| 16th August 2007 01:27 PM |
|
|
| GotToRollMe |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
The reference is about the 12th and 13th century troubadors who traveled along the silk road east looking for treasures and singing their particular brand of bawdy love songs etc. Often these singing minstels were abushed along the silk road as they traveled east. The more things change the more they stay the same I suppose,because the troubadors were ambushed by cut throat Muslims on the way to Bombay and points east. They were most often killed or held for ransom. Ransom was rarely paid so the usual outcome was death at the hands of the "religion of peace."
So there you have it. The shining light of Allah was referenced by Jagger long before the problems that the world faces today from these same fucktards.
Riffy
Always thought it was about these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
|
| 16th August 2007 01:30 PM |
|
|
| GotToRollMe |
quote:
Gazza wrote:
The word is "politesse", not "politics"
As you probably know, the song was inspired by Bulgakov's novel "The Master and Margarita"
That line is taken almost verbatim from the novel
Damn, and all these years I thought it was "polities," but "politesse" makes a lot more sense.
|
| 16th August 2007 01:45 PM |
|
|
| mrhipfl |
Axl definitely sang politics in the GNR version though. |
| 16th August 2007 01:48 PM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
quote:
GotToRollMe wrote:
Always thought it was about these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
Indeed that is exactly who Mick may be refering to. Again though, Thuggees were the insane radical muslims of their day and, they no doubt laid traps for troubadors back in the day. That whole region was the crossroads of the silk road which many of these people traveled and never returned.
Riffy |
| 16th August 2007 01:54 PM |
|
|
| Riffhard |
quote:
mrhipfl wrote:
Axl definitely sang politics in the GNR version though.
Axl's an idiot. As if we needed any more proof. LOL! I always laugh when I hear that horrible version of Sympathy.
Riffy |
| 16th August 2007 02:17 PM |
|
|
| steel driving hammer |
This perpetuated the image of the Stones as frightening bad boys, as opposed to the clean-cut Beatles. It was great marketing for the band.
The lyrics were inspired by The Master and Margarita, a book by Mikhail Bulgakov. British singer Marianne Faithfull was Mick Jagger's girlfriend at the time and she gave him the book. Faithfull came from an upper-class background and exposed Jagger to a lot of new ideas. In the book, the devil is a sophisticated socialite, a "man of wealth and taste."
Jagger claims this is about the dark side of man, not a celebration of Satanism.
A documentary by French filmmaker Jean-Luc Godard called One Plus One captured the recording of this. A lamp for the documentary started a fire in the studio. The tapes were saved, but a lot of the Stones' equipment was destroyed.
The original title was "The Devil Is My Name." Says Jagger: "Songs can metamorphasize. And Sympathy for the Devil is one of those songs that started off like one thing, I wrote it one way and then we started the change the rhythm. And then it became completely different. And then it got very exciting. It started off as a Folk song and then became a Samba. A good song can become anything. It's got lots of historical references and lots of poetry."
Richards (2002): "Sympathy is quite an uplifting song. It's just a matter of looking the Devil in the face. He's there all the time. I've had very close contact with Lucifer - I've met him several times. Evil - people tend to bury it and hope it sorts itself out and doesn't rear its ugly head. Sympathy for the Devil is just as appropriate now, with 9/11. There it is again, big time. When that song was written, it was a time of turmoil. It was the first sort of international chaos since World War II. And confusion is not the ally of peace and love. You want to think the world is perfect. Everybody gets sucked into that. And as America has found out to its dismay, you can't hide. You might as well accept the fact that evil is there and deal with it any way you can. Sympathy for the Devil is a song that says, Don't forget him. If you confront him, then he's out of a job." (thanks, bertrand - Paris, France, for above 2)
The Stones played this at the Altamont Speedway concert in 1969 before a fan was fatally stabbed. The crowd got more unruly as the song went on. The Stones were playing "Under My Thumb" when the stabbing occurred, but they did not perform "Sympathy For The Devil" for 7 years after the incident due to the public outcry.
Some of the historical events mentioned in this song are the crucifixion of Christ, the Russian Revolution, World War II, and the Kennedy Assassinations. Robert Kennedy was killed after this was written, but they changed the lyrics to get in the timely reference.
Other historical events alluded to in the song include the 100 years war ("fought for ten decades") and the Holocaust ("and the furnace stank"). (thanks, Phil - Rochester, NY)
The "Ooh-Ooh" chorus was added when Richard's girlfriend, Anita Pallenberg, did it during a take and the Stones liked how it sounded. Pallenberg had broken up with Brian Jones before taking up with Richards.
Stones producer Jimmy Miller: "Anita (Pallenberg) was the epitome of what was happening at the time. She was very Chelsea. She'd arrive with the elite film crowd. During Sympathy for the Devil when I started going whoo, whoo in the control room, so did they I had the engineer set up a mike so they could go out in the studio and whoo, whoo." (thanks, bertrand - Paris, France)
On their 1989 Steel Wheels tour, The Stones performed this with Jagger standing high above the stage next to a fire. Mick wore a safety belt in case he fell.
The Stones performed this on Rock and Roll Circus, a British TV special The Stones taped in 1968 but never aired. It was released on video in 1995. During the performance, Jagger removes his shirt to reveal devil tattoos on his chest and arms.
Guns N' Roses covered this in 1995 for the move Interview With The Vampire (This song appears at the end of the movie, which stars Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt and a young Kirsten Dunst). Their version hit #9 in England. Jane's Addiction also did a cover. (thanks, Brett - Edmonton, Canada)
The beat is based on a Samba rhythm. Says Richards: "Sympathy for the Devil started as sort of a folk song with acoustics, and ended up as a kind of mad samba, with me playing bass and overdubbing the guitar later. That's why I don't like to go into the studio with all the songs worked out and planned beforehand."
The opening lines of this song, "Please allow me to introduce myself I'm a man of wealth and taste" were quoted by The Devil character (played by actor Rick Collins) in the film The Toxic Avenger Part III: The Last Temptation of Toxie. (thanks, Jeff - Haltom City, TX)
In 2003, The Stones released this as a "maxi-single," with 4 versions of the song. The original was on there, as well as remixes by The Neptunes, Fatboy Slim, and Full Phatt.
The industrial band Laibach released an entire album containing different covers of this. The character and tone of the Laibach covers are largely very different from the Stones original. In the opening track the lead singer sings/shouts in a very deep bass voice with a thick Slavic accent. One of their covers contains references to the violence at the Altamont raceway.
Some other worthy covers: Sandra Bernhard, Blood, Sweat & Tears, Bryan Ferry, Guns N' Roses, Jane's Addiction, The London Symphony Orchestra, Natalie Merchant, U2. (thanks, Neal - Cleveoh, OH)
One verse of lyrics was recited by Intel Vice President Steve McGeady during his testimony in Microsoft's antitrust trial in November 1998. McGeady had written a memo about Microsoft with the subject "Sympathy For The Devil," and when asked whether he was calling Microsoft the devil, McGeady recited the passage about using your well-learned politesse. (thanks, Keith - Seattle, WA)
In his book Mystery Train, Greil Marcus states that this was influenced by Robert Johnson's song "Me and the Devil Blues." Keith Richards describes Johnson's influence as "Like a comet or a meteor" in the liner notes to Robert Johnson - The Complete Recordings. (thanks, elijah - Cincinnati, OH)
The "Troubadours who got killed before they reached Bombay" refers to the hippies who traveled the "Hippie Trail" by road. Many on them were killed and ripped off by drug peddlers in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Those shady deals were probably the "traps." (thanks, Jose - Minneapolis, MN)
Jagger (1995): "It has a very hypnotic groove, a samba, which has a tremendous hypnotic power, rather like good dance music. It doesn't speed up or down. It keeps this constant groove. Plus, the actual samba rhythm is a great one to sing on, but it's also got some other suggestions in it, an undercurrent of being primitive - because it is a primitive African, South American, Afro-whatever-you-call-that rhythm. So to white people, it has a very sinister thing about it. But forgetting the cultural colors, it is a very good vehicle for producing a powerful piece. It becomes less pretentious because it's a very unpretentious groove. If it had been done as a ballad, it wouldn't have been as good."
Jagger (1995): "I knew it was a good song. You just have this feeling. It had its poetic beginning, and then it had historic references and then philosophical jottings and so on. It's all very well to write that in verse, but to make it into a pop song is something different. Especially in England - you're skewered on the altar of pop culture if you become pretentious."
|
| 17th August 2007 09:16 AM |
|
|
| kovach |
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Not exactly. India and Pakistan were divided by the British in '47, and the dividing line was rather crude in the Kashmir area. The struggles that are going on in that region are not political, but economical. As the area is very rich in reserves and land for harvesting, Pakistan keeps claiming the area as the mountain side of Pakistan is very poor in reserves. India now is a secular country by the way, with only about 12 percent Muslims.
Of course, religion always has a part in these struggles, but that's what happens in every conflict. The Islamic fanatic terrorism of these days is sparked by the Israel, Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, and the presence of Western powers in oil rich Arabic countries in general.
And to a lighter note: Brian Jones, Marianne Faithful and Anita Pallenberg are NOT singing backup vocals on the released version. The film where you see them singing around a mike in the studio was staged for the camera's. The whoo-whoo's are by Jagger, Richards and Jimmy Miller.
Mathijs
I recently read a new book ("Wars Of Blood And Faith, The Conflicts That Will Shape the Twenty-First Century") by a retired military guy that had a chapter dealing with the subject of borders in the middle east (and Africa for that matter), and how they were drawn up by the British in their own interest rather than in the interest of those living in those regions.
Interesting reading, the chapter on that subject (the book was a collection of articles he's written for various magazines and newspapers):
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899
The current map and the way he thinks it should've been drawn:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Ralph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg
[Edited by kovach] |
| 17th August 2007 09:56 AM |
|
|
| Nasty Habits |
quote:
Gazza wrote:
The word is "politesse", not "politics"
As you probably know, the song was inspired by Bulgakov's novel "The Master and Margarita"
That line is taken almost verbatim from the novel
Really? I may have a different translation from you but I don't recall that at all. Would love to know how the original reads . . . but if you don't recall it I suppose there are worse things to do than read Master and Margarita again. Such a great book.
It's a major concern for the various characters to figure out or at least remember the devil's name on one hand and Jesus's on the other (for the part of the book that's set back in Pilate's universe). I always assumed that's where Mick got all the stuff about "hope you guessed my name". |
| 18th August 2007 03:17 AM |
|
|
| Zack |
quote:
steel driving hammer wrote:
The Stones were playing "Under My Thumb" when the stabbing occurred, but they did not perform "Sympathy For The Devil" for 7 years after the incident due to the public outcry.
Not true, they played it eight days later in London, then through the entire European tour in 1970. It was dropped on the Spring 71 Farewell Britain tour until 75. Still, that's three major tours without one of their clearly greatest songs (but they didn't play HTW much on the 72 US tour, either). It's all on Gazza's setlist pages.
|
| 18th August 2007 11:48 PM |
|
|
| Wide As The Clyde |
Alliteration, maybe. "Traps for troubadours" truly trips off the tongue, it must be said.
Similarly, "Red coal carpet", which also uses 2 hard 'c's together, so it's sort of abrasive and uncomfortable.
I imagine that the song (Sympathy..) repeatedly asks the listener to guess who is speaking/singing to them to be the whole conceit of the piece, (even craftily revealed in the line: "I shouted out 'Who killed the Kennedys', well after all, it was you and me." STILL the greatest lyrics in any song on any record anywhere, Imo) and what the song is suggesting is that the 'devil' is a mythical, supernatural notion, while the events/deeds/occurences carefully detailed in the song are all very real and all very man-made. In short, the notion of 'evil' has been conveniently invented, by people, so that they can do naughty things and not feel bad about it.
[Edited by Wide As The Clyde]
[Edited by Wide As The Clyde] |
| 19th August 2007 05:34 AM |
|
|
| Mathijs |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
While I am not about to get into a pissing match over this subject, I do have to give pause with this assertion. Are you implying that the reason that radical Islam is murdering innocents on every continent, save Antarctica, is because the existence of Israel, and because the USA's involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq?
I specifically stated "western" involvement, not "American". Without going into what the western involvement is all about, and whether it is good or bad, it is safe to assume that the presence of western power in Islamic countries is one of the reasons for Islamic terrorism around the world.
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Israel was set up by the beloved UN back in 1947. Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East. Israeli Arabs have more say over their own future in this Jewish State than they do in any Islamic state in the world. They have a higher standard of living, and better education in Israel than do other Muslims in any Islamic state as well.
I fully agree with you, but again, the Islamic world sees Israel, and the connections to mainly the US that Israel has, as one of the absolute evils in his world, and evil that must be destroyed.
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Even though Islamic terror has been going on for decades now, and against all infidels worldwide, he still couldn't bring himself to come to the obvious conclusion that radical Islam is a wicked perversion of a world religion and it's being fomented by despots trying to deflect any blame from themselves by laying blame on others. That some people not brainwashed in Islamic madrases buy this nonsense would believe it as well is stunning to most normal rational thinking people.
Radical Islamic is just as bad as radical left or right wing like RAF and PETA, or radical (orthodox) Jews in Israel, or radical right wing Christians in the US, or radical Basks in Spain.
Last week an Egyptian mufti said something very intelligent in my opinion. He said that the Western world surpasses the Muslim world in every sense: economics, sports, democraty, freedom in every sense, education and what more. The only thing the Muslim world has, is the feeling that they have a pure belief, and they live in a pure and good society, while the western world has a society dominated by sex and violence. The only thing a muslim has, is his own religion, and if everthing around you is falling to pieces, you hide in your own religion and you becomre more and more religious.
The problems of terrorism and the problem with Islam we see these days is not because of the Islamic religion, but because of the social surroundings. The Islam is now used and abused just as any religion has been used and abused over the years.
Mathijs
|
| 19th August 2007 08:35 PM |
|
|
| andrews27 |
The problems of the Islamic world may loosely be called hangovers of Ottoman Empire domination. DISCUSS |
|
