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With Ziggy Modeliste at the International Amphitheater, Chicago - April 30, 1979

Henry Diltz
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Topic: Brian Jones on homosexuality and abortion. Return to archive
11-16-02 06:34 PM
sasca I asked this on the board of the Brian Jones Trip, but no-one was sure: was Brian Jones the first r'n'r' musician to mention these subjects in an interview?

"...questioning some of the basic immoralities which are tolerated in present-day society - the war in Vietnam, the persecution of homosexuals, illegality of abortion and drug-taking. All of these things are immoral." - Brian Jones, 1966.
11-16-02 07:06 PM
VoodooTattoo brilliant Brian...what about stealing from the workplace and beating up and raping women?
11-16-02 07:14 PM
sasca Strange. I canīt seem to mention Brian Jones without provoking an hysterical response.
1 - thereīs no reason I know of to say he raped anyone.
2 - I donīt give a damn about a personīs sex. I donīt see why men should have to put up with violence and I donīt see why women should be expected to collapse at the first sign of it.
3 - there was a great deal of violence about the Stones. Mick and Chrissie Shrimpton regularly beat each other. Brian was attacked by a girlfriendīs mother. (There still is - Keith attacked Ronnie during the 'Bridges to Babylon' sessions.)
4 - Mick and Keith also stole when young.
11-16-02 07:33 PM
gypsy Sasca, we all know about the violence. Brian hit Anita. Anita hit Brian. Keith hit Anita. Anita hit Keith. It's ALL wrong. Why do you want to argue about it all the time? You act like it's okay if Brian hit Anita back cuz she hit him first. Sounds a little too much like the TV show "Cops," when the wifebeater claims "She hit me first." It doesn't matter!
11-16-02 07:37 PM
sasca I...but...I...are you stoned? Where did I say that? My point was that it is hypocritical to blame Brian for everything unpleasant about the Stones. I DON'T want to discuss this - if you'll look at the topic of this thread I asked about Brian's views on homosexuality and abortion. Then that ill-informed prat started bitching about violence. Jesus fuck.
11-16-02 08:19 PM
VoodooTattoo I'm not an ill-informed prat, bitch. I just don't think Brian of all people should be one to speak out on moral issues because he was obviously an immoral person by anyone's standards.
11-16-02 08:21 PM
sasca So he screwed up. So that's it for him. What?
11-16-02 08:45 PM
SirMuddy I suppose (Cuz I don't know him) Brian wasn't an angel...
But may he haved some good side too?
And some good words too sometime?
For me saying that about homosexuality and abortion in 1966
was a-head of his time...
The guy is cold dead 30 years ago...
May we forgive him the bad and remember the good?
If not... we're not better than what we said about him...
11-16-02 10:43 PM
11-16-02 10:58 PM
Boomhauer Ouch!
11-17-02 12:42 AM
gypsy Sasca, why are you so obsessed with Brian in the first place? There are MANY unsolved murders out there. And, I'm sure that some of these people, although not celebrities like Brian, contributed a hell of a lot more to society than Brian did.
My dad fought in Vietnam with a lot of young men whose lives were far more valuable than Brian's. Yeah, it's easy to comment on the Vietnam War being wrong-when you're not over there fighting it!
And, as for abortion, I can see why Brian would be all for it. We sure as hell know he didn't really want to be a father to his six illegitimate children. Of course, you and Miss U always argue that Brian was only 27 when he died, and he would have eventually been a great father to his children. There is no way to know that.
So, I'm sick of hearing about Brian's fucking potential. He had his chance, and he fucked up. End of story. And, it's up to his family whether or not they want to open up the murder investigation. And, yeah, I think Brian was murdered that night. I think things got way out of hand, and the so-called 'construction workers' killed him. But, they're not going to start talking now, if they're still around. So, in other words, your petition is going to go nowhere. And you can just sit and ponder the night of Brian's demise all you want, and it's not going to change a damn thing.
11-17-02 12:58 AM
TheSavageYoungXyzzy Well, good for Brian that he said that. But his band said it, it's the singer not the song. Because Brian Jones, world-renown for not exactly being kind to women and wrecking his life on the mind-bending drugs of the era, said this, it loses a lot of credibility. And I'm not saying Brian was the only one in the world or even in the Stones who did that. Ronnie & Keith have gotten into fights for years - in '82 on tour Josephine ran into Keith's room crying that Ronnie was stoned and drunk again - Keith walked into Ronnie's room and jumped on top of him, beating the living crap out of him, with Ronnie giving as good as he got. After about fifteen minutes, they kinda gave up and walked in to see Mick, all bruised and bloody. He asked them how the middle eight of "Summer Romance" went.

