| October 11th, 2005 09:38 PM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
So I have finaly watched No Direction Home and I must say that it is brilliant. It's just great to have that fly on the wall perspective of the early days,and of course,the '66 tour as well. However,what I really enjoyed was the present day interview/narrartion from Zimmy himself.
It occured to me that some of what Dylan was saying might be relevant towards the direction that the Stones have been traveling for the last twenty years or so. Namely Bob had a great take on the difficulty with staying relevant,or true to one's self. He said,and I'm paraphrasing here,that at no time should an artist ever find himself at the end of the journey. An artist should always stay on the path because once you have arrived at the end of the journey it's all but over for your creativity. In other words,always keep moving. Don't ever arrive. Hence the name of the documentary.
I thought that this was genius way of looking at artistic indegrity and development as a songwriter. So what's the point Riffy?
The point is that I think that the Stones have arrived. I think that they arrived a long time ago. Don't get me wrong. I think the boys are still capable of writing great tunes. I truly believe that ABB is one their more inspired records in years,but I can't help but think that the Stones have not really tried to be innovative for years. It's my contention that the last time the Stones really tried to push their artistic abilities was with the title track to Undercover. That tune,while certainly not their best,was an inspired song and an indication that the Stones were still willing to push back. You may think differently on that particular tune,but it would be hard to argue that the Stones are still on the journey that Dylan was refering to.
I think that the Stones have an excuse. They are a group afterall. That is what is amazing about their longevity,but I think it also may be one of the reasons we will never get another Beggers,LIB,SF,or Exile. During that period the Stones were still very much on the journey. Now they are all millionaires hundreds of times over. Mick is very much an "in the moment" kind of guy,and is pushed and pulled in many directions with his film production company etc. Keith seems to be very comfortable with his role as living legend,and number one rock and roll bad boy. Is he still on the journey though? Doubtful. Charlie seems to be ready to follow the band in whatever direction that Mick and Keith seem to ask,but again I think that Charlie has long been willing to go through the motions just out of respect for the Glimmer Twins. Ronnie? Shit,he'll ride this thing as long as it lasts,and why not. He's the luckiest man in rock and roll history!
I'm not trying to slam the Stones here. Everyone knows that I am as big a fan as you're likely to find anywhere. I just thought that Dylan was spot on with his description of the process of creating and staying that way. He went on to say that he was never in the bussiness for the money or fame,and that he just found himself there one day. I would call bullshit on just about anyone that said that in the music bussiness,but Dylan is different. The music bussiness is ego driven,and Bob no doubt has one,but his artistic integrity is beyond reproach. So I believe him. He just walked through the door that had opened up for him because his songs were so topical at the time. Not to mention that he has recently released arguably two of his best records of the last twentyfive years of his carreer.
So the question here is are the Stones ever gonna find themseleves on the journey again? Or have they comfortably found their way home? I know what my answer is,but what do you think?
Riffy |
| October 11th, 2005 10:02 PM |
|
|
| Bloozehound |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
So the question here is are the Stones ever gonna find themseleves on the journey again? Or have they comfortably found their way home? I know what my answer is,but what do you think?
Nope
The gig is up, ABB was all the proof I needed to solidify the fact that these guys as a band could care less about new albums, and really only use them as an excuse to get back on the road
Keith even says he sat around on his butt and hadn't even picked up his guitar for almost a year since the last tour only to play with Willie and at a few other gigs
That doesn't sound much like an artist out pursuing any type of artistic, creative sojourn
Jagger does seem to be the only one with any creative pulse left, but do we really want to hear solo Mick ?
[Edited by Bloozehound] |
| October 11th, 2005 10:24 PM |
|
|
| time is on my side |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
He just walked through the door that had opened up for him because his songs were so topical at the time.
It's my belief Dylan pushed, kept pounding, slammed, broke, dismantled, and shattered down any and every door which was standing in the way of where he wanted to be and where he wanted to be was an artist putting out his own records.
He was very much ego driven which, in many cases, causes someone to search for a higher plane of existence (fame, money, etc) as well as leading others to certain self destructive tendiencies when things don't go there way.
The amount of fame and impact in the music business he eventually achieved was probably way beyond even his wildest dreams. It's my belief that part came about because of his incredible talent and he was in the right place at just about the right TIME. |
| October 11th, 2005 10:47 PM |
|
|
| CraigP |
I beleive that the Stones would not tour if they didn't love it. Their albums haven't been as innovative to the industry lately but they are still looking for something, pertaining to the band. |
| October 11th, 2005 11:01 PM |
|
|
| Bloozehound |
I don't think Dylan's concerts net near the amount of bank that the Stones concerts do, so maybe his albums and their sales are still important to him, as they should be to any active artist 'cept the Stones it would seem |
| October 11th, 2005 11:03 PM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
I hear where you're coming from tioms. Dylan certainly had/has an ego,but his genius is what opened those doors. Certainly more than any door pounding. You are dead right about the right time,and place bit. He just seemed to show up right when society was looking for the spokesman that he never wanted to be.
