. The Glimmer Twins were
ruthless in their efforts to keep the other band members out of
the songwriting team of the Stones. They finally let Bill have some
credit on a song, he even wrote an album Monkey Grip if I got this
right. They have always stuck to the two of them writing songs
pretty much.
Paint It Black:
Keith apparantly wrote the lyrics, and had music for it which he didn't like. He used the music that Brian came up with when he and Mick were not even in the studio, yet guess who was credited and who wasn't? That is a fact.
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No, this is YOUR fact, your truth. It has been told by all the Stones how the writing went. Especially Wyman keeps telling the story as he likes to emphasize his importance for the Stones by telling this story. Jagger wrote the lyrics while on tour in the US, and it was about him being sick and tired of touring. Keith wrote the chords for it, but in the studio it just didn’t go anywhere UNTIL Bill Wyman suggested to play the bass line on the pedals of the organ, which would then give it this polka marching band rhythm. An overdub of the melody line with the then very fashionable sitar did the rest –an ultra modern (for 1966) rebel song was born.
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Honky Tonk Woman:
The main guitar riff to this one has been in question since Ry Cooder early on claimed Keef stole the riff from him. But at about the same time, late '69, an interview was conducted with Brian's father. He said that Brian played the guitar riff to HTW to him at Cotchford Farm, in early '69, around the time the song was about to be recorded. Brian told him the song's riff was his. The thing that always gets to me about this song is that it was the very last one Brian played on (in early Feb, '69) with the Stones. After that he refused to come back to the studio, even though the Stones would send a car to his house everyday to get him. He was pissed and would not show up, and never did again.
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We’ve had this discussion before. It simply is not possible, as the electric Honky Tonk Women wasn’t written when Jones was around –it was the country bends of Mick Taylor that inspired Keith to use the open G guitar he knew from Ry Cooder, and use some riffs he learnt from Cooder. According to Jimmy Miller, sessions in May 1968 were than last sessions that Jones was involved in, yielding No Expectations. Jones wasn’t involved in any of the Let it Bleed sessions, except for ONE overdub of autoharp on You Got the Silver.
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Yeah and Keith Richards is such an awesome guitarist. He's right up there with Hendrix, Page, Clapton, McGlauglin, Taylor et al.
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No, but he has one talent that is even more important than being guitarist: he can write 10 brilliant songs a year.
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If Brian and Mick Taylor were only "icing on the cake", then surely Mick and Keith could've written all of those songs and played all of those guitar solos and instruments all by themselves. Yep, Mick and Keith are brilliant geniouses. They really are up there with Lennon and McCartney. What have they done since Mick Taylor quit? If they're so amazing, surely there must have been an onslaught of classic albums and brilliant material coming out at a ridiculous pace. No more Brian, no more Mick Taylor. Time for Mick and Keith to really shine. The Stones have sucked since Mick Taylor quit. No more classic albums. No more Exiles. No more Sticky Fingers. No more Beggars Banquets. No more Aftermaths. No more Ruby Tuesdays.
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Again, the key factor of the Stones is the song writing by Mick and Keith. The Stones never have been a band where the brilliant solos or brilliant musical parts have made the music. The Stones have always been about grooves, atmosphere, moods and energy. The Stones –and I mean Jagger and Richards- are brilliant producers of music. They instinctly know what a song needs to be excellent, and know which people to hire in order to play something they can’t play. Both Baggers and Exile are full of session people playing parts that are laid out by Jagger and Richards (even the brilliant Nicky Hopkins is instructed how and what to play). Jones is hardly on Beggars (from top of my head: a drone instrument on Street Fighting Man, slide on No Expectations, backing vox on Sympathy (woo woo), mellotron on Stray Cat), as Mick Taylor doesn’t play much virtuoso guitar work on Exile. Exile isn’t about the beautiful solo’s of Taylor. He hardly plays any in the first place, and his contribution of a generic one, one that could have been done by any other top five blues guitar player of 1971. It is all in the songs by Jagger and Richards, and the rhythm section of Watts (and live Wyman) that makes the album so great.
The fact that there is a decline after Exile has, in my opinion, more to do with Richards drug habit, and the Jagger’s jet-setting. The entire relationship between the two changed after the 1972 tour. Also, I believe in the fact that every musical artist has a certain amount of brilliant songs, and that the peak of your musical career is when your in between 25 and 35 years old. This seems to be true for everyone from Paul McCartney to Mozart.
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quote:
Brian doesn't play harp on Beggar's.
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Uh, yes he does. Brian plays on the majority of Beggars Banquet.
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There’s harp on two songs: Dear Doctor and Parachute Woman, and they are both done by Mick Jagger.
Mathijs
I am not familiar enough to say who played what on what song.
I just listen to the Stones when Brian was in the group as I like
those songs better. Maybe the band members do not have to be
musical geniuses but good enough to incorporate their own skills
to be acceptable in being a member of the group.
You guys can go around and around with this, but all I know is the
that drinking/drugging for around 30 years, attending meetings,
has given me alot more insight into what addicts to and how it
affects their behavior.
I love Brian Jones, always have always will. Good, bad or inbetween. Keep postin' and roastin'! |
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