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Topic: Mick bowes out and I think others should do the same when it comes to politics.....From Ian Return to archive Page: 1 2
November 4th, 2004 01:48 AM
IanBillen
I read that Mick was asked on his election thoughts and he stated he was raised to not comment about another countries elections.
I think this is a class statement. Too many artists are involved with politics. I don't feel it is their place to lead the banner one way or another.

While some Stones tunes sing about political views they never come right out and state an opinion one way or another. Also many of these songs can pertain to many different situations other than politics such as Gimme shelter or Street fighting Man.

I am sick of Bono trying to save the world. I am sick of Michael Stipe trying to liberalize America (and I am nor liberal Demorcrate or Conservative Republican per say). And this whole thing with Bruce Springsteen and the Dixie Chics with a tour based on politics and the election is stupid and out of place.

These artists should remember that they are there to entertain and make good music. Sure you can slide a lyric here or there where you may have to read between the lines about politics but to totally jump on this political bandwagon is idiotic.

Ian

November 4th, 2004 02:02 AM
Bloozehound dude

the turn out showed it

springsteen can slink his ass back to Jersey and wait to capitalize on the next "big event"

November 4th, 2004 06:25 AM
caro I don't get it. Are politics something obscene that people with a sense of decency should keep to themselves? I thought politics were a public matter.
IMO, if politics are an important part of a musician's life, it's only natural that he would want to write political songs, or become a militant. To say that musicians "are there to entertain" is a very restrictive and somewhat scornful view, IMO. Let's say you love world music. Would you have the nerve to go tell some arab or indian band that their religious songs suck, and that they're here to entertain? Some musicians don't separate their music from their beliefs -- if it bugs you, just don't go to their gigs. They don't owe you anything.
And don't go telling me that they're using their fame to influence people. The audience is not that manipulable (except maybe for kids, but teenybopper acts are not very political anyway). I mean, the huge spin machines of the major parties are in action 24/7. What do you have to fear from some little singer trying to convert you to his opinions?
Now regarding Mick, I think it's cool that he doesn't want to be involved. But I also think it's cool that Bono puts so much energy into politics, despite all the shit he gets for it. Whether he's fighting the good fight is another question.
November 4th, 2004 06:33 AM
bez85 SHUT UP AND PLAY YOUR GUITAR!
November 4th, 2004 07:45 AM
LadyJane Artists are individuals who have just as much right to voice their opinions on issues as anyone else.

Don't forget...you are always free to turn off the song, the radio station or simply ignore them.

LJ.
November 4th, 2004 09:34 AM
Gazza
quote:
LadyJane wrote:
Artists are individuals who have just as much right to voice their opinions on issues as anyone else.

Don't forget...you are always free to turn off the song, the radio station or simply ignore them.

LJ.



CORRECT. and no doubt if they supported the same side as the people who are bitching about them having the cheek to voice their opinions, there wouldnt be a word about it. Is someone like Springsteen any more or less qualified to try and get people to vote a certain way than Schwarzenegger, who probably gained a substantial portion of his votes because of his celebrity status in the first place. If youre a citizen of any country youve every right in a peaceful manner to try and persuade other people to think like yourself. If a garbage collector or bishop can voice his opinions, then so can a musician or an actor.

However, Mick Jagger isnt a tax payer or a resident in the US. For him to have chosen to comment at length or campaign for either candidate would have been insulting and ridiculous. For the same reason, other 'foreigners' such as Bono - however laudable a lot of their other stands may be on certain humanitarian and environmental issues - should have drawn the line and kept their noses out of the internal politics of a country they dont live in.
[Edited by Gazza]
November 4th, 2004 09:37 AM
Monkey Woman Great post, Gazza. That sums it up in a nutshell.
November 4th, 2004 10:10 AM
mac_daddy
November 4th, 2004 10:18 AM
ResidentMule Mick made an excellent professional decision. there's few things more obnoxious than hearing Alice Cooper or Ted Nugent rant about how if you don't wanna go to war your an idiot hippy, and there's few things more obnoxious than Bono no matter what he's doing.

but, when an artist chooses to use their voice to express a political opinion, I don't have a problem with it usually. gaining support is one thing, bashing people is another. after hearing Alice Coopers bullshit rant about our 'fearless leader' being the ONLY person capable of managing the country, and basically how anyone who believes otherwise is dillusional, I have to say I would lose some respect for him, if I had any to begin with. but so long as we're all given a right to intelligently speak our opinions (not even necessarily intelligently), why should celebrities (more particularly artists, because most "celebrities" *should* learn to keep their mouths shut more often for their own benefit) be any different. I would hope they would have the most to say and can provide an alternative view. and anyone who fears that celebrities are trying to "influence" (and when I say that in quotes, I mean 'brainwash') people's opinions should realize that if you can't come up with some type of thought on your own, your an idiot
November 4th, 2004 10:33 AM
Ten Thousand Motels
quote:
IanBillen wrote:
And this whole thing with Bruce Springsteen and the Dixie Chics with a tour based on politics and the election is stupid and out of place.




They can say what they want, when they want, how they want. As can Alice Cooper and Ted Nugent and anybody else. That's what the First Amendment is all about.
November 4th, 2004 10:46 AM
Gazza good points, TTM and ResidentMule. Plus if we left all political comment to politicians then we'd end up taking all their spin, bullshit and lies at face value.

sometimes it takes other observers - even amateur ones - to point out how full of shit most politicians are
[Edited by Gazza]
November 4th, 2004 01:32 PM
ResidentMule
quote:
Ten Thousand Motels wrote:

They can say what they want, when they want, how they want. As can Alice Cooper and Ted Nugent and anybody else. That's what the First Amendment is all about.



yes. they can. I support their right. how they go about expressing their opinion I still find obnoxious. does that mean they shouldn't have the right? NO. does that mean they have good judgement? also no


quote:
Gazza wrote:
good points, TTM and ResidentMule. Plus if we left all political comment to politicians then we'd end up taking all their spin, bullshit and lies at face value.

sometimes it takes other observers - even amateur ones - to point out how full of shit most politicians are
[Edited by Gazza]



what I mean by the 'good kind of celebrity activism' is the ones who encourage people the think for themselves. yes, many of them do it by presenting statistics & basically propaganda with a clear agenda and that will create a huge bias, but giving people a reason to go out there and find more facts, whether they be to support that view or to rebutt it, its at least a step towards people thinking independantly. hopefully thinking independantly will someday make elections about something other than democrats vs. republicans
but you need to get your information from SOME kind of outside source. hell, you may criticise people for getting facts from Michael Moore or Tom Morello, but if you go home and get your information from FOX News, your really not gaining any perspective
November 4th, 2004 04:05 PM
Dan I thought Alice Cooper said anyone who bases their votes on a rock star says is a total idiot. If Mick was playing benefit concerts for Bush or Kerry that would probably be the end of it as far as my relationship with the Stones goes. He made a smart business decision by not only staying out of it but by stating he has been asked his opinion, he has one but is still staying out of it.
November 4th, 2004 05:30 PM
Bloozehound
quote:
Dan wrote:
I thought Alice Cooper said anyone who bases their votes on a rock star says is a total idiot.



Alice makes a very good point.


Micks a smart dude, and very business minded.

Instead of alienating 59 million American fans and settling for 55 million or vice versa, he wisely decided to keep his mouth shut and keep the potential 130 million fans. Then there's the European fans to factor in too.

Smart guy, but we already knew that anyways right, just wonder if he'll continue to stay neutral in the coming future
November 4th, 2004 08:58 PM
Soldatti Great point Gazza.
November 5th, 2004 12:50 AM
Bloozehound
quote:
Gazza wrote:
CORRECT. and no doubt if they supported the same side as the people who are bitching about them having the cheek to voice their opinions, there wouldnt be a word about it. Is someone like Springsteen any more or less qualified to try and get people to vote a certain way than Schwarzenegger, who probably gained a substantial portion of his votes because of his celebrity status in the first place. If youre a citizen of any country youve every right in a peaceful manner to try and persuade other people to think like yourself. If a garbage collector or bishop can voice his opinions, then so can a musician or an actor.




Gazza, Schwarzenegger has basically quit his entertainment career in exchange to become a politician, he IS a politician believe it or not. He's even married into a very infamous political family over here.

Bruce IS NOT a politician.

Schwarzenegger has put alot on the line and earned his POLITICAL VOICE. From what I can gather he's doing an "ok" job running the 5th largest economy in the world aka Cal-ee-for-nee-a.

Bruce on the other hand holds no office. He's not the Guv of Jersey, or even a mayor, nor at any city council is he sittin' in a chair. He's just an activist, a hired gun. Does he have a right to voice his political opinion, sure he does!

Is his "political opinion" any more prevalent than Joe Blow Shmoo off the street. No. He's not run for any office, or put anything on the line.

If he had we wouldn't have any problem with it.

So yes there is a weeeee bit of a difference between the two using their popularity and drawing power to encourage a vote.

Besides the youth vote that Springsteen was in charge of appealing too was split right down the middle, democrat & republican. Bruce and the boys didn't make a dent. If you ask me they probably did more harm than good. People got offended and motivated to shut them down.

Basically the bottem line is this -- we love our entertainers, but we (Americans) are fed up with our entertainment trying to pursuade us politically everytime we tune in these days.

It must be written into their contracts nowdays, because it's reached a fevered pitch like never before and some are quiet sick of being told how to vote(or die!!!), like some 59 million people.

We'd rather leave the politic-ing to the politicians, and the entertaining to the entertainers.

Don't mean to rant, but these past 2 days have been great days to be an American, it's like we finally shut their asses up(the media)

V

Victory

November 5th, 2004 01:25 AM
ResidentMule
quote:
Dan wrote:
I thought Alice Cooper said anyone who bases their votes on a rock star says is a total idiot.


he did. then he talked about how using music to sell you politics was a treason against rock n roll, and rock stars should keep their mouths shut about politics because lets face it, rock stars aren't smart people and thats what we have politicians for anyway

then he used the second half of the interview to plug why America should vote for Bush, and that we can't let the pussy liberals take over

that was pretty much the idea
so, Alice Cooper=hypocrite
the fact that I never liked his music makes it easier for me to call him an asshole
November 5th, 2004 01:28 AM
ResidentMule
quote:
Bloozehound wrote:

Gazza, Schwarzenegger has basically quit his entertainment career in exchange to become a politician, he IS a politician believe it or not. He's even married into a very infamous political family over here.

Bruce IS NOT a politician.



Bloozehound, you just came up with a profound idea, and you may not even realize it. Don't you see?? making Bruce a true politician will stop him from continuing to make music!
I guess I shouldn't come down that hard on him. he made some good music back in the day. in fact, its probably only been the last few years when he's become more of a political tool that I've been hoping he'd shut up

quote:
Bloozehound wrote:
Is his "political opinion" any more prevalent than Joe Blow Shmoo off the street. No. He's not run for any office, or put anything on the line.


Bruce may not be an authority, but I'm more cautious about hearing & believing political opinion from the pros who are acting for their own agenda. yeah, i get real tired of Bruce, and the rest of the usual handful of spokespersons too, but who are you gonna trust, Dick Cheney?
[Edited by ResidentMule]
November 5th, 2004 01:33 AM
IanBillen
Yes Musicians certainly can have opinions. But to promote it all the way is stupid, and it really takes away from their stigma, and secondly...most fans are not there for a political ralley. They are there to hear music and be entertained. If I want to go to a political ralley I'll visit my local town hall.
Just imagine Mick pointing out what a democrate he is and how he is against the whole Bush thing. The republican Stones fans out there would surely view him differently now.

Imagine Mick pointing out his republican stance and if he stated how Kerry wouldn't get his vote. The democratic Stones fans would view him differently.

Some would be reluctant to maybe buy an album, or even go to see Mick with the Stones anymore. That is how strong the whole Republican Vs.Democrat thing has gotten anymore. And that is over-board.

*Bruce is not smart, neither is Stipe, or the Dixie Chics, and Bono is an idiot. One minute I see him on CNN with his Camo hat rallying to save a rain forest in Africa, the next I see his face glued to the TV singing Vertigo on an i-pod advertisement, then you flip to Fox News and see him in a rally to fight for world peace in Zimbobway, then ya switch to MTV and he is singing something from Achtung Baby on a music video.....and you expect people to still take him as a Rock Star or take him serously ? ? ? It really ruins it all.
Ian
November 5th, 2004 05:32 AM
Gazza
quote:
Bloozehound wrote:
Gazza, Schwarzenegger has basically quit his entertainment career in exchange to become a politician, he IS a politician believe it or not. He's even married into a very infamous political family over here.

Bruce IS NOT a politician.

Schwarzenegger has put alot on the line and earned his POLITICAL VOICE. From what I can gather he's doing an "ok" job running the 5th largest economy in the world aka Cal-ee-for-nee-a.


I know hes quit his entertainment career to become a politician. I'd like to think so, for the benefit of the people he's representing However, my point was he USED his celebrity status as a stepping stone to gaining political credibility. Would his campaign for Governor of California have done so well had he been just some other guy with an Austrian accent running for office? I've nothing against the guy personally, but any career politician in my eyes relies on opportunism. Arnie's no different in that respect.

>Bruce on the other hand holds no office. He's not the Guv of Jersey, or even a mayor, nor at any city council is he sittin' in a chair. He's just an activist, a hired gun. Does he have a right to voice his political opinion, sure he does!
Is his "political opinion" any more prevalent than Joe Blow Shmoo off the street. No. He's not run for any office, or put anything on the line.


I never implied he WAS a politician - nor that his opinion is any more or less credible than anyone else. Both parties used non-politicians to mobilize their potential electorate.


>If he had we wouldn't have any problem with it.


Dont agree. You dont think that in the US in 2004 that a musician nailing his colours to the mast in support of a Presidential candidate in such a divided society is not "putting anything on the line"? I do. I doubt it would have made him new fans and would probably have cost him some. As someone who subscribes to Bruce's fan magazines and is registered on fan websites, hes pissed off a lot of the more Republican-minded elements of his fan base by doing so. Granted, hes rich enough where losing some fans will hardly make him a pauper, but at least he acted out of his own personal beliefs and not with his pocket. A lot of artists would have kept their mouths shut regardless of what side they were on for the SOLE reason that they would have been too paranoid about polarising their fanbase. As a fan of Springsteen's, whether he's a Democrat or Republican doesnt really concern me personally and wouldnt have made any difference to me either way, but I dont have a problem with him endorsing a political candidate in a free and democratic election.

>So yes there is a weeeee bit of a difference between the two using their popularity and drawing power to encourage a vote.

a weeeee bit, indeed. Same ballpark, though...

>Besides the youth vote that Springsteen was in charge of appealing too was split right down the middle, democrat & republican. Bruce and the boys didn't make a dent. If you ask me they probably did more harm than good. People got offended and motivated to shut them down.
Basically the bottem line is this -- we love our entertainers, but we (Americans) are fed up with our entertainment trying to pursuade us politically everytime we tune in these days.
It must be written into their contracts nowdays, because it's reached a fevered pitch like never before and some are quiet sick of being told how to vote(or die!!!), like some 59 million people.

another way of looking round that is that you're less likely to get lies and spin from someone who isnt running for political office than from someone who has more to gain and lose who IS wanting your vote. I guess it depends on how you view politicians in general. Personally, I'm entirely cyncical about all of them as a rule. If you take them at face value, thats your choice. At the end of the day, though - if the media didnt spend so much time reporting on some celebrity's campaigning for a candidate, then no one would give a shit about it.

>We'd rather leave the politic-ing to the politicians, and the entertaining to the entertainers.


By the same yardstick, does that mean that coming on to a Stones message board, you should only have an opinion on the Stones and nothing else? People have used these boards for months and years to argue with other people in the minutest detail about politics, often to the point where its beyond tedious. I doubt any of the people concerned are politicians by profession. You think thats of any more worth than some actor or musician expressing an opinion? I'd agree that listening to unqualified entertainers rant about politics is tedious, but no more or less than it is when the same platitudes come from others.

I'd agree with residentmule (again) above. Anyone who feels the NEED to be influenced by a celebrity or who who feels brainwashed by it because they cant come up with an idea of their own on who to vote for is a fucking idiot.


[Edited by Gazza]
November 5th, 2004 07:33 AM
Taptrick

What can a poor boy do?
Cept to sing for a rock n' roll band.
Cause in sleepy London town there's JUST NO PLACE FOR A STREET FIGHTING MAN!

~
November 5th, 2004 09:06 AM
Sir Stonesalot Hey Ian.....take this!

Working For The Clampdown--Strummer/Jones

What are we gonna do now?
Taking off his turban, they said, is this man a Jew?
'Cause they're working for the clampdown
They put up a poster saying we earn more than you!
When we're working for the clampdown
We will teach our twisted speech
To the young believers
We will train our blue-eyed men
To be young believers

The judge said five to ten-but I say double that again
I'm not working for the clampdown
No man born with a living soul
Can be working for the clampdown
Kick over the wall 'cause government's to fall
How can you refuse it?
Let fury have the hour, anger can be power
D'you know that you can use it?

The voices in your head are calling
Stop wasting your time, there's nothing coming
Only a fool would think someone could save you
The men at the factory are old and cunning
You don't owe nothing, so boy get runnin'
It's the best years of your life they want to steal

You grow up and you calm down
You're working for the clampdown
You start wearing the blue and brown
You're working for the clampdown
So you got someone to boss around
It makes you feel big now
You drift until you brutalize
You made your first kill now

In these days of evil presidentes
Working for the clampdown
But lately one or two has fully paid their due
For working for the clampdown
But ha! Gitalong! Gitalong!

And I've given away no secrets
Who's barmy now?
November 5th, 2004 01:35 PM
Bloozehound Gazza: >I'd agree with residentmule (again) above. Anyone who feels the NEED to be influenced by a celebrity or who who feels brainwashed by it because they cant come up with an idea of their own on who to vote for is a fucking idiot.


I'm in total agreement with that.

My point was I'm sick of the entertainers being used as front line offense like they matter most, on both sides -- right and left. I've had a belly full, and I don't think I'm alone in this.

But I did want to point out a valid difference between Schwarzenegger and Springsteen, since you used them as examples in your post.

The youth vote thing I don't agree with you on, but quite honestly I'm sick of political discussions for now, so I'll let it rest and lets get back to the Stone Stones Stones

peace
November 5th, 2004 01:48 PM
Bloozehound BTW

here's perfect example:

http://www.mtv.com/chooseorlose/headlines/news.jhtml?id=1493383
November 5th, 2004 01:54 PM
The_Worst This is very simple. These guys are artists and people like them because of their talent, not their political views. Do they have the right to come out and say whatever they want? Absolutely!! However, people have the right to "boo" them when they are on stage. As a proud Republican I am very happy that GWB won on Tuesday. Beyond happy. I would love to see the Stones play the inauguration but in some ways I admire them more in that they don't associate themselves with politics one way or the other. Mick's attitude that it's not my country and I shouldn't comment on other country's business is entirely correct. I personally like Tony Blair and want to see him elected. However, I don't follow England's politics close enough to be able to tell the English people what to do...I wish the other side would have done the same and stayed out of American politics. I think much of the world (& a large portion of America) has had their view of George W. Bush severly distorted by the media that it is really a shame. I personally think he will go down as a great president who stuck to his guns when many people wanted to string him up and in the end he will be proven right. You all will see!!!
November 5th, 2004 02:44 PM
Sir Stonesalot >But I did want to point out a valid difference between Schwarzenegger and Springsteen, since you used them as examples in your post.<

Arnold is not a politician. Arnold is an actor playing the part of a politician. Besides, that happened in California...not the real world.

If Bruce ran for Gov. of NJ....he'd win by a mile. But he's smart enough not to run....even though he was born to.

Beat THAT for bad punning!


November 5th, 2004 02:50 PM
jb Michael Moore and the extreme left cost us this election...when are we dem going to learn that values do matter. The only way this party gets back into power is if we find a traditional southern democrat, who supports gay rights, but not gay marriage, as well as votes against partial birth abortion...absent that, we stand no chance....also, we dems must move away from anti-semites like Al Sharpton and unequivocally support the great jewish state and allow Sharon to kill all of the terrorists...Israel musrt also be permitted permission to knock out Iran's nukes as well as French nuclear plants which are supplying Muslim terrorists nuclear material.
[Edited by jb]
November 5th, 2004 02:58 PM
icydanger was going to reply and phone rang.

i think the artists, actors, writers, musicians, photographers, who show their political convictions are convinced enough about their opinions to risk losing half of their customers.

Its much too black and white , RAT/GOP

millions of people in prison, living like animals in cages.


We are lucky here to have colours to chose from, many parties, and we can talk about our choices.

radicalisation resembles fundamentalism and induces terror.
yet money& alliances can buy murder.

sick of it all

November 5th, 2004 02:58 PM
Gazza
quote:
jb wrote:
Michael Moore and the extreme left cost us this election...when are we dem going to learn that values do matter. The only way this party gets back into power is if we find a traditional southern democrat, who supports gay rights, but not gay marriage, as well as votes against partial birth abortion...absent that, we stand no chance....also, we dems must move away from anti-semites like Al Sharpton and unequivocally support the great jewish state and allow Sharon to kill all of the terrorists...Israel musrt also be permitted permission to knock out Iran's nukes as well as French nuclear plants which are supplying Muslim terrorists nuclear material.




I didnt realise Israel (or anyone) was obliged to ask for American approval to defend themselves.

Was there a 51st state added when I wasnt looking?
[Edited by Gazza]
November 5th, 2004 03:02 PM
jb
quote:
Gazza wrote:



I didnt realise Israel (or anyone) was obliged to ask for American approval to defend themselves.

Was there a 51st state added when I wasnt looking?
[Edited by Gazza]

We(the jewish state) saved the world from Saddams nukes in 81...we were attacked unmercifully by the Europeans, especially the French...it turns out we did the world a favor....same thing needs to be done in Iran and North Korea or they will use/sell the nuclear material to terrorists..seems only US, England, and Israel have the willingness to confront this issue...
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