| September 2nd, 2005 11:05 PM |
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| Bloozehound |
quote:
Lazy Bones wrote:
damn riffhard's got all the hotties
you think their "levees" need to be plugged, I got a contigency plan
[Edited by Bloozehound] |
| September 2nd, 2005 11:06 PM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Riffy,
There is not an evacuation plan in the country that calls for bussing people out. Not one.
If we, in EMA, give you 3 or 4 days evacuation warning, we expect you to take care of yourself and get out. We do not provide free bus rides. It's up to you as an individual to do whatever you gotta do to get out. There is no money to provide free bus rides every time we tell people to evacuate. Sad but true.
The other reason why there is no free bus ride is that exactly where are you going to bus these people to? You can't just send them out in the middle of nowhere and drop them off. You have to provide for them. What happens if you order an evac, spend millions, maybe even billions on getting people out of the city, set up tent cities for them....and then nothing happens. The levee doesn't break. The storm takes a wacky turn and misses. Or it dies down before it hits you. Guess what, that money is gone. And 3 weeks later when a storm does hit...where is the money to evacuate everyone again? It's gone.
There is lots of blame to go around...from the Mayor of NOLA on up to Mr. Bush...and Riffy, Mr. Bush deserves every bit of blame that he gets. The buck stops on his desk. But I can tell you, when the question is asked..."Why weren't we prepared?"...I can answer it for you. It simply costs too much to be prepared, and Americans are not willing to do what it takes to be prepared. That is the cold hard fact. |
| September 2nd, 2005 11:18 PM |
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| Bloozehound |
your missing the point about the buses, as you've noticed these people have no where to go now, nowhere, it'll take'm a month just to drain New Orleans
the superdome is a filthy wreck that they're going to have to evacuate and probably demolish, and i know for a fact they've been relocating them to houston, dallas and san antonio, those buses coulda served alot better purpose then sitting like dead ducks in 10 foot of water
just goes to illustrate the point that they didn't think things out, they're weren't prepared for the worst
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| September 2nd, 2005 11:26 PM |
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| sirmoonie |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Oh yeah,I forgot to mention the time. Here's all the details.
RatTracks
Sunday Sept. 4th
8:30 pm EST.
A Bigger Bang from start to finnish.
With commentary from The Rat's own Stonesphile Steve Hook (that's me)
www.wrat.com via live stream.
Riffhard
[Edited by Riffhard]
I'll be listening (at fucking work!#@*). Are you going to be surfing while playing it?
This be cool, my first listen to Bango! |
| September 2nd, 2005 11:28 PM |
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| Riffhard |
Maybe so Essy,but as it is 500 municipal buses sit in a local municipal parking lot. Flooded. Empty. Useless. Like tits on a bull. Worthless. In the coming days over 10,000 corpses will be pulled from trees,sidewalks,and flooded attics. Perhaps the buses can be used then to transfer the rotting bodies of the thousands of victims to the morgue. Contigancy plans don't write themselves. Seems to me that the local and state goverment of a city sitting below sea level surrounded by water with years of advance warning could have made much better use of all of the municipal vehicals. Ofcourse,this is nothing more tahn Monday morning quarterbacking,and I'd be willing to bet that,God forbid, this tragedy ever replay itself that lessons will learned from the use of buses to every other fuckup that this tragedy has shined a light on.
Riffhard |
| September 2nd, 2005 11:40 PM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Of course they were not prepared! That's what my entire post was getting at. But they were not prepared for a reason. And that reason is MONEY.
Being prepared is REALLY expensive, it is incredibly inconvienient, and no one is willing to actually BE prepared. It's a pain in the ass to be prepared.
And it would sure as shit bite into the defense budget...and we all know THAT ain't gonna happen.
Look, pointing at those busses doesn't mean shit. It certainly doesn't mean what Riffy thinks it means. Those busses were useless. And they were useless long before Katrina got there. It's easy to point at those busses and scream. But you don't use those busses BEFORE the event. No one does. Not anywhere in the country. It just so happens that in this event those busses became junk after the event. Those busses are and always were moot.
But this is what happens when people start screaming about things that they know nothing about. |
| September 3rd, 2005 12:07 AM |
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| sirmoonie |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
Look, pointing at those busses doesn't mean shit. It certainly doesn't mean what Riffy thinks it means. Those busses were useless. And they were useless long before Katrina got there. It's easy to point at those busses and scream. But you don't use those busses BEFORE the event. No one does. Not anywhere in the country. It just so happens that in this event those busses became junk after the event. Those busses are and always were moot.
But this is what happens when people start screaming about things that they know nothing about.
Pfffffttt, I saw that bus pickie Riffie hesited from Drudge and just laughed. Like that fucking mattered whatsoever. Anything to protect the idiocy and ineptness of the adminstration of George Walker Bush III. Are these people like fucking all gay for him? Or at least related to him? Why do they care so much? Why do you care, so so so much about George Walker Bush III, Riffie et al.? Why do you love so much? Because he's like all for America and stuff like that?
Writing is on the wall. George Walker Bush III takes serious political hits for this, most of them WELL deserved, and even the ones that aren't deserved make up for all the retarded financial ventures and Islamic nation-building adventures this country has embarked on in the last 5 years under this nitwit who can barely speak his own language. Although its part of a natural evolution, George Walker Bush III and his policies have certainly hurried the process of urging the United States out of world domination. |
| September 3rd, 2005 12:08 AM |
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| Riffhard |
I stand by every post I have made about those buses,and I can damn well promiss you that serious questions will indeed be asked about their uselessness in the days that follow. I have stated right up front that Bush and Co. have their own share of blame in all of this. However,there can be absolutly no doubt whatsoever that the local and state pols did know well, even years,in advance that should a major flood happen that at least 20% of the greater NO population would be unable,or unwilling,to evacuate on their own. At that perecise moment it was the direct responsibility of said local and state goverment to make contingancy plans to deal with that very real,and obvious problem. Money,or no,a plan should have been in place within no more than a couple of months after the Hurricane Camile disaster of 1969. Yes,it takes cash to put a plan into place,but that burden rests entirely upon the state and local politicians to pressure their own senators and state reps to get that money. They have had 36 long years since 1969's Camile to get a plan together. They failed to do so. Bush should not get the lion's share of blame for the complete lack of local contingancy plans. He bears much of the responsibility for the federal goverments ineptitude in the immediate aftermath,but the local goverment has alot of explaining to do,and those buses will be pointed to again and again in the coming weeks and months. That's bankable.
Riffhard |
| September 3rd, 2005 12:35 AM |
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| sirmoonie |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Bush should not get the lion's share of blame for the complete lack of local contingancy plans. He bears much of the responsibility for the federal goverments ineptitude in the immediate aftermath,but the local goverment has alot of explaining to do,and those buses will be pointed to again and again in the coming weeks and months. That's bankable.
Riffhard
Put it this way, Riffie. Given George Walker Bush III's clear love of everything that has to do with MASSIVE federal government spending, power, and control, shouldn't relatively more blame lie with him than the obviously inept (albiet poor) local government in weak sister Louisiana? I suppose thats the way the question is properly framed. Shouldn't relatively more blame go to him now, than say 6 years ago?
Try to answer in a way that doesn't make you continue to look like an pithy caveat apologist for George Walker Bush III. |
| September 3rd, 2005 12:39 AM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
OK think whatever you want Riffy. I guess you'd know more about this stuff than I would being an "on air personality" and everything. I mean, I just do this kind of thing for a living...so what would I know.
This event won't really change anything about preparedness. Not really. Oh people will be all gung-ho about emergency preparedness for a while...until they realize just what REAL preparedness entails, how much of a pain in the ass it is, and how much it costs. Then they will settle for lip-service preparedness that isn't effective, but is cheap and easy. Then when the next disaster strikes that they aren't ready for they can all point fingers at someone else. Again.
You know, the Mayor and the Govenor didn't cut the funding for levee mait. by 50%.....
[Edited by Sir Stonesalot] |
| September 3rd, 2005 12:52 AM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:
Put it this way, Riffie. Given George Walker Bush III's clear love of everything that has to do with MASSIVE federal government spending, power, and control, shouldn't relatively more blame lie with him than the obviously inept (albiet poor) local government in weak sister Louisiana? I suppose thats the way the question is properly framed. Shouldn't relatively more blame go to him now, than say 6 years ago?
Try to answer in a way that doesn't make you continue to look like an pithy caveat apologist for George Walker Bush III.
Hey I have been anything but a Bush apologist during this whole thing,and yes Bush does spend way too much money. That some of that spending was inherited as a direct result of 9/11/01 cannot be discounted though. But,yes,he is a spender.
I still go back to the local goverment's job. Which,like the federal goverment's,is first the protection of it's citizinary. The local and state gov of La. have had decades to put together a plan. It is painfully obvious that they have failed,and failed misrably at doing that. In other words regardless of who is in the WH the goverment of La. has dropped the ball in big way on their own citizens. Should Bush inherit the lion's share of the blame because La.,and New Orleans in particular,have not developed a plan in the decades prior to Katrina? It seems quite obvious to me that they knew damned good and well that this was a likely scenerio. Yet nothing was done for decades. That cannot be laid at Bush's feet. That is on La.'s own goverment. They own that massive oversite,and that picture of the buses is not going to play very well back home when the bodies are being counted.
Having said that,yes,Bush will take a massive political hit afterall is said and done. As I suspect,any president would after a catastrophe of this magnitude. A very expensive and horrible lesson has been learned here,and I would not want to be in position of leadership when the bill comes due. Be it the US president,the mayor of NO,the La. governor,senators,etc. Everyone is going to get spanked over this clusterfuck. Mostly the poor people that were left to fend for themselves though.
Riffhard |
| September 3rd, 2005 12:59 AM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
OK think whatever you want Riffy. I guess you'd know more about this stuff than I would being an "on air personality" and everything. I mean, I just do this kind of thing for a living...so what would I know.
Totally uncalled for Marc. I have no doubt that you are fully competant in your job,and know much more about the resourcing for this shit than I do. That does not mean that the local and state goverment are not going get a shitload of flack for allowing those buses to sit! I can promiss you that the victims' families won't give two shits about any excuses as to why they were not deployed to help those without means of travel to evacuate. No excuse is going to work for them,nor should it. There is no excuse worth even trotting out to them. 1969 is a long time ago. Plans could have,and should have been made. They weren't,and that blame will be laid directly at the La. goverments feet. Where it rightfully belongs.
Riffhard |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:19 AM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Jesus fuck Riffy...it's Louisiana! What the hell did you expect? Did you actually expect that they'd know what they were doing?
For that matter, do you really think ANY local government knows what the fuck it's doing? I work for one of those....they have no fuckin' clue. The level of ineptitude is astounding. Jobs are freely handed out to golf buddies and fellow garden club members. People that actually know what they are doing are quickly shunted to the side so that a job can be given to the dude who can deliver the Rotary Club vote.
Jeez man. Don't you know anything? |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:20 AM |
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| Bloozehound |
I just got off the phone with an old buddy of mine whose from louisiana, has alot of family in the NO area, and he tells me..
"yeah they'll get gung-ho for about a month and work on fixing it and then throw a huge party and get drunk for about a week to celebrate, then forget about it, and in about 10 years 'Nawlins will become the biggest permamnt scuba diving attraction in the western hemisphere
thats just louisiana for you |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:21 AM |
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| Maxmeister |
I've only read this 12th page so I'm sure I'm missing some of this last discussion.
First of all SS is spot on about the costs of what it would truly cost to have the kind of response that some demand for any catastrophe.[In case it hasn't been stated, FEMA lists Terrorism as the #1 potential catastrophe in this country, catastrophic earthquake in Ca. #2 and a cat 4 or 5 hurricane in New Orleans is #3.] It hasn't nor will it ever happen. BUT, it seems painfully obvious the local and state gov'ts were severely lacking in both short and long term preparations and training. Fuck, the NO police and emergency personnel did not have a contingency plan for a complete communications blackout. Look what is happening here in H-Town. They are using their training to react in less than 48 hours and are doing an awesome job. I wish everyone could see our local coverage to really get a grasp on what is happening all around this city. National news can never convey the whole story.
There's plenty of legitimate blame to go around but the problem is making judgements on who to blame and why, based on reality rather than political and agenda spin. That's probably next to impossible for a multitude of reasons.
Rick |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:35 AM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
>Plans could have,and should have been made.<
And plans were made. At least plans that were affordable were made. That those plans didn't work....well DUH. Disaster plans almost NEVER work.
If you had asked the NOLA EMA director before hand if his disaster plans were gonna work, he'd laugh at you and say, "Of course not. But we'll do the best we can with what we got. Assuming we have anything left after the levee breaks. Ya'll." In fact, I think he HAS been saying that to anyone that will listen for the last 5 years!
Look man, if those levees don't break, we aren't even talking right now. But everyone knew that if those levees break NOLA was fucked. Ask anyone that lived there. Didn't stop someone who now resides in Washington DC to cut the Corps of Engineers levee mait. budget by 50%. |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:43 AM |
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| pdog |
quote:
Maxmeister wrote:
catastrophic earthquake in Ca. #2
And homes in SF cost a Gazzilion dollars, go figure... |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:44 AM |
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| sirmoonie |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Hey I have been anything but a Bush apologist during this whole thing,and yes Bush does spend way too much money. That some of that spending was inherited as a direct result of 9/11/01 cannot be discounted though. But,yes,he is a spender.
I still go back to the local goverment's job. Which,like the federal goverment's,is first the protection of it's citizinary. The local and state gov of La. have had decades to put together a plan. It is painfully obvious that they have failed,and failed misrably at doing that. In other words regardless of who is in the WH the goverment of La. has dropped the ball in big way on their own citizens. Should Bush inherit the lion's share of the blame because La.,and New Orleans in particular,have not developed a plan in the decades prior to Katrina? It seems quite obvious to me that they knew damned good and well that this was a likely scenerio. Yet nothing was done for decades. That cannot be laid at Bush's feet. That is on La.'s own goverment. They own that massive oversite,and that picture of the buses is not going to play very well back home when the bodies are being counted.
Having said that,yes,Bush will take a massive political hit afterall is said and done. As I suspect,any president would after a catastrophe of this magnitude. A very expensive and horrible lesson has been learned here,and I would not want to be in position of leadership when the bill comes due. Be it the US president,the mayor of NO,the La. governor,senators,etc. Everyone is going to get spanked over this clusterfuck. Mostly the poor people that were left to fend for themselves though.
Riffhard
1. I didn't say "Bush apologist", I said "pithy caveat apologist for George Walker Bush III" which you are blatantly still being. Someday, you'll have to explain to me, your man-love for that guy. Why is he hot? Eyes too close together, not all that bright, fake walk, fake accent, I just don't think he is right for you at this time......I just don't.....
2. I "get" your newly invented local government responsibility argument which, taken to its none to illogical extent, says all of us niggies need to take responsibility for ourselves. I agree. We do. 51% of us voted for BIG ASS federal government and its oversight. We voted to create a 700,000 THOUSAND employee agency called the Department of HOMELAND SECURITY and created all kinds of BIG ass federal governments entitlements and distributions and whatnots and wherewhithalls and urine. Like all kinds of stuff. Do you know what "federalism" means, Riffie? Anyway, we voted for it, Geoirge Walker Bush III promised it, and it wasn't there.
3. Yes, it is fucked, my friend. People with $100 in the bank or their pockets can't really decide to go on, what they thought then, would have been 4 day road trips. To where? How pay? How get there? We, as a nation, understandably don't pay much attention to the poor. They kind of suck and, at least, the adults deserve it under some kind of godly scheme I am not priven too. But the kids didn't. Not under any undertsnading of god. We could have, the guy in charge fucked up.
Never thought I'd see the United States of America let Indonesia set the bar on what to do with its lowliest citizens though. Ugly, and isn't getting better. Not for a long time. |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:48 AM |
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| pdog |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
>Plans could have,and should have been made.<
And plans were made. At least plans that were affordable were made. That those plans didn't work....well DUH.
I have enough food water and a small med kit put away in case an 7.0 or higher hits. Some flashlights, batteries blankets and some other weird shit I've picked up just in case. After seeing what happened in NOLA, I'm getting a really really big handgun too! |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:51 AM |
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| Maxmeister |
quote:
pdog wrote:
I have enough food water and a small med kit put away in case an 7.0 or higher hits. Some flashlights, batteries blankets and some other weird shit I've picked up just in case. After seeing what happened in NOLA, I'm getting a really really big handgun too!
Don't forget the Anchor Steam!!
Rick |
| September 3rd, 2005 01:52 AM |
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| Bloozehound |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
If you had asked the NOLA EMA director before hand if his disaster plans were gonna work, he'd laugh at you and say, "Of course not. But we'll do the best we can with what we got. Assuming we have anything left after the levee breaks. Ya'll." In fact, I think he HAS been saying that to anyone that will listen for the last 5 years!
no, try at least 40 years since around hurricane Betsy era
GOOGLE IT
their major concern ever since has been with the waters overflowing OVER the levees, NOT shattering right through them
This took many by surprise, believe it or not
these levee upgrades have been on the back burner since the 1960's, why the fuck should they speed up progress now
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| September 3rd, 2005 01:54 AM |
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| pdog |
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:
Never thought I'd see the United States of America let Indonesia set the bar on what to do with its lowliest citizens though. Ugly, and isn't getting better. Not for a long time.
I wasn't really surprised! I think this has been something that was just a matter of time. It's like we live in one big smear the queer pile up, why be surprised when the fag on the bottom gets crushed to death!