I just like that story and now seemed as good a time as any to slip it in. Hmm... now I need rationale... oh, yeah, so everyone's got their violent stretches. It'd be like Keith going on TV and saying "Heroin is bad for you. Take it from me, Keith Richards, whose most predominant urban legend is one that has me going to Switzerland to get a new batch of blood every three years."

But back to the point - It's a good sentiment, but coming from our deceased buddy Brian doesn't help it any.

And why did you feel the need to post this? To somehow exonerate Brian? News Flash: Brian's dead. We don't know what would have happened had he lived. And no matter what we as Stones fans may learn about him, a vast majority of the world will always remember him as the guy who beat his girls, had hordes of illegitimate children and died by misadventure in his pool after Keith Richards had eerily predicted that he'd never make thirty.

-tSYX --- Do ya, Mr. Jones?
11-17-02 01:43 AM
VoodooTattoo Im glad it was Brian and not Keith...then Brian would be doing now what Keith is doing...having a blast on tour! Forget about all of this beating a dead horse and enjoy the show!
11-17-02 05:48 AM
icydanger I doubt it very much, Brian on tour? He would not be with the Stones any more if still alive.He would of died naturally around 40, from bad hygiene bad food and depression like Elvis.
11-17-02 07:00 AM
TheSavageYoungXyzzy wrote:
Ronnie & Keith have gotten into fights for years - in '82 on tour Josephine ran into Keith's room crying that Ronnie was stoned and drunk again - Keith walked into Ronnie's room and jumped on top of him, beating the living crap out of him, with Ronnie giving as good as he got.

Ronnie is Keith's bitch.

Just listen to how Keith dominates him while they are pissed and recording the backing vocals on Voodoo Stew disc 4.

[Edited by fmk438j]
11-17-02 08:50 AM
Honky Tonker As much as I respect Brian as a musician, I wouldn't use him as a moral compass.
11-17-02 08:55 AM
sasca Umm, guys, I just asked if Brian was the first to mention these topics. I said nothing about his death or a petition.
Gypsy, Iīm interested in Brian. This is a Stones board. We get many posts about Keith. Why not about Brian? And donīt you have a site dedicated to Anita Pallenberg?
11-17-02 09:17 AM
fmk438j wrote:

Ronnie is Keith's bitch.

Just listen to how Keith dominates him while they are pissed and recording the backing vocals on Voodoo Stew disc 4.

I don't have that one (or indeed most others, *shame*), but you is correct. Ronnie is indeed as whipped by Keith as he is by his wife. But when they is playing together, it's that fightin' spirit that spits out The Weave - because they both get so much from playin' the guitar *at* each other.

As for Brian being the first? No, I don't think so. Maybe the most high-profile at his time, but there was a whole lotta that going on in the mid-to-late-sixties, mostly spoken by people like Brian who would end out dead or wrecked by 1970.

-tSYX --- If I ever get out of here, thought of givin' it all away, to a registered charity, all I'd need is a pint a day... (Again, hell with ya. I like this song. 'Specially live.)
11-17-02 09:18 AM
lotsajizz Sasca, wake up!!!
11-17-02 09:53 AM
Sir Stonesalot I understand your question sasca. I don't know if we can answer it. Saying those words in 1966 would be considered radical at that time. Was Brian the first to speak of these things in the 60's? I kinda doubt it. Perhaps he was the first musician to speak on it, I can't think of any other musician, off the top of my head, who made a statement like that in 1966 or before.

I think it is more likely that he got that from some of the more radical youth movement types of the time, and was just spreading the rhetoric. I think he was attracted to the image of being considered a radical. I don't know if he actually believed what he was saying, or if he was just saying it for effect.

