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Topic: Neocon Return to archive Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
August 12th, 2005 02:00 PM
Maxlugar [quote]lotsajizz wrote:


The Texas Jesus freaks, that's who
same ones Mick sang about in Luxury

wherever there is oil in the word--whether it be Libya or Labrador, Arabia or Aruba, Iraq or Iran, you will find Texans--they are the management and most of the specialists in oil fields around the globe


What is it with you and Jesus?

God forbid those tree freaks let this country build some more refineries or perhaps a nuclear plant or 100.

Whine whine whine but no solutions.

August 12th, 2005 02:04 PM
Mel Belli
quote:
Mathijs wrote:


America invaded Iraq for oil, we all know that by now. I think it is quite weak to defend this by accusing the UN of not wanting to invade due to "selfish reasons". Your historical senses are failing then.

Mathijs



Er, no. If America wanted Iraq's oil, all it had to do was ask. Saddam was quite willing to sell it, remember? There are far more efficient means of obtaining a country's oil than invading it and risking the utter destruction of its infrastructure. It's called doing business, which the U.S. -- rightly - refused to do with Saddam. (Please don't bring up the Rumsfeld handshake. That was in the '80s, when America thought Islamic Iran was the greater threat.)
August 12th, 2005 02:40 PM
sirmoonie The United States has made clear since at least the Carter years that the flow of oil to the West is a matter of national security. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could disagree with that. We would be plunged into chaos if the supply of oil were significantly interrupted. We would be reduced to beating each other over the heads with pool cues in response to subliminal suggestions if the oil done got itself all strangulated.

Whether the strategy was correct or not I suppose is still debatable, but oil is the global reason we are currently, and for the forseeable future, occupying the Islamic Republic of Iraq. Its the only reason we do anything in that part of world.

That we are there to PLUNDER the oil, however, is a stupid a suggestion as us being there to liberate anybody or to spread democracy. If you believe any of those three things - plunder, liberate, spread - then you probably still want to be a fireman or a wide receiver when you eventually grow up.
August 12th, 2005 03:06 PM
Jair
quote:
glencar wrote:
amazon.co has 30 second samples off all the songs up. The snippet of Neocon isn't all that good. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000A7Q27I/qid%3D1122664910/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F0%5F1/202-3702235-1315000



Hey, & the cover...nothing written there. Wondering if it's the final version...
August 12th, 2005 03:24 PM
lotsajizz
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
[quote]lotsajizz wrote:


God forbid those tree freaks let this country build some more refineries or perhaps a nuclear plant or 100.

Whine whine whine but no solutions.





that is a common tactic amongst the far right wingers here--it is called 'erecting a strawman', it happens when you put forward a proposition that you can attack but which was never put forward by the other party, because you can't argue with what was said, you must say something else that maybe you can argue


there was no mention of tree freaks or tree huggers or of whining in my posts
but Maxlugar, instead of dealing with what was said, brought these up as red herrings


too typical

now declare victory and let the puppets be pulled

August 12th, 2005 04:58 PM
Hondo
quote:
lotsajizz wrote:


The Texas Jesus freaks, that's who
same ones Mick sang about in Luxury

wherever there is oil in the word--whether it be Libya or Labrador, Arabia or Aruba, Iraq or Iran, you will find Texans--they are the management and most of the specialists in oil fields around the globe




Yeah, Mick told you he was singing about Texas Jesus freaks.
What a Putz
August 12th, 2005 05:23 PM
lotsajizz and here we have the strawman tactic perfectly illustrated!
August 12th, 2005 05:28 PM
Hondo OK Teach
August 12th, 2005 05:48 PM
sirmoonie
quote:
lotsajizz wrote:
that is a common tactic amongst the far right wingers here--it is called 'erecting a strawman', it happens when you put forward a proposition that you can attack but which was never put forward by the other party, because you can't argue with what was said, you must say something else that maybe you can argue


I've seen both "sides" do that many times, although it sure is a prevalent tactic for severe supporters of George Walker Bush III. They basically invent or find some dramatic instance of an insane position, then flatly attribute it to a large, loosely defined enemy group, and then agree with themselves about whatever usually unrelated conclusion they wanted to discuss in the first instance.

Strangely, I don't think they do it to avoid the merits of an argument, as you suggest (Bill O'Reilly does it for that reason and he is very good at it). Rather, I think they believe its a valid methodology for argument in and of itself. I also don't think many of them even do it knowingly. I think they do it as a way of validating actual sincere, core and almost spiritual beliefs about the way they wish life was - a form of internal martyrdom that promotes well being.

And then there are people are just all around fucking idiots too. I'm not suggesting that isn't part of the equation.
August 12th, 2005 06:16 PM
stonedinaustralia
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:
but oil is the global reason we are currently, and for the forseeable future, occupying the Islamic Republic of Iraq. Its the only reason we do anything in that part of world.





thanks sirm

in my view anyone who says it (the western infiltration of the middle east)is not about the oil is seriously deluded

it's understandable, as you point out oil and security (the Us's and by extension australia'a too)have been linked for decades now but why be disingenuous about it

so i don't buy this "we are there to liberate and "civilize" arghument" at all - that's a convenient (and strangely liberal) type of explanation - why not just come out with the hard nut cutting truth of it

i mean, it's funny how the coalition have no real will to go to Zimbabwe and sort them out - but then again there's no money in it



[Edited by stonedinaustralia]
August 12th, 2005 06:37 PM
lotsajizz sirmoonie, as usual, is dead on correct with this point
August 13th, 2005 12:40 AM
pdog Seems people only really get upset when the name calling or accusation exposes them for what they really are! That's why the right wing christian controlled media is slamming The Stones! When did Republicans lose control of their party?
When Dennis Miller became a Republican ,no one cried!
August 13th, 2005 08:02 AM
Jumping Jack Solutions?

How many of you are driving vehicles that get 50 miles per gallon or more? Mick is right about there being a lot of hypocrites in the world. As a matter of fact, I don't see him being driven to a show in a hybrid.
August 13th, 2005 08:25 AM
corgi37 I drive a big car for the following reasons.

It was all i could afford
I have 4 kids to cart around
I am a bad driver

I am really spewing about all this controversy. I watch Fox all the time for a laugh at the right-wing "chicken hawks", but have failed to see one reference to the Stones.

Maybe when the tour starts.
August 13th, 2005 12:42 PM
Bloozehound I find it pretty gawdamned silly that mr coorperate tour, jetset boy himself Mick "one of the wealthiest men in UK" Jagger is writing songs bitching about the price of gas

I mean, when was the last time you think Mick pulled his black limousine up to the pump to GASS'r up

August 13th, 2005 12:46 PM
Mick Jagger Petrol Gang
(Jagger/Richards)

Please Mr. President, say it isn't so
And I have a buck till I'm on duct ten row
Please Mr. President, say it isn't so
I don't wanna, pay $10.00 for gas
I got nowhere to go...

I talk to Mr. Getty I talk to Texaco
I talk to Standard Oil
They say they got plenty to go..oh
Please Mr. President, say it isn't so
I don't have to sell my Cadillac that I, just paid for
I just paid for...

Play it faster Stu
Bit behind there..dear
About two miles (pause) behind me
Please Mr. President, say it isn't so
I don't have to sell my Cadillac that I just paid for

I talk to Mr. Getty
And I talk to Standard Oil
They say they got plenty
But they ain't gonna part for no more

Please Mr. Getty, I'm from Standard Oil
I'm down in Houston, where they got it all stored
I phone the coaster, the funk, and all the guard
We don't need none of those
We don't need any of that Arab stuff

Aw, please Mr. President, say it isn't so
I don't have to sell my Cadillac, I just paid for

My friend says the trouble is this country's too Goddamn big
Maybe we should pull it in from the ages a bit
Maybe that way we'll have so far to go

I called Mr. Getty, I even called-up Texaco, Texaco
They got plenty left, they got, plenty to go
Hey Mr. President, say it isn't so
Aw, Mr. President, say it isn't so

Why do I have to sell my Cadillac I just paid for, I just paid
for...


August 13th, 2005 12:49 PM
Bloozehound and they never released it either

'nuff said
August 13th, 2005 01:29 PM
sirmoonie
quote:
Bloozehound wrote:
I find it pretty gawdamned silly that mr coorperate tour, jetset boy himself Mick "one of the wealthiest men in UK" Jagger is writing songs bitching about the price of gas

I mean, when was the last time you think Mick pulled his black limousine up to the pump to GASS'r up


Fuel costs, as you know, are the top budget item in operating a corporate jet. Stones will spend incremental millions skying across U.S. and world for Bango.

Its all ball bearings these days, bloozie. Its all ball bearings.
August 13th, 2005 02:18 PM
Gazza
quote:
Bloozehound wrote:
and they never released it either

'nuff said



only because it was shit
August 13th, 2005 02:46 PM
Monkey Woman Welcome to "Mick Jagger"!

That's funny, isn't Petrol Gang a song from the '70s? When the oil started to skyrocket too... Mick is like any Western resident in that respect: concerned about his beloved car's fuel.

"Please Mr. Getty, I'm from Standard Oil
I'm down in Houston, where they got it all stored
I phone the coaster, the funk, and all the guard
We don't need none of those
We don't need any of that Arab stuff

Aw, please Mr. President, say it isn't so
I don't have to sell my Cadillac, I just paid for"
August 13th, 2005 03:16 PM
blackandblue
quote:
Gazza wrote:


only because it was shit



That's no reason for them not to release songs (see: Dirty Work)
August 13th, 2005 05:36 PM
The_Worst
quote:
Monkey Woman wrote:
Welcome to "Mick Jagger"!

That's funny, isn't Petrol Gang a song from the '70s? When the oil started to skyrocket too... Mick is like any Western resident in that respect: concerned about his beloved car's fuel.

"Please Mr. Getty, I'm from Standard Oil
I'm down in Houston, where they got it all stored
I phone the coaster, the funk, and all the guard
We don't need none of those
We don't need any of that Arab stuff

Aw, please Mr. President, say it isn't so
I don't have to sell my Cadillac, I just paid for"




See "A Gallon of Gas" by the Kinks!!!
August 13th, 2005 06:01 PM
FPM C10 I don't give a fuck what rich people have to say about gas - Mick Jagger OR George Bush. I just know that where I live it went up 15 cents a gallon overnight.



Evidently holding hands with the Saudis isn't Gittin' R Done. George had better start puttin' out.
[Edited by FPM C10]
August 13th, 2005 11:24 PM
glencar LOL It went up 2 cents around here.
August 13th, 2005 11:55 PM
lotsajizz 13 here in RI
August 14th, 2005 08:25 AM
corgi37 Bush is poison!

He holds the old towel heads hand, then a few weeks later, the old fucker dies!

Conspiracy! Conspiracy, i tells ya!
August 14th, 2005 08:28 AM
Monkey Woman You're having a blast here, corgi!
August 14th, 2005 09:31 AM
Mathijs The answer to why the US infaded Iraq is a matter of facts, and a matter of believe. First, the argument that the reason was to get rid of Saddam is bollocks. Yes, he was a dictator who killed a hundred thousand people, but there's plenty more dictators who do that but still know they won't be invaded by the US (Mugabe anyone? Sudan? Niger? North Korea?). Second, despite Saddam being a dictator, there was actual peace in Iraq, mainly due to one reason: Saddam wasn't religious, and he kept religion out of his politics. No, you better not be a Kurd in Iraq, but all the other religious groups (more than 35 in the Northern district alone) were in piece with each other. Third, Iraq was no thread to the world. As far as known now, Saddam did not have plans or weapons to attack the West, and wasn't even interested in supporting Al-Qaida (as Al-Qaida is based on religion and Saddam not). So concluding, Saddam's regime certainly was one that should be condemned in the strongest words, but if you want to invade, there's plenty of other countries that should be invaded before you invade Iraq.

But, Iraq has something that those other countries don't have: oil. I am a researcher for an American company who is the leading manufacturer of catalysts for the petro-chemical industry. Roughly, 60% of all the gasoline in this world has seen our catalysts. In our company, we have the following theory on gas prices and the US foreign politics. There's two reasons the oil price is so high: production is low mainy due to Iraq not producing enough, and the demand is high mainly due to the demand of China and the US. On China: China's ever increasing growth means it is keeping all its energy, for example in the form of steel: 70% of the world's steel comes from China, and China now needs it all for themselves. By doing so, the price of steel is five times as high as 2 years ago, and this has an enormous impact on the global market. As China suddenly demands more and more energy, the world's demand for energy has tripled in 5 years, skyrocketing all the prices.

Then the US. Western-Europe and the US have historically been the biggest consumers of energy. Now, the US's demand is the highest ever. While Western-Europe did start an energy saving campaign since the crisis in 1973 and managed to stall the consumption, the US kept using more and now uses 25% of the annual available energy in the world. The biggest users are the army, cars and air-conditioning. The Bush administration has decided that instead of launching a campaing to use less energy by, for example, not signing the Kyoto agreement, but instead it wants to control all energy needed in the long term. The US first gambled on the friendship with the Saoudi's. As long as your friends with them, you'll get all the oil you need. But, as history has shown, the Saoudi's aren't that friendly anymore towards the US for several reasons, the Israel connection being most important. The Saoudi's in fact are so unfriendly, they even support groups attacking US targets, like Osama's group. The US first installed Saddam in order to control both the oil flow and the threat that Iran imposed. Saddam turned out that he can't be trusted at all. Now, the best thing for the US to do was to invade Iraq and install an US-friendly administration with whom you can deal with. The US hasn't bought one drop crude oil more since the invasion, but the idea is long term. There's only one way to control oil: be on top of it.

The mistake the US made from the beginning was that when invading Iraq, you invade a Muslim country, with about 30 religious groups waiting for start the fight on power. The invasion now has turned into half a civil war, and becomes more uncrontrollable every day. As long as the situation doesn't calm down in Iraq, we will have more deaths in Iraq, and more attacks like the one in London and Madrid will follow.

Mathijs

August 14th, 2005 09:56 AM
Ten Thousand Motels We didn't "install" Saddam. Saddam was a Baathist. In the old days they wanted to move the arab world into socialism/ secularism, out of control on the Islamists.
August 14th, 2005 10:44 AM
Gazza
quote:
FPM C10 wrote:
I don't give a fuck what rich people have to say about gas - Mick Jagger OR George Bush. I just know that where I live it went up 15 cents a gallon overnight.



Blimey...has anyone blamed the Stones for that yet?
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