It can be worse... This was just a Hurricane...? Don't take anything fror granted, b/c this ain't the America our grandfathers fought for in WWII. This is the Iraq our kids are fighting for in 2005. If you think it can't happen, you're not prepared. |
| September 3rd, 2005 02:02 AM |
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| texile |
the face of houston is changing as we speak.....and i'm so proud of my city;
5 DAYS - it took 5 DAYS for our president to get to louisiana and miss. - LEADERSHIP? .....my local community was ready to take in and shelter evacuees immediately - they started coming sunday morning and we responded without thinking twice.....in churches, with volunteerism, donations - from all over the city.... while our fearless leaders - in washington and louisiana - waited for somebody else to take care of the problem....there's blame to go around everywhere - somebody from the local chapter of the red cross told me the govt was restricting them to go into louisiana - so all they could do was wait.....this is a disgrace... |
| September 3rd, 2005 02:07 AM |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
>you're not prepared.<
I know I'm not. It costs too much.
Hey look, seriously, if you are gonna buy a gun, spend some time to learn how to use it. I don't want you to hurt yourself in an unfortunate accident.
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| September 3rd, 2005 02:13 AM |
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| pdog |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
>you're not prepared.<
I know I'm not. It costs too much.
Hey look, seriously, if you are gonna buy a gun, spend some time to learn how to use it. I don't want you to hurt yourself in an unfortunate accident.
I was raised around guns. My dad taught me at a young age how to shoot, clean and most importantly how to respect a gun. He also taught me never bring a knife to a gunfight! I grew up in Jersey... Shit! Not West Virginia.
Guns are olny good for one thing, and I hope I NEVER ever have to shoot one again. |
| September 3rd, 2005 03:16 AM |
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| The_Worst |
I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS BULLSHIT!!! NEW ORLEANS HAS BEEN A CITY WAITING TO BE DESTROYED FOR CENTURIES & NOW THAT IT HAS IT IS 100% GEORGE W. BUSH'S FAULT!!!
WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT.....
LET ME GET A STEP AHEAD OF ALL YOU FUCKING MORONS IN CASE THERE IS AN EARTHQUAKE IN CALIFORNIA BEFORE GWB LEAVES OFFICE IN JANUARY OF 2009...
"IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE BECAUSE MEXICANS LIVE IN CALIFORNIA & BUSH HATES MEXICANS!!!"
THERE DOES THAT COVER IT ASSHOLES?!?!?! |
| September 3rd, 2005 03:26 AM |
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| sirmoonie |
quote:
The_Worst wrote:
I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS BULLSHIT!!! NEW ORLEANS HAS BEEN A CITY WAITING TO BE DESTROYED FOR CENTURIES & NOW THAT IT HAS IT IS 100% GEORGE W. BUSH'S FAULT!!!
WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT.....
LET ME GET A STEP AHEAD OF ALL YOU FUCKING MORONS IN CASE THERE IS AN EARTHQUAKE IN CALIFORNIA BEFORE GWB LEAVES OFFICE IN JANUARY OF 2009...
"IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE BECAUSE MEXICANS LIVE IN CALIFORNIA & BUSH HATES MEXICANS!!!"
THERE DOES THAT COVER IT ASSHOLES?!?!?!
You go girl!
You are stronnnnngggggg! You are invicible!
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| September 3rd, 2005 03:27 AM |
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| texile |
no - the hurricane wasn't his fault - but as a leader - he should have been in the center of the fallout BEFORE the shit his the fan in NO - along with the local govt...and he wasn't, neither were they - simple as that, worst....
ordinary people stepped up before shrub did and THAT'S a damn shame...it isn't about politics.
the writing was on the wall, the forewarnings - they needed to mobilize people out before sunday fucking morning when katrina was already on thier ass - and this means FINDING a way for the poorer people to have access to shelter....they got nothing. |
| September 3rd, 2005 05:33 AM |
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| egon |
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:
You go girl!
You are stronnnnngggggg! You are invicible!
LOL |
| September 3rd, 2005 08:36 AM |
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| glencar |
quote:
texile wrote:
no - the hurricane wasn't his fault - but as a leader - he should have been in the center of the fallout BEFORE the shit his the fan in NO - along with the local govt...and he wasn't, neither were they - simple as that, worst....
ordinary people stepped up before shrub did and THAT'S a damn shame...it isn't about politics.
the writing was on the wall, the forewarnings - they needed to mobilize people out before sunday fucking morning when katrina was already on thier ass - and this means FINDING a way for the poorer people to have access to shelter....they got nothing.
The Federal gov't is supposed to step in every time there's a potential crisis looming? You'd better check your Constitution, son. The city/state should have handled that. I agree with you if you're saying that W & Co. screwed up some in the aftermath of the hurricane but that Mayor should be chased out of town. I just hope the gov'ner doesn't cry when THAT happens.
[Edited by glencar] |
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