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| JaggerLips |
So this is a fan site for a rock and roll band so what, we can get political can't we?
After the latest of a long sting of terrorist attacks on our way of life in London I thought that it would be fitting that we have a topic that discusses terrorism in more detail.
It seems we have come to a point now where the whole of humanity has to look at itself as regards to the whys and werefores of the causes of terrorism.
The people behind MAKE POVERTY HISTORY and that ilk who genuinely wish to create a more civil and stable world should be commended for their efforts.
Relatated or unrelated the G8 summit did seem to bring about real decisions as regards to poverty in Africa and the implementation of universal health care.
Maybe this could be seen as a preventative measure for terrorism.
What we don't know is what causes people to become terrorism, is it just poverty? Is it so called anti-western feeling because they don't like the way we choose to live, in a free way we drink, smoke and are liberal when it comes to sex etc? Is that it? Is it religious related fundamentalism? Personally I feel these 'untermenschen' use religion as a means to an end, an excuse!
Anybody got any ideas of how to stop terrorism, feel free to post your messages here or simply view this as a food for thought. |
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| jb |
As someone who has lost a relative to terrorism, it is my sincere belief that there is no way to prevent it. This is not a situation like the cold war where the US/Russia were able to avoid nuclear holocaust b/c of fear of mutual destruction. In this age of terrorism, the terrorists are ready, willing, and able to sacrifice their lives for what they believe is the greater goal.
Israel, which has as good an intelligence agency(Mossad) as any in the world, is able to substantially reduce terror attacks by pre-emptive strikes. However, even in a country like Israel, with closed borders and constant diligence, it is impossible to stop 100%. Therefore , in an open society like US/Britain, is is nearly impossible to prevent the events of 9/11 and the tragic events of last week. Off course, through greter intelligence and security, we greatly have reduced the chances of another 9/11, but we are still vulnerable.
Thus, I surmise the best we can hope for is to contain and limiting the # of these horrific attacks. The terrorists are patient, and can wait for years to plan their attacks...only by infiltrating their sleeper cells can we prevent more attacks.
As for a a political solution, it seems unlikely. I imagine when we leave Iraq things will calm down there. However, if the ultimate goal is to wipe out the so-called infidels(Christians, Jews and other non-fundamentalist Islamasists) there seems very little hope .
[Edited by jb] |
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| Taptrick |
I agree with JB. Terrorism is not going anywhere. What is terrorism? I believe it is a military tactic often chosen by weaker forces that do not have significant tactical ability and/or can not win the sympathy of a crucial population (often their own population). That's what makes going to war with "terrorism" so difficult. A force doesn't typically declare war on a military startegy. A force usually fights a battle against an entity with a recognized identity. Fighting a war against terrorim? That's saying you are going to fight a war against a military tactic. That's like saying you are going to fight a war against dominant maeuvering, or preceision engagement, or flanking movements. But you can't ignore it or you send the message that there is no discouragement. What causes it? I believe its the same thing that causes poverty in much of the world. The same thing that causes religious persecution, the same thing that causes economic collapse. And its the same thing that will cause Live 8 to ultimately fail. You can't have governments that don't allow open markets; you can't have governments that don't allow free trade; you can't have governments that openly practice religious, gender, cultureal, and ethnic discrimination; you can't have governments that teach their children to hate, kill, and romanticize murder and suicide from preschool on. You can't have governments that engae in child slave labor. AS long as you poor money into these lands it going into a black hole with minimal impact.
As long as these governments remain in power terrorism will continue to grow. If you happen to be a sympathizer of any of the countries/entities/governments shown above, ask yourself this: why are people dying fleeing those countries but not dying to get into those countries. Maybe those fleeing and dying know something others don't. So it may sound harsh but I believe the answer is you have to accept terrorism and do your best to minimize it. It's not going anywhere until several dozen generations are raised in freedom worldwide. And even then you will still have 'true believers" (see Erice Hoffer) that could live in paradise and still find a cause to die for. That's what people that lack an identity and self esteem often do.
