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| stonedinaustralia |
who wrote that?...is it like jp donleavy and "the ginger man"
you from nyc too lonecrapshooter? are you going to a show |
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| lonecrapshooter |
yes i live in Manhattan on turdy turd and turd...no west 8th street and 6th aveNUE...(actually Hell's Kitchen is where I reside)I will be at all three NYC shows (turd row Keith's side tonight through the fan club)as I was in Philly and I am privleged and thankful to see the greatest rock and roll band of all time...my lovely fiancee Shayna will be accompanying to me all three shows (she only got FUC in philly)...We would like to pop in YOTI without an invite if possible
Ignatious is the lovely character in A Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole. Yes same genre as Ginger Man.
From Amazon.com:
"A green hunting cap squeezed the top of the fleshy balloon of a head. The green earflaps, full of large ears and uncut hair and the fine bristles that grew in the ears themselves, stuck out on either side like turn signals indicating two directions at once. Full, pursed lips protruded beneath the bushy black moustache and, at their corners, sank into little folds filled with disapproval and potato chip crumbs."
Meet Ignatius J. Reilly, the hero of John Kennedy Toole's tragicomic tale, A Confederacy of Dunces. This 30-year-old medievalist lives at home with his mother in New Orleans, pens his magnum opus on Big Chief writing pads he keeps hidden under his bed, and relays to anyone who will listen the traumatic experience he once had on a Greyhound Scenicruiser bound for Baton Rouge. ("Speeding along in that bus was like hurtling into the abyss.") But Ignatius's quiet life of tyrannizing his mother and writing his endless comparative history screeches to a halt when he is almost arrested by the overeager Patrolman Mancuso--who mistakes him for a vagrant--and then involved in a car accident with his tipsy mother behind the wheel. One thing leads to another, and before he knows it, Ignatius is out pounding the pavement in search of a job.
Over the next several hundred pages, our hero stumbles from one adventure to the next. His stint as a hotdog vendor is less than successful, and he soon turns his employers at the Levy Pants Company on their heads. Ignatius's path through the working world is populated by marvelous secondary characters: the stripper Lana Lee and her talented cockatoo; the septuagenarian secretary Miss Trixie, whose desperate attempts to retire are constantly, comically thwarted; gay blade Dorian Greene; sinister Miss Lee, proprietor of the Night of Joy nightclub; and Myrna Minkoff, the girl Ignatius loves to hate. The many subplots that weave through A Confederacy of Dunces are as complicated as anything you'll find in a Dickens novel, and just as beautifully tied together in the end. But it is Ignatius--selfish, domineering, and deluded, tragic and comic and larger than life--who carries the story. He is a modern-day Quixote beset by giants of the modern age. His fragility cracks the shell of comic bluster, revealing a deep streak of melancholy beneath the antic humor. John Kennedy Toole committed suicide in 1969 and never saw the publication of his novel. Ignatius Reilly is what he left behind, a fitting memorial to a talented and tormented life. --Alix Wilber
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| stonedinaustralia |
thanx lonecrapshooter - i'll try to check that one out
enjoy the shows as i'm sure you will |
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| gotdablouse |
So Maxy, what't the lowdown on Ronnie?
I hear Before They Make Me Run was a total disaster :-( |
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| TheSavageYoungXyzzy |
quote:
gotdablouse wrote:
So Maxy, what't the lowdown on Ronnie?
I hear Before They Make Me Run was a total disaster :-(
I hear it's been a disaster every time they've played it this tour... so what? One song out of twenty-two? I thought "Happy" and "Loving Cup" were both busts at the Fleet.
But that didn't stop the rockin'!
-tSYX --- Purple haze, all in my eyes! |
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| lonecrapshooter |
after introducing Ronnie to thunderous applause Mick said" "It's all going to go to his head" now why would he say that??????????????? cause Ronnie is playing DAMN GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| gotdablouse |
Mick has always been knownn to make fun of Ronnie, on stage or elsewhere.
So Maxy what's the deal ? |
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| Maxlugar |
Maxy went a little overboard with the Wacky Water last night.
My insighfull and thought provoking Ronnie review was lost in a warm, steaming golden flush down dome MSG urinal.
Too bad.
I can say that CYHMK was fantastic Ronnie.
But I don't think there was any other outstanding lead played all night.
I could be wrong.
Maxy! Ouch, that was too loud....shhhhhh.... |
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| Nasty Habits |
quote:
stonedinaustralia wrote:
thanx lonecrapshooter - i'll try to check that one out
enjoy the shows as i'm sure you will
I second your need to read Confederacy of Dunces, stonedinaustralia-y, you will laugh and laugh! I still remember this scene where this girl does this strip tease dance with a bird that had me laughing so hard in a restaurant people were looking at me like I was mad.
And lo, the waitress did descend upon me and I spoke unto her much like Ignatius, ordering in the fullest flower English had to offer me!
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| Nasty Habits |
quote:
gotdablouse wrote:
So Maxy, what't the lowdown on Ronnie?
I hear Before They Make Me Run was a total disaster :-(
Before they Make Me Run was a TOTAL disaster at the Vet in Philly, that's for sure, but it was made up for by its complete, staggering, unbelievable awesomeness at the Tower, which made up for the VET and made me believe in Keith once again. |
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| gotdablouse |
Thanks Maxy, in spite of your excesses you're probably more clear headed than the usual combo of "Keith and Ronnie can do now wrong in fact they're so cool that the mistakes they make are wonderful"...
Leads not great apart from CYHMK, ok, he did play leads on B2B too, he didn't play anything else though, is he playing anything more this time ? |
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| lonecrapshooter |
gotdablose: uh Mick wasn't making fun of him here...that was a backhanded compliment...I'm convinced you'll never get it...sad sad sad |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Look man, if you want perfect music listen to a different band. I have hundreds of Stones shows, and NONE of them, not even Brussels Affair, is mistake free. Not only that, but there is at least one muff or bobble in just about every song the Stones have ever played live.
IT DOES NOT MATTER.
The #1 reason that the Rolling Stones are such a fantastic live band is because they play on the ragged edge of total collapse. THAT is what makes them so exciting. And IMO, that is the only way to get close to playing true rock and roll music. I don't want to hear "Midnight Rambler" played exactly like it is on the album. I want them to take it as far as they can. Even if they DO actually fuck up, like on Before They Make Me Run from MSG....it doesn't really matter. They troopered on, and it turned out OK. It makes them HUMAN. They are not machines. Humans fuck up occasionally. But humans also have EMOTION. And playing like a human also allows you to play with emotion.
Didn't we have this conversation before? Were you the guy who was trying to convince me how great a singer Freddy Mercury was?
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| Nellcote |
Goddamn SS, you are dead on with your take on this matter.
I've been preaching this since my first ever concert, 7/19/72, the Stones at the Boston Gahden.
Anyone in their right mind looks for the differences.
That is the absolute rush of the Stones, how they can
spin the magic.
The version of "Neighbors" which we caught at the Fleet
is radical compared to Still Life, as one example.
I'm listening to "Go Go" from the Orpheum as a type this,
it is balls beyond the early 80's version.
The bring on the human factor!
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| gotdablouse |
I think you guys are getting a bit emotional about this. I obvisouly don't mind the "slovenly" style of The Stones since I have spent thousands of hours listening to their music, collecting their recordings and reading their interviews over the past 20+ years. I absolutely LOVE this band and their music, ok ?!
Oh and my favorites Stones moment ever is when they played Midnight Rambler on the B-Stage In 99 in San Jose and that had all the markings of the Stones' slovenly style and amazing balance of early/late timing and just wicked rythm. A pure marvel and that's why the Stones are what they are, not because of missed cues as we are now being told...
Now being slovenly is one thing, fucking up cues like they did on Start Me Up at the MTV (VH1?) awards in 94 or during Street Fighting Man on a '94 video is a veryu different mater. This time around this seems to happen each night and for Ronnie in particular missing a lot of cues and giving the impression he's just woken up from a bad dream. Listen to the boots (IORR with Bono, Hand of Fate Aragon) would hardly qualify him for the MASSIVE "wishful thinking" rebirth some have been promoting on this board.
I for one would have been only too happy to believe he was back to his '75 level of "slovenly" playing. Frankly I had my doubts, after objectively listening to the boots, and now being told that missing cues is part of the Stones' greatness, little doubt is left that sadly enough this is the usual "wishful thinking" we get each time around.
So Maxy - you're my last hope ! |
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| lonecrapshooter |
gotdablouse - you say you love the Stones and have enjoyed many shows.so what the heck makes you think you won't love these shows?...you are implicitly discrediting many serious fans by saying you have a different opinion based on tapes...you have seen 0 shows...please stop bringing us down...you keep mentioning reports and tapes that are not favorable in your judegement but what about all of the great great reviews by serious fans who have seen many many shows and many many tours? There were nowhere near as many great reviews from BTB..yes MSG was great...I was there..but these guys are playing great in each city...and different songs too...it's a new decade and a new tour...you can not compare to the past...No tape is going to capture what you see hear and feel in person...If I had seen no shows I wouldn't have the audacity to criticize their playing to fans who have been to the shows...you are not qualified to make these posts as you have not seen one show..stop insulting us and stop pissing on the Stones parade |
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| gotdablouse |
"stop pissing on the Stones parade" that sums it all up, you and some others don't accept constructive criticism of the Stones. Just like in the army, "thinking is disobeying" tout after tour it's always the same crap. I love them but don't love them "blindly"
And just like I thought, this is getting very emotional and you sound totally paranoid. Where exactly did I insult you ?! By explaining the difference I see between "slovenly" and "off cue" ?
Again the only point of this thread was to get OBJECTIVE feedback on Ronnie's performance since a lot of people are ecstatic about his playing and it doesn't SEEM to be the case from OBJECTIVE listening of the tapes. I have VERY good recollections of '97 "reviews" that said exactly the same thing, including one of the 3rd night in Oakland where I was myself and where Ronnie had been very bad. Well this guy (and he wasn't alone) thought Ronnie had been great in spite of many other "objective" opinions to the contrary.
Anyway I'll stop "insulting" you and will report back in November after I see them. As I feared, most people here aren't interested in being level headed. Fine with me.
Maxy - any final word on what you saw ?
[Edited by gotdablouse] |
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| stonedinaustralia |
quote:
gotdablouse wrote:
...the only point of this thread was to get OBJECTIVE feedback on Ronnie's performance since a lot of people are ecstatic about his playing and it doesn't SEEM to be the case from OBJECTIVE listening of the tapes.
but how are you going to do that man?
anyone who tells you what they thought of ronnie's (or anyone's)playing will be giving you their SUBJECTIVE opinion (including whatever it is you tell yourself)
that is unless you are going to try to establish some "test" by which to measure his playing as if it was some scientific phenomenon that can be quantitively measured
even then the selection of any criteria to establish the "test" would again be a SUBJECTIVE decision
i just can't see how you can do it |
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| TheSavageYoungXyzzy |
gotdablouse...
It seems to me that what you're doing is saying that "anyone who disagrees with me is simply blindly loving the band and I can discount their opinion". Are we telling you "Well, you must hate the band no matter what they do" and ignoring your opinion?
How can you get an objective opinion? Everyone has bias. The only way you can form an opinion is to go and see them.
And you can listen to audience recordings all ya want - I have come to the conclusion that it's nothing like being there. As for me, I'm very critical of all of them - I thought "Happy" at the Fleet was a fiasco, a flatline version that was boring because it didn't have that edge.
Bill Wyman hit it right on the head when he noted that the Stones follow the guitars rather than the drums - that's what gives them that 'on the edge' feeling. And if you follow the guitar, of course there are gonna be nights when you go over the edge and miss cues and so forth. I thought Ronnie's playing on "If You Can't Rock Me" at the Fleet was a bit of a flatline job, too, but he sure as hell woke up the crowd on "Rocks Off" - a group of guys from either BC or BU were sitting behind me, and they'd been sitting since "Street Fighting Man", and it just lifted them outta their seats.
So no, I don't 'blindly subscribe' to the philosophy that "Ronnie and Keith can do no wrong" - in fact, I think maybe 10% of the people you've said that to might. I understand that you're trying not to get your hopes up, trying to keep an objective view - in that case, don't read reviews! Don't read setlists! And most importantly (because I've done this before) when you go, don't go in there looking for the things you know you're going to hate! If you do, of course you're gonna find them and you'll come out all spitting angry when the show was actually excellent and you spent too much effort looking for the small mistakes.
-tSYX --- You may find it funny.... |
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| lonecrapshooter |
"you and some others don't accept constructive criticism of the Stones" this is an out and out lie...I have given plenty of constructive criticism so I can sure as hell take it...you are insulting me by saying I am not objective...guess what? Satisfaction and Angie sounded like shit to ME (IMObjectiveO) last night�is that constructive enough for you???
I never said YOU were not objective now did I? I said you have a right to your opinion (and I said your points are valid � do you recall this?) and if the tapes don�t sound good to you fine � that�s your opinion but don�t say I am not objective because I thought Ronnie was hot...you know what, I have seen 5 shows now and Ronnie has been hot every night (Happy was the best song of last night IMO he tore it up on the steel just like LIV was the hottest at the Vet,)...not on every song, but I always left saying to myself �Wow I never heard Ronnie like that on BTB!�...and many other hard-core fans say the same to me after the shows...and you have the balls - the fucking balls to say we are not objective because we are raving about Ronnie!
�a lot of people are ecstatic about his playing and it doesn't SEEM to be the case from OBJECTIVE listening of the tapes� � this is the most outlandish and obnoxious statement I have read from a so-called hard-core fan�you are saying that our opinions after seeing them live are inferior to your listening to some tapes? Highly inflammatory stuff man! I know fans who constantly criticized Ronnie on BTB and now are enjoying him�how can you be more objective?
You�ve already stated that you don�t like the way Ronnie sounds? WE ACCEPT YOUR OPINION DUDE�but respect ours too�don�t say were not objective and if you think an individual poster is not objective then address that person directly rather than stereotype all of us
�Maxy - any final word on what you saw ? �
is Maxy the only freakin person you'll listen to? He already said he was too wasted to recall much so why the f do you keep asking him?... Ronnie is getting huge applause which has not gone unnoticed by Mick � (is Mick objective?) and everybody except you knows he's hot...
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| Maxlugar |
Honestly, out of MSG and GS, I didn't really think Ronnie was that much different than the last few tours.
EXCEPT!!!
CYHMK!!!
Holy shit did he play the fuck out of that.
I was majorly impressed.
He can still play, no doubt.
But he didn't show it that much on anything else.
That is my honest opinion. In a few months we'll be able to hear all of the bootlegs anyway. Then we'll be able to compare with last tours. |
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| Moonisup |
man listen to Hand of fate from ARAGON
you'll hear ronnie is back |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
gotdab...I think you are misunderstanding me...I freely acknowledge that Ronnie and Keef fuck up. I also acknowledge that they have played some real stinker guitar lines. I have heard some leads that just flat out don't work....
But it just isn't that important to me that they hit all the cues, or hit all the right notes. I've never been a fan of technique. Obviously you are. Fine. There's lots of people out there that like that kind of thing. I'm just not one of them.
I think I feel like this about music because I grew up in the Punk School. And I probably apply the punk ethos to everything. But what is wrong with that? I've seen 3 shows now, I thought Ronnie played well at all 3 shows, and at times played at an unbelievable level. That is my honest opinion. Take it or leave it.
I'm no syncophant. If I think something sucks, I'll tell you it sucks. Ronnie don't suck my man. He's playing way better that he has in years....'75 good? Naw. NONE of them are playing that good. Not even Charlie. But they sound better than anytime since '89. That ain't bad is it? |
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| lonecrapshooter |
NOBODY has a comment on Ronnie's playing on Happy at Giants Stadium????? Can't believe this! That was a major highlight of the show for me. |
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| gotdablouse |
ok guys, I thought we had finally gotten somewhere with more argumented posts, (thanks for taking the time SirStones ans tSYX guys)until these posts:
1) Maxy - "Honestly, out of MSG and GS, I didn't really think Ronnie was that much different than the last few tours, except for CYMK"
2) Moonisup - "man listen to Hand of fate from ARAGON you'll hear ronnie is back"
3) lonecrap - "NOBODY has a comment on Ronnie's playing on Happy at Giants Stadium????? Can't believe this! That was a major highlight of the show for me"
My comments:
1) That's pretty much where I stood from listening to the tapes. Definitely with expectations built up by those who thought Ronnie was "dead" in 97 and is now reborn.
2) This very recording is the main reason I began doubting the ecstatic reporst. Ronnie's (and Keith's) playing is disaster on that song. Listen to the solo and the bridge, absolute pain to listen to.
3) no
What can you say?
So here you have it, people like Maxy or me who will just take Ronnie for what he is, a decent guitar player (for those who don't know, he was happy to switch to bass in the Jeff Beck Group because he was concerned his playing was not up to par), very good lap steel player, and who "oils" the Keith/Mick relationship and ackowledge the great job on CYHMK, and then people like tSYX wo call him a "Guitar God" and lonecrap who keeps singling out his playing as highlights of the 2002 shows.
To each his own of course, but honestly drumming up and singling out Ronnie's 'fabulous performances" on the 2002 tour reminds me a lot of the pointless "wishful thinking" that's always surrounded Ronnie's contributions to the band ever since he joined, be it in '82, '94 or '97. |
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| Nasty Habits |
Gotdablouse --
I have avoided getting involved in this thread but what the hell - it's plenty interesting and I have a few things to say. I know where you're coming from -- no doubt there has been "wishful thinking" about Ronnie and the Stones in the past -- I stopped reading fan commentary for a few years after attending what I thought was a very lackluster show in '99 in Charlotte because I assumed people had no genuine objectivity. I think that if there is any criticism that can be laid at the feet of the current Stones tour it is that there is a lack of consistant flash guitar by either slinger - none of Keith's solos per se completely exploded at any of the shows that I saw in Philadelphia and Ronnie's lead spotlights were very limited - other than that it's rhythm rhythm rhythm. Which occasionally did explode gloriously and reach righteous levels of intensity - I'm thinking about the rave ups at the stadium ("Gimme Shelter" going on forever and "Street Fighting Man"'s endless coda) and the jaw dropping "Before they make me run" at the Tower, which was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.
To my ears, and I was listening very carefully, there were a number of outstanding highlights from Ronnie's git at Philly -- a truly lovely first solo in "Love in Vain" at the FUC, a brilliant first solo on "Hand of Fate" (my fave Ronnie lead of the week) and stellar slide on "You Got Me Rockin'" at the Tower, very tasteful playing on "No Expectations", a nice weave on the FUC "Miss You", and exciting playing on FUC "Don't Stop", plus the wild improvs on the Taylor CYHMK solo.
When Mick hollered at Ronnie to take a solo to extend a vamp, Ronnie would lock into it - "Beast of Burden" and "Miss You" on the small stage both had Mick turning to Ronnie for an impromptu lead.
Is Ronnie spraying all the songs with inspired lead works and jabbering little runs? No, he is not. But what you're really not getting from your "objective listening to tapes" is that these are live experiences and when you're witnessing the band live, other factors come into play. Boots are not primary - they are strictly secondary experience. When you're watching the concert, it's all about a build of excitement and energy - the Stones seem to be concentrating on making sure the audience gets off harder than I've seen them do in a long long time, which means build the rhythm, build the excitement, build the tension, then release it. If Ronnie pulls off a thrilling solo in the first half of a song, that carries the number through to the end, and he's done his job building the excitement or supplying a release. You're also missing the visual element listening to tapes. Ronnie seems very present and excited to be at the shows, and his bouncing energy seems directed and concentrated, rather than drunk and disjointed. His mad hopping at the Tower and the Stadium were exciting like Chuck Berry's duckwalking - you gonna complain about the way Chuck Berry wrings noise out of his axe while he's down hopping across the stage?
I agree with Sir Stones -- the band is playing more excitingly than they have since '89. I do not think Keith is playing as well as he was in '89, but I loved the way he played on that tour, with his feedback bends and flamencoisms. Ronnie's playing, on occasion, has taken on a soaring melodic strain that is unprecedented in his Stones playing. I can objectively state that I had more fun at the three shows I saw in Philly than I have had at any previous Rolling Stones shows I've attended, be that because of the band or where I'm at in my life or my relationship to the Stones or what hev ya.
Will an objective listen to boots from these shows show glaring errors in the highlights I've cited above? No doubt that it might. But bootlegs aren't the same as attending a concert, and I'm hoping they won't tarnish your experience when you finally get to see the current incarnation of the band for real.
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| SirMuddy |
Don't what anyvody say.... I just finish to listen to Orpheum Show.... Absolutely terrific... The Stones are back! Nothing else matter  |
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| sirmoonie |
"So here you have it, people like Maxy or me who will just take Ronnie for what he is......and then people like tSYX wo call him a "Guitar God" and lonecrap who keeps singling out his playing as highlights of the 2002 shows."
Just those two types of people? Thats it?
What a bunch of fucking bullshit. Its so obvious now that you posted what you believed to be a rhetorical question, and when the one guy you knew wouldn't be impressed with Ronnie said as much, you came up with that dumb-ass-for-the-ages-comment. Be careful dude, you're verging into SDH hero worship territory.
Don't even bother seeing those shows you're going to. You'll hate them. Ronnie will let you down. Trust me.
FYI - I think Ronnie was great tonight. Once again. And strangely, it wasn't JUST on CYHMK...... |
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| VoodooChileInWOnderl |
Well, I just read this thread title and I have not had time to read the 57 replies plus the original message, but I'm a proud witness of two of his performances live, not from bootlegs or videos or articles.
Let me tell you something, I watched Woody the whole show and he rocked, he kicked holy ass! He is better than ever |
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| lonecrapshooter |
gotdablouse: STILL A FOOL - NOT A FAN
"lonecrap who keeps singling out his playing as highlights of the 2002 shows."
Yes I singled out Ronnie on LIV from Philly which will go down as one the best performances of the tour. Sorry you missed it. And by the way you are the master of DEconstructive criticism.
I've done 6 shows in NY and Philly. You?
lonecrapshooter: 6
gotdablouse: 0 but a lot of lip
now go run to Max for support
oh and DJ is also playing DAMN GREAT |
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