| September 1st, 2005 08:24 PM |
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| LadyJane |
Someone please tell me how a country with our monetary and military resources can allow it's citizens to suffer and die in this manner?
I am outraged at my Government right now and the buck stops in the Oval Office (when he's there) squarely at the feet of George W. Bush.
We need leadership.
We need thinking "outside of the box".
Why are we not airlifting supplies to this region??
Where is the almighty United States Armed Services???
Instead of hand ringing, calls for patience, and photo ops, WE NEED ACTION.
People are stranded on rooftops for days and all we can tell them is to be patient!!!!!!!!!!!!
It does not matter from which side of the political aisle you hail.
ALL of us...ALL of us should be demanding that our leaders step up to the plate and get some help into the Gulf region...NOW!!!!!!!!!
LJ.
[Edited by LadyJane] |
| September 1st, 2005 08:52 PM |
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| mac_daddy |
quote:
Why are we not airlifting supplies to this region??
Where is the almighty United States Armed Services???
you see - THIS is the major f*cking problem. they are in iraq b/c george jr sent them there...
and so are the armed nat'l guard reserves, which means there is nobody around domestically to keep the peace down there. it is really f*cking ugly - they were shooting at an ambulance 'copter this morning, and by now i know you have seen the looting scenes on television... i sure hope ss knows how to handle a handgun, and takes one with him (a glock, or something similar, that is reliable when wet), becasue it is literal chaos down there. |
| September 1st, 2005 09:42 PM |
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| Jumping Jack |
Rudy provided leadership in NY. Where are the politicians in LA and what party do they belong to?
Sadly, they are so used to whining they cannot step up and lead when circumstances require it. The politicians in LA & NO ignored the levee hazard for 30 years. Put the blame where it belongs. |
| September 1st, 2005 10:49 PM |
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| glencar |
MacDaddy, I don't want to get into politics at this point. I think the Feds have been much, much slower than required but I'm amazed that so many people remained in the city. Remember, we knew at least 3 days before that it was headed that way & at that point "Level 5" was the estimate. Yet the local authorities didn't outflow the traffic fast enough & at least 1/5 of the urban NO population remained at home. WTF???
I read that the governor of LA was crying on TV yesterday. Again, WTF??? Tears are good in private but let's see action, honey! I think some carping about FEMA is fine but why not let the work get done before assessing blame? I recall after 9/11 that libs were also blaming the President. As for the vacation stuff, when I take a vacation, it's a vacation. I doubt it is for him.
And someone tell those assholes down there to stop shooting! |
| September 1st, 2005 11:02 PM |
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| Bloozehound |
quote:
glencar wrote:
And someone tell those assholes down there to stop shooting!
shee-at, that part ain't much different any other night in louisiana |
| September 1st, 2005 11:08 PM |
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| sirmoonie |
You would actually be better off living in Banda Aceh after the 2005 tsumami, than living in the southern United States of Lousiana and Mississippi after hurricane Katrina.
Thats fucked up, and heads should roll.
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| September 1st, 2005 11:14 PM |
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| mac_daddy |
quote:
glencar wrote:
MacDaddy, I don't want to get into politics at this point. I think the Feds have been much, much slower than required but I'm amazed that so many people remained in the city. Remember, we knew at least 3 days before that it was headed that way & at that point "Level 5" was the estimate. Yet the local authorities didn't outflow the traffic fast enough & at least 1/5 of the urban NO population remained at home. WTF???
I read that the governor of LA was crying on TV yesterday. Again, WTF??? Tears are good in private but let's see action, honey! I think some carping about FEMA is fine but why not let the work get done before assessing blame? I recall after 9/11 that libs were also blaming the President. As for the vacation stuff, when I take a vacation, it's a vacation. I doubt it is for him.
And someone tell those assholes down there to stop shooting!
agreed.
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:
You would actually be better off living in Banda Aceh after the 2005 tsumami, than living in the southern United States of Lousiana and Mississippi after hurricane Katrina.
Thats fucked up, and heads should roll.
quoted for truth.
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| September 1st, 2005 11:20 PM |
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| Riffhard |
I will say this. The feds have some very serious explaining to do. It is abosutly the biggest goddamned clusterfuck that this nation has ever seen. I would hate to be in any position of authority right about now because it's like goddamned Somolia down there right now,but flooded with bodies floating down Bourbon Street!! What the fuck was Hastert thinking by saying that New Orleans is not worth rebuilding?!?!? WTF was this guy thinking? Also why the fuck has Congress not declared marshall law down there?!? These criminals should be shot on sight if for no other reason than to facilitate the rescue attempts! A major fuckup of insane proportions,and I must say that Bush and Co. had better get their heads out of their asses ASAP! This is a black mark on all of us.
Riffhard |
| September 1st, 2005 11:30 PM |
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| sirmoonie |
My friend Bloozie, that is out of line and you know it. |
| September 1st, 2005 11:44 PM |
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| Bloozehound |
its gone
you guys arent being affected the way we are, and I think you guys armchair quarterbacking sucks
i'm cool
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| September 1st, 2005 11:55 PM |
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| Riffhard |
Bro I'm not armchair quarterbacking at all. I said right up front that I would hate to be in a position of power right now. You gotta admit though this thing is really fubar. It's complete anarchy down there. Lots of people scream for anarchy,but when it bites them in the ass like it is New Orleans right now,the romance of it goes right out the fucking window! Good on ya for removing the post Bloozy. I do agree that the criominals should be shot on sight regardless of their color. They are fucking everything up. If it looked as if it could not get any worse these assholes have managed to make it so. Pathetic. Marshall Law should go into effect right now,and I'd be willing to bet that it will within the next 24-48 hours. It's completely out of control.
Riffhard |
| September 2nd, 2005 12:07 AM |
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| Angiegirl |
Dutch newspaper asks readers their thoughts about the fact that no aid actions are initiated yet in Holland, while there were on large scale after Asia Dec 2004:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/ (bottom of page)
Waar blijft onze hulp aan New Orleans?
Katrina heeft dood en verwoesting gezaaid in het gebied rond en in New Orleans. De stad dreigt helemaal onder water te lopen. Bij de tsunami kwamen we massaal in actie, wat doen we nu? Mail uw reactie naar [email protected]
translation:
Where is our help for New Orleans?
Katrina has caused death and destruction in the area around and in New Orleans. The city faces total flooding. We initiated financial aid on a massive scale in our country at the time of the tsunami, but what are we doing now? Mail your reaction to [email protected]
[Edited by Angiegirl] |
| September 2nd, 2005 12:23 AM |
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| glencar |
Riffy, I heard on Fox that only Congress can declare martial law. What are the chances Denny Hastert will lead the way? Don't bet the House. |
| September 2nd, 2005 12:28 AM |
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| stonedinaustralia |
well speaking as an outsider i am amazed by many things:
the enormity of the disaster itself - one of the world's great cities reduced to some kind of post apocalypse nightmare
the failure of people - citizens and authorities - to properly appreciate what was coming and to act accordingly and thus keep the inevitable loss and damage to a minimum
what appears to be a very slow response in providing what is required to deal with the aftermath (particularly given the resources of the US)
i'm certainly not going to throw in my, essentially uninformed, views as to who is to "blame" for the last two but i would hazard a guess (based on the fact that the US is governed much like Australia with a three tiered - local/state/federal system) that there is no end of buck passing/ blame shifting and general lack of communication going on between the different levels of government (for essentially "political" reasons) coupled with or resulting in a lack of co-ordination of resources in turn resulting in much wastage/duplication of the same
no doubt, someone has to grab the reins and take charge of the situation from the top and get things organized
i know it is somewhat gratuitous to say so but it really is a scene as mind-boggling as 9/11 because (unlike the tsunami situation) this is happening in the most developed nation on earth yet the response *seems* to be no more organized/ effective than if it had occurred in a third world country
apologies if i appear to be speaking out of line but i am of course relying on what our media shows us and as you would appreciate, while it is certainly big news here, it is not the central focus of our lives and the media as is its habit will sensationlize (if not completely ignore) the facts for the sake of a "good" story
[Edited by stonedinaustralia] |
| September 2nd, 2005 12:35 AM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
The response seems slow, but I don't think it really is. Here's some things to think about.
It's more than just NO that's affected. Biloxi, Gulfport, Slidell, have been ravaged every bit as hard as NO. These are good sized cities. If we were just having to deal with NO, the response would have been much more rapid. It's a matter of priority. You save the people that you can get to. Prioritizing human lives is a shitty business. You will always piss people off, no matter what. But it is something that must be done in situations like this. It is one of the uncomfortable realities of my line of work.
The sheer number of displaced people is....almost unreal. We are talking about HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people. Even under the BEST of conditions, with months of advance planning, the task of rescue/evac is monumental. Under the current conditions, communications out, no power, infrastructure destroyed, vast areas flooded, idiots shooting at you....the situation becomes nearly impossible.
Someone said something about massive airlifts. My question is...to where? Most of the regional airports are not usable. The power and radar is out. Runways littered with debris. NO Intl is open for use in the relief effort. The problem is that once you fly stuff in....you got to get it to where it's gonna do some good. Easier said than done! There are about 25,000 people at the NO Conv Ctr. If we were to fly just one bottle of water for each person in there by helicopter...it would take an entire day for our entire fleet of helicopters to do! That would mean suspending all other rescue/evac operations....for a single bottle of water. And then you have to distribute that bottle of water without creating a riot! You simply can't do it. And those people have to have someplace to go once they are evacuated. There's no place to do that in the immediate vicinity. You have to find someplace to move those people to. How many Astrodomes do you think there are? You can't just dump people out in a field somewhere. Look, this is going to affect the entire country. We will be sending refugees in all directions for hundreds of miles. Preparations for those refugees have to be made. You can't simply drive them to Little Rock or Memphis or Atlanta and tell them to get out. Uh oh...the Astrodome is full. That's bad.
It's obvious that the disaster plan was....uh....shortsighted. A bit. I've helped to develope some disaster plans. You sit around drinking coffee, trying to come up with the worst possible scenario that you can come up with. Then you plan for what you need to deal with that. Anyone think that you could have dreamed something like this up? This is far far worse than anyone could have imagined. And I'll tell you, if someone had dreamed this up, and then come up with a plan to deal with it...it would have been laughed at, and you would have been told to come up with something reasonable...and affordable. And that is the truth.
The other factor to remember is that people were being told to evacuate THREE DAYS in advance. It was a "manditory" evacuation. Now that doesn't really mean shit. No one can actually FORCE you to leave. But it tells a reasonable person to get the fuck out if you know what's good for you. Many of these people placed themselves in a very bad position, and they have no one to blame but themselves. There are obvious problems with this though. We tell you to get out, but we provide no means for you to actually do so. If you don't have a car, or someplace to go, or the money to catch a plane, train, or bus....well...you are fucked. But the strange thing is that the highways out of the area over the weekend were not jammed. It seems that a lot of people decided that they didn't really need to go. Well, they fucked up. Big time.
So could the response be better....yeah, it can always be better. Could we do more...probably, there is always something more to be done. And I can guarantee you, the people on the ground trying to help, they want to do more. But there is a finite number of people you can help in a day...in a week. There are simply more people that need help in the Gulf Coast that it is possible to help right now. It is sad, horrific, and gutwrenching. But that is the way it is. It is a hard fact to swallow, but I don't know how much more you can expect the people on the ground to do.
My heart goes out to all of 'em. I'm expecting my chance to go and help will be coming shortly. |
| September 2nd, 2005 12:49 AM |
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| stonedinaustralia |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
The sheer number of displaced people is....almost unreal. We are talking about HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people. Even under the BEST of conditions, with months of advance planning, the task of rescue/evac is monumental. Under the current conditions, communications out, no power, infrastructure destroyed, vast areas flooded, idiots shooting at you....the situation becomes nearly impossible.
and is nearly impossible to imagine now much less foresee
good post and thanks SS - i've probably learned more about what is really going on now or went on beforehand from it than from all the "highlights" my various news services have provided
and as you say it will effect the entire country, which means it will, in some way, also have an effect on mine |
| September 2nd, 2005 01:09 AM |
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| Bloozehound |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
My heart goes out to all of 'em. I'm expecting my chance to go and help will be coming shortly.
if you go you'll earn your stripes in my book man
swing over to austin and dinner and clubs on me |
| September 2nd, 2005 01:13 AM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
>which means it will, in some way, also have an effect on mine<
Yeah, especially if our economy goes to shit.
If you or anyone has any questions...technical type questions...regarding the relief effort, go ahead and ask. I may have answers for you, or I might be able to get you answers.
Check this out. I just got a call from my boss. Yeah, when I heard his voice I thought it was "THE" call. But it wasn't. Wait till you hear THIS....he said that when he turned in our volunteer list to the Feds, he was told that we probably wouldn't be needed. Can you believe that? How could we not be needed? Are they not watching the news? OF COURSE we are needed! Holy FUCK!
But now that I'm thinking about it...this probably means that we are definately going. Sooner than later. You know how it is when you are dealing with government types. Buncha fuckwits. Honestly, I can't believe that things are going as well as they are. |
| September 2nd, 2005 01:31 AM |
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| pdog |
I just spent an hour reading this entire thread.
I avoided it all day, I'm glad I did. I might have said something anti-Bush or made a stupid joke.
I really Am just grateful. I talked to my son about this today, he's 4 years old. So it's a long talk with alot of questions, the same ones again and again. I did tell him we were very lucky to have food, water and a home tonight. Many don't. I told him Mommy and Daddy were sending money to the brave people who were working so hard to help all the victims there. Then we prayed.
If anything like this ever happens in SF, from a big quake, I'd be in the same situations as these folks... It's scarey, in a blink of an eye, everything you believe in can be gone!
You guys all rock, especially SS... I hope to see you in NYC. If we don't at least know we'll all be raising a glass to you.
Salt Of The Earth is coming to mind right now.
P.S. Riffy, I never knew about that part of Jersey... Made me want to move back home!
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| September 2nd, 2005 02:29 AM |
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| Poplar |
I agree SS ... awful hard to help a half million people when there are hardly roads to reach them all.
one place i think we can fairly place blame: the mayor has totally failed. before the storm even hit, that loser was on TV ringing his hands, saying he "checked with the city attorneys before ordering an evacuation." good grief, the time it took to do that cost how many lives?
from what i heard tonight, however, the security situation is more under control... but the images of that suffering makes you weep for those people.
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| September 2nd, 2005 02:52 AM |
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| The_Worst |
There is no doubt there have been huge mistakes made by EVERYONE. If people want to blame this on our republican president than twice as much blame should be placed on the democratic mayor of New Orleans & the democratic governor of Louisiana. THEY ARE THE ONES CLOSEST TO THE SITUATION!!!
Personally, I think it flat out sucks that anyone is being blamed at this point...This situation is completely out of control but blaming anyone is pointless right now.
The Iraq argument made by some is the biggest bunch of bullshit I have heard. The reason help has not gotten to the people in New Orleans is not because the National Guard was in Iraq it's because THE FUCKING CITY WAS DESTROYED!!!
I don't know how many of you have been to New Orleans but this was a disaster centuries in the making. It doesn't take a genious to figure out that a city surrounded by water on all sides that is under sea level would be in serious trouble if a major storm hit. If you ever visited New Orleans & took a tour the tour guide would tell you that!!! Every major road but one in town has been completely destroyed.
I agree that martial law should be imposed (& only the US congress can impose it in this case because Lousiana state law doesn't have a martial law provision. The order should be given if any thug has a gun in his hand "Shoot to kill". That is the ONLY way you get these bastards to drop their guns.
The bottom line in all this is yes the situation is unacceptable & completely out of control...However, lets drop this fucking blame game business for now & concentrate on saving whatever lives & whatever is left of the city that we can!!!! |
| September 2nd, 2005 04:41 AM |
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| Poplar |
good post Worst.
having been through a few natural disasters in the US (of varrying types) one thing is non-negotiable: the first 48 hours depend on local leadership (see: 9/11, Loma Prieta, etc.) Day 3, maybe 4 or 5 is when the fed cavalry usually arrives.
but yes, blame is senseless. it was gonna happen there sooner or later. Looking at the pictures (and the wide area they cover, 100+ miles) it's hard to imagine this storm NOT being disasterous. Worst of our lifetimes.
[Edited by Poplar] |
| September 2nd, 2005 06:42 AM |
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| Jumping Jack |
pdog,
It isn't IF a major quake hits in CA, it is when. An 8.0 is as inevitable as a Cat 5 in NO. People living there can realize that fact and leave, or deal with the consequences in the aftermath. There are millions of people in this country who by choice have put themselves and their families at risk.
For those that choose to accept that risk, they elect the people that establish the laws, govern them, and set the funding priorities. California takes emergency preparedness seriously. Louisiana had no plans to fix the levees and no comprehensive contingency plans. It is one of the most corrupt areas of the country and its population now suffers from their negligence over the past 30 years.
It is obvious that many of the people who chose to stay (not those who are trapped) did so in a premeditated way so they could enrich themselves through looting. Yes, it is survival and people are entitled to food and water, but I have no sympathy for those robbing jewelry stores, gun shops, and sneaker stores. They are evil. What kind of people shoot at rescue workers and rob ambulances?
Is California any better? Does anyone think the socal gangs would behave any differently? I'm not so sure.
What's my point? Events like this happen. Governments and individuals need to plan for them. Hold your local and state officials accountable. They are the first responders. Decide for yourself where you want to live and how much risk you want to accept. If you choose to live on a hurricane coast, on a fault line, on an unstable hillside, in tornado country or in a wildfire prone zone you share some blame in some of the ultimate consequences.
Angiegirl,
I am quite interested in the response to your question. There was a Polish gentleman on IORR who was happy this happened and felt that America had it coming. That attitude is shared by many in the Arab world, but I pray that Europe as a whole has not become that callous. He was quickly condemned so I suspect he is a just blinded by hate like those who blame Bush and global warming for this events and not representative of the majority of clear thinking individuals. Please share the consensus with us.
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| September 2nd, 2005 07:27 AM |
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| egon |
quote:
Jumping Jack wrote:
pdog,
Angiegirl,
I am quite interested in the response to your question. There was a Polish gentleman on IORR who was happy this happened and felt that America had it coming. That attitude is shared by many in the Arab world, but I pray that Europe as a whole has not become that callous. He was quickly condemned so I suspect he is a just blinded by hate like those who blame Bush and global warming for this events and not representative of the majority of clear thinking individuals. Please share the consensus with us.
anyone that thinks like this is a cock.
this is about people, not politics.
It's a tragedy no matter where it would happen.
Fyi; The netherlands has offered to send in our dyke experts. seems fitting
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| September 2nd, 2005 08:00 AM |
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| LadyJane |
My anger has now been replaced with total sadness.
I realized last night that this picture of New Orleans is really a microcosm of what America has become.
A land of 2 classes....those that have and those that have not. It's a great divide that is widening. It frightens me.
It is the poor, elderly, sick and disenfranchised that remained in NO. They didn't leave because they had no means to leave.
America....viewed by many as a people of great wealth, greed and glutony. Maybe so. Most of us though...just go to work every day....play by the rules....and hope and pray that an act of fate doesn't put us in the gutter.
War, children, it's just a shot away.......it's just a shot away.
Tearfully yours,
LJ.
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| September 2nd, 2005 08:28 AM |
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| Jumping Jack |
Why is it that the armed gangs of thieves have more rights than the poor, elderly, sick and disenfranchised? These anarchists are hampering the recovery efforts and people loose their lives as a result. If the guard goes in and kills these criminals there will be outrage by the ACLU and far left comparing it to Kent State, Ruby Ridge and Waco. The legal and political culture we have created in this country is truly messed up. |
| September 2nd, 2005 08:34 AM |
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| FPM C10 |
Subject: Vacation is Over... an open letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 05:18:40 -0400
Friday, September 2nd, 2005
Dear Mr. Bush:
Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.
Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?
Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!
I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?
And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!
On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.
There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.
No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!
You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.
Yours,
Michael Moore
[email protected]
www.MichaelMoore.com |
| September 2nd, 2005 09:04 AM |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
"It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars to rebuild a city that's seven feet under sea level."
Psst. Denny. New Orleans is the largest seaport in the United States and the fifth-largest port in the world. Billions of dollars of goods go through that port every day. Stopping that flow is going to be a major blow to the U.S. economy.
Where, pray tell, should we relocate the largest seaport in the U.S.? Hate to tell you, but it ain't going to be on Lake Michigan.
Posted by: Mnemosyne on September 1, 2005 at 9:27 PM | PERMALINK
[Edited by Ten Thousand Motels] |
| September 2nd, 2005 09:04 AM |
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| gimmekeef |
Theres lots of time later for blame..LETS JUST HELP THESE POOR PEOPLE FOR FUCK SAKES!!!!!!!!! |
| September 2nd, 2005 09:17 AM |
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| Joey |
[quote]Ten Thousand Motels wrote:
Psst. Denny. New Orleans is the largest seaport in the United States and the fifth-largest port in the world. Billions of dollars of goods go through that port every day. Stopping that flow is going to be a major blow to the U.S. economy. "
New Orleans is now part of the Gulf of Mexico and might very well remain that way ................. forever .
Developing ..........................................
Shiver ..........................................
" Stones Rule You Bastards ! "
Jacky Jr.
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