[Edited by Taptrick]
[Edited by Taptrick]
[Edited by Taptrick] |
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| Paul McCartney |
Buy My hit single
This is my right
A right given by God
To live a free life
To live in freedom
Talkin' about freedom
I'm talkin' 'bout freedom
I will fight
For the right
To live in freedom
Anyone tries to take it away
They'll have to answer
'Cause this is my right
I'm talkin' about freedom
Talkin' 'bout freedom
I will fight
For the right
To live in freedom
I'm talkin' 'bout freedom
I'm talkin' 'bout freedom
I will fight
For the right
To live in freedom
Everybody talkin' 'bout freedom
We're talkin' 'bout freedom
We will fight
For the right
To live in freedom
I'm talkin' 'bout freedom
Talkin' 'bout freedom
I will fight
For the right
To live in freedom
I'm talkin' 'bout freedom
I'm talkin' 'bout freedom
We will fight
For the right
To live in freedom
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| ListenToTheLion |
Why buy it? you can download this pulp for free! |
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| maumau |
how to stop terrorism is a hard question because of what jb said about their schedule and means
i do think that religion is not the core of it, maybe not an "excuse", maybe just a fuel to seduce young people in.
it is a fact that terrorist leaders are not poor people grown up in muslim villages, on the contrary they represent elite groups, they grew up in western countries and studied in out universities.
so they know how it works here, how much power and privileges rich people can achieve in our society too, but also how much more fragile this power and these privileges can be compared to their countries of origin, where society is infinetly more closed, classist and chauvinist than ours.
i think that ultimately what they fear is change, change in power (from the Egypt of Mubarak, to the Syria of Assad, from the Ayatollahs that rule over Iran to the king family of Saudi Arabia).
To the people in power in these countries our leaders look at the same time as associates in business and an insidious threat because they represent both a conglomerate of interests AND the idea of a free society.
i think that we should try to put more weight on the latter side of the balance and exchange our money and trade for their reforms and for more democracy in their politics.
i believe than more democracy equals less violence (more wealth, more rights, more responsability, more accountability)
we can't wipe violence out of this world but i think our experience tells us that the more a society is open (and democracy is the most open form of governance that we know at this point in history) the more violence is contained. |
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| JaggerLips |
maumau, Taptrick and jb, excellent posts!!!
It's good to see reasoned discussion on this highly topical subject.
Terrorism is like a disease, it can fester for ages then all of a sudden BANG it flares up and lets itself be known.
In the 'old days' wars used to be fought with nation states Vs other nation states. Today the war is against terrorism which truly is a form of globalisation it has transgressed from Burma to New York and all that in between.
Regime change is an option to those despot countries that terrorism are riddled in. Regime change has to come from within and not anyt outside influences, this doesn't seem to work. Say the Americans and the Brits go into Zimbabwe for instance and oust Mugabe then that just adds more fuel to the fire because they don't like it when we 'meddle' in other countries affairs because it's like us inflicting our values on everyone else and to hell whith what you think.
Trade sanctions are an idea but again that makes things worse because it's still us trying to control things artificially.
In my view the world was a much safer place when the Cold War was on, we had a clear distinction between friend and foe, Capitalism V Communism. Mind you Vietnam wasn't exactly safe now was it? But that's another subject that's too complex to delve into at this point.
I wish that we could talk to Bin Laden and ask him just exactly what it is he wants to achieve, or is it to achieve anything other than getting mass media attention, fightening people senseless and getting their kicks out of it whilst sitting back in their houses, villas, dens, hovels or whatever and having this rather guilty pleasure of knowing what they've done but never admitting to it because they can't be found. Is that it???
I don't wish to understand terrorists, they should all be sent for prison and the key thrown away. Capital punishment isn't the answer because then they'd be 'martyrd' wouldn't they?
Keep throwing in your 2 cents into this topic. |
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| Taptrick |
I think there is a solution. Earth must have freedom of religion, freedom of speech, separation of religion and government, freedom of movement, equal opportunity for all genders/cultures/ethnicities, enforced child labor and child soldier laws, and the right to own property/businesses without confiscatory tax rates. I actually do think this will come. I think it will come slowly from within those affected countries over 100-500 years as democracy and access to information spread. It could come quicker if the free world is forced to impose it. That could happen- people will only stand for death to a certain level. For example, if someone struck England every day for a month, England would take action against someone/somewhere. There could ultimately be some form of world war (some say we are in that now). I tend to think the slower several hundred years course is more realistic...but we shall see.