The point though is that with Dylan he never seemed to really give a shit about what anyone expected of him. Take the Beatles for example. They had been leather wearing punks in Hamburg. Then Brian Epstein got them to wear the little suits and ties. After that they always offered a bow after every song. Likewise the Stones also adopted a look that was polarly opposite of the Beatles so as to appeal to their audience. All of this publicity trickery and media manipulation has been well documented over the years.
Dylan,on the other hand,strapped on an electric guitar in a direct confrontation with his adoring fan base. Nobody who is overly concerned about his own ego would be willing to face boos night after night. Dylan did though. He was on his own kick and if you didn't dig it tough shit,your loss. That is what I think he means by staying on the journey. He had changed,and he was not willing to let the marketplace dictate the direction of that journey. I always respected that about him. This documentary has only reinforced that admiration for me.
Riffy |
| October 12th, 2005 01:07 AM |
|
|
| JumpinJackFlash |
I really like the document as well. That New Port show was great. I'nm on an old Dylan trip right now. The best part was when he was on the hunt to find his idol Woody Guthrie, and the shock of finding him how he was. |
| October 12th, 2005 01:20 AM |
|
|
| stonedinaustralia |
if you haven't yet and are interested i HIGHLY recommend bob's autobiography Chronicles - not just interesting but incredibly well written as well |
| October 12th, 2005 08:59 AM |
|
|
| Lil Brian |
The soundtrack to "No Direction Home" (Bootleg Series Vol. 7) is filled with little nuggets for any Dylan fan too. |
| October 12th, 2005 09:55 AM |
|
|
| pavlovs dog |
It's hard to let go. We all want the Stones to stay 'relevant' and meaningful to today's culture. In this way we feel that we are riding the wave of history and not get submerged by it. The truth is that Time Waits For No One. 100 years from now we'll all be dead and the Rolling Stones we'll be a museum exhibit. There will never be another 1960's. The generation that lived it was (I feel) very lucky to do so. Like the 'Greatest Generation' before them they were part of history and furthermore were aware they were making history. Today we are so fragmented, polarized and subdivided that there is no longer any kind of [italics]zeitgeist [/italics]or dominating paradigm. Yes there are war protesters and neoconservatives and environmentalists but everyone is so busy doing there own thing and preaching to their already converted choir via blogs and message boards that there is very little chance of bringing in new converts. Sheer demographics are rendering us Stones fans irrelevant, we are all being consigned to a cultural cul-de-sac, not becasue A Bigger Bang sucks or not but because the youth of today wat their own music, their own icons and it seesm a little pathetic to try and capture them. It's like a middle aged man trying to seduce a young babe, he might be able to do it some of the time with a lot of money and a lttle luck but he's going to strike out a lot more often than he hits a home run. I'm sure that those British who fought Napoleon or soldiers who fought in the Civil War thought that they had seen the apotheosis of history, that everything would be downhill from there. Same thing with the 'Baby Boomers'. The Kennedy & King assasinations, Civil Rights, Riots, Vietnam, Apollo 11, Rock music, Woodstock, Kent State, Altamont, etc. all make a heady brew and I try to osmose it whenever I can but one day it'll all be gone. I think we need to hold on to the glory,power and beauty of the Stones and celebrate it, wear it out, suck it up. Yes we will never hear music as powerful or meaningful again as Satisfaction, Sympathy For The Devil , Street Fighting Man, Gimme Shelter,etc. So What. We've go that and should be grateful. Be grateful that time keeps us free from the tyranny of history. Percy Bysshe Shelley said it best in a poem:
Ozymandias
I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed,
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
-Percy Bysshe Shelley
1792-1822
|
| October 12th, 2005 10:14 AM |
|
|
| Martha |
Bob is a genius pure and simple. That sets him apart from any of the Stones members first and foremost just in terms of his artistic abilities. The man wrote 100 songs in 9 months?!
Bob doesn't give two shits what people want from him and he never has. Rock star adulation is not what he ever cared about, in fact I suspect he hates it. But I do think he cares very much what people think of his songs.
When I read that during his childhood he didn't like that he had to share his bedroom with his brother that told me everything about what motivates his behavior to shun public attention. Hell, he wouldn't even talk to members of his band from what I've read anyway. Bob's mind is elsewhere. It's on his art; creating and rearranging....he's been doing that since about 4 years of age......I doubt that he can help it. :-)
He covets that part of himself and has kept it alive throughout many changes and years, which I commend him for doing. Bob has steely determination when it comes to his music.
Great comments Riffy. I enjoyed reading your take on Bob and on the Stones in this regard.
I hope to meet you in NY in 2006!
xxxxooo,
Martha
Long Live the Rolling Stones!!!!
|
| October 13th, 2005 12:02 AM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
Yes Martha I agree with your assesment about Bob's genius. There can be no doubt that the man is filled with it. I always find it amuseing that some people say things like,"How great can he be?! He can't sing at all!" That just kills me! LOL! How the hell can you quantify the genius of Dylan by his voice?!?!? For fuck's sake! Listen to his lyrics!
He wrote circles around ALL of his peers. No one,and I mean,no one,could touch him as a writer. Visions of Johanna? Hard Rain? It's Alright Ma...? Tamborine Man? Blowin' In The Wind? Desolation Row? Ballad Of A Thin Man? He wrote all of those songs in his 20's!! That is insane!
Nowadays kids think that shit like Greeday is genius. It boggles the mind how the media driven MTV generation has somehow managed to loose all sense of proportionality when it comes to real talent,or(gasp!)true genius.
I feel that if Dylan were to start his trek into the music bussiness today he never would have made it out of Hibbing,Minnesota. Pathetic,but most likely true I'm afraid.
Riffy |
| October 13th, 2005 12:10 AM |
|
|
| stonedinaustralia |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
I feel that if Dylan were to start his trek into the music bussiness today he never would have made it out of Hibbing,Minnesota. Pathetic,but most likely true I'm afraid.
Riffy
interesting riffy but bob himself has said (see Chronicles as previously recommended)if he was starting out in music today, he wouldn't - he says he'd be more interested in being a mathematician (sp?)!!
i kid you not - tho bob MAY have been kidding
|
| October 13th, 2005 12:20 AM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
quote:
stonedinaustralia wrote:
interesting riffy but bob himself has said (see Chronicles as previously recommended)if he was starting out in music today, he wouldn't - he says he'd be more interested in being a mathematician (sp?)!!
i kid you not - tho bob MAY have been kidding
Yeah I did read it SIA. You're right. A great read for sure. I never expected anything less though. It's nice to "hear" it from Bob's perspective.
I was really trying to point out that someone of Bob's genius would never be embraced in the marketplace these days. It's all about the bottom line and image these days. It makes me sick. When the same company that makes the CDs is also making the CD players to play them on you know there is alot of premium put on "moving product".
I took Bob's comments to mean that he is also sick of it. He knows it has degenerated into a fucking shell game these days and he would want no part of it.
Riffy |
| October 13th, 2005 02:03 AM |
|
|
| Prodigal Son |
If there's another Bob Dylan out there, the sheer talent and innovation would be enough to get a record deal and exposure. Whether or not the artist is a chart presence, etc. is irrelevant. I'd like to be an artistically challenging musician and writer one day myself. My music would be built with integrity and creativity like Bob (my big rock hero), but to make a career and money without touring to death, I'd be a producer, musician and writer on other people's records without lending my name as sole force behind cheap crappy pop music. |
| October 13th, 2005 03:00 AM |
|
|
| stonedinaustralia |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
I was really trying to point out that someone of Bob's genius would never be embraced in the marketplace these days. It's all about the bottom line and image these days. It makes me sick. When the same company that makes the CDs is also making the CD players to play them on you know there is alot of premium put on "moving product".
I took Bob's comments to mean that he is also sick of it. He knows it has degenerated into a fucking shell game these days and he would want no part of it.
Riffy
yes, agreed Riffy - tho having said that and in no way suggesting that they're anywhere near Bob's equal some artists can still slip through the cracks
i'm referring to someone like Beck here - no matter what you might think of his music, for mine he's about as close as you can get these days to an "original mind" whose achieved some measure of (genuinely mainstream)success commercially while still being able to stay true to his own artistic vision - a rare bird indeed these days - however, the breadth of his success and influence and his "vision" is,of course, no where near that of bob's - we shall never see his like again - even then i'd qualify what i said by saying that Beck does play the industry game but he seems, at least, to be doing it on his on terms (but then what do i really know - the truth could be quite a different story but as i said that's how it "seems" to me)
but essentially your correct there is no real place for mavericks in the mainstream of the musical industry these days (especially if they are just starting out)- it's all pretty much safe as milk - even those who would be seen as "outsiders" or those who march to the beat of their own drums are doing so as part of a marketing strategy - "designer revolutionaries" - as you say, it makes you sick (ironically, we can probably thank Andrew Oldham as one of the originators of this approach)
i'm sure there's possibly a hole or two in what i've just written (and i'm sure some of you may take issue with some of what i said) but for the most part i stand by it
soem of the old guard including the stones, bowie, springsteen, iggy pop - can do it on their own terms but then from a commercial point of view they are no longer the commercial giants they once where or in iggy's case never where
thus endeth the rant
"He knows it has degenerated into a fucking shell game these days and he would want no part of it." - yes, i'd say that's about the size of it |
|