I think what others in this thread are saying, sasca, is that actions are louder than words. What I find interesting is that Brian was so concerned about the plight of homosexuals, yet had very little concern about the plight of his own children. Brian was very concerned about people making violence on each other in Viet Nam, yet he had no compunction against making violence on women that he claimed to love. I think it goes without saying that we all understand why Brian would be all for abortion rights, he did have quite a number of unwanted children.

Anyone can say words that look great on paper. It's something else entirely to back the words up with actions. I'm sure that you can see the hypocritical nature of the quote that you posted.
[Edited by Sir Stonesalot]
11-17-02 11:21 AM
sasca But much the same can be said of his contemporaries. I donīt think you can dismiss his views as being picked up from others and worn as fashionable gear. All those close to him saw him as concerned about many issues - which, as you say, he did not neccessarily follow up as one might have wished. 'There's something spiteful in me....' I'm sure he thought of his own experiences when speaking of abortion. Why not?
And I'm not sure about the distinction between words and other actions. To say things like that opened him up to attack. Not physical:0)
(Although come to think of it, when he was sent to prison the other prisoners mocked and threatened him, thinking he was gay because of his appearance.)
11-17-02 11:26 AM
full moon Sasca, why are the two topics you posted regarding Homosexuality?? This one and The Bowie topic.. Would you like to come out to us???
11-17-02 12:00 PM
Sir Stonesalot >I donīt think you can dismiss his views as being picked up from others and worn as fashionable gear.<

I think you can EASILY dismiss those statements as being picked up from others(perhaps Bobby Dylan, whom Brian was fascinated with at the time.), and worn as a fashion statement. I don't see that as a stretch at all. IMO, your version, that he actually thought those statements up, and was comitted to those causes, is more of a stretch. IMO, Brian didn't care about much else besides Brian. I'm betting it was all window dressing.

I'm not saying this to be mean to either you or Brian. I just call it like I see it.
11-17-02 12:03 PM
sasca Ah, well, SS, letīs leave it at that. I donīt see why Dylan should be believed and not Brian but if you do, you do.
And full moon, I certainly wouldnīt kick Mick or Dave out of bed.
11-17-02 01:12 PM
Sir Stonesalot I didn't say that I'd believe Dylan more than Brian.

Dyalan was a huge liar! He'd say anything that would create a certain "air" about him. He claimed to have been a carnival worker, a hobo, anything but a middle class jew from backwoods Minnesota! Saying radical things was what "protest folkies" Dylan did it too.

All I'm inferring is that Brian, being heavily influenced by Bob, could have picked some of that "radicalism" from that crowd. Think about it. At that time, Dylan was one of the biggest rock stars on the planet. Even the Beatles paid homage to him.

I take everything "stars" say with a grain of salt. Most of them just say shit that they think people want to hear, or will make them look a certain way. Jaded? You bet.
11-17-02 04:52 PM
Gazza >I doubt it very much, Brian on tour? He would not be with the Stones any more if still alive

well...he wasnt actually IN the Stones either when he DIED!!
11-17-02 05:07 PM
gypsy Yes, sasca, I do have an Anita site. What's your point? I don't post much about her here.
Of course there are a lot of Keith topics here...I think that has more to do with the fact that he's ALIVE.
So, what is your goal with this whole Brian thing? Everyone on this board pretty much acknowledges that Brian was an excellent musician. But, if you want everyone here to sign your little petition and become Brian enthusiasts, then you're barking up the wrong tree.
11-17-02 06:47 PM
sasca My point about your site is that youīre hardly in a position to call me obsessive. Iīve posted a few messages; you have a whole site. (And nothing wrong with that. I have not insulted your interest in Anita)
This is a site about the Stones. Of course Keith is still doing things which deserve discussion but I see no notice informing me that topics should be restricted to the present and recent past. Bridges to Babylon is more recent than Beggar's Banquet - that doesn't mean it is more worthy of discussion.
I don't see why have you decided that any mention of Brian equals fanaticism. I think it's an interesting question. That's all.
[Edited by sasca]
11-17-02 10:34 PM
11-18-02 09:19 AM
sonicrock i m a with you sasca