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| Taptrick |
By the way, I think the UN blew a golden opportunity at the end of WW2. I wish they had made Jerusalem the headquarters of the UN and made it a nuetral area showcasing all the world religions and especially the main three of Jerusalem. Its idealistic but imagine an Israel/Palestine/Jerusalem/ mideast area where jews, christians, and muslims lived together and thrived together because their land was a fabulous state-of-the art showcase for each of their religions. The UN would have functioned as the government and religion would be separated from the government by UN charter. Thousands of Palestinians, arabs, jews, christians all working in the UN headquarters in Palestine.
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| nankerphelge |
I am buying a hybrid car and going out to the Arab slums to see if I can be a Big Brother to some Khat-chewing guy wearing a black hood, burning my flag and chanting "death to all Zionits infidels"
We'll all be better off for it! |
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| JaggerLips |
quote:
Taptrick wrote:
By the way, I think the UN blew a golden opportunity at the end of WW2. I wish they had made Jerusalem the headquarters of the UN and made it a nuetral area showcasing all the world religions and especially the main three of Jerusalem. Its idealistic but imagine an Israel/Palestine/Jerusalem/ mideast area where jews, christians, and muslims lived together and thrived together because their land was a fabulous state-of-the art showcase for each of their religions. The UN would have functioned as the government and religion would be separated from the government by UN charter. Thousands of Palestinians, arabs, jews, christians all working in the UN headquarters in Palestine.
I LOVE IT!!!! It's idealistic but so what, I think that idea could have worked.....to an extent mind!
Taptrick have my children LOL |
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| Gazza |
quote:
JaggerLips wrote:
It's good to see reasoned discussion on this highly topical subject.
it won't last long.... |
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| JaggerLips |
quote:
Gazza wrote:
it won't last long....
Yes it didn't last, Nanky just posted! |
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| maumau |
i think i live in the same idealsphere as you taptrick
where i live, unfortunately, people is divided between those who want to wipe out of the world the fu§#ing muslism and those who chant "peace! peace!" not knowing, i think both, what they're talking about. and so are the leaders.
i think that we should enhance our "weapons of mass attraction" and help those who fight for freedom inside these countries as a counterbalance to terrorist proselitism.
war, i think, is not to be ruled out as a taboo. but i think it needs to be used more wisely, that is more effectively.
the problem here i think is that our leaders often share the same "fear of change" as their opposed ones.
war, under these circumstances, can be the very big mess that changes nothing. |
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| JaggerLips |
To coin a cliche
ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!
We need to understand each other more than anything and to accept people's religious beliefs and cultures etc and start living as a human race. Now it's still a them and us mentality. In America there was a sense of them and us with white and black people. Black people were opressed, they could only sit on a certain part of a bus or walk on one side of the street etc. That's gone and now racism in America is declining with regards to whites on blacks.
Treating people with respect is the key.
My mother told me as a child to treat others how you wish to be treated yourself.
Gee I'm getting a bit preachy ain't I? |
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| nankerphelge |
What, you don't like my idea?
Howe about this -- a solar powered "hug-bot" to go out into the world and embrace all those wacky, mad-cap members of Hezzbollah and Islamic Jihad!!
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| Maxlugar |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
What, you don't like my idea?
Howe about this -- a solar powered "hug-bot" to go out into the world and embrace all those wacky, mad-cap members of Hezzbollah and Islamic Jihad!!
Solar powered Hug-Bot!!!!
LOL!!!! That's the best thing I've read all year.
Oh Nanky! You is BAD!!! |
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| nankerphelge |
Terrorists need lovin' too Max.!
That and some spent nuclear fuel rods for a dirty bomb they are working on... |
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| JaggerLips |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
What, you don't like my idea?
Howe about this -- a solar powered "hug-bot" to go out into the world and embrace all those wacky, mad-cap members of Hezzbollah and Islamic Jihad!!
Pray do tell, what is a hug-bot? |
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| JaggerLips |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
Terrorists need lovin' too Max.!
That and some spent nuclear fuel rods for a dirty bomb they are working on...
Now i get the hug bot thing! |
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| nankerphelge |
Pretty soon you'll probably also get the fact that terrorists want our death -- not our understanding! |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
The beatitudes are found at Matthew 5: 3-12
Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall possess the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice,
for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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| nankerphelge |
There are similar verses in the Koran like:
If only those stupid infidels of the west would come up with some alternative energy solutions so they wouldn't be so dependent on Allah's Oil Fields and maybe put up a "Suggestion" box in Tel Aviv where we could submit our greivances and then we could all just get along and eat Smores and shit!!
Don't quote me on that....
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:
If only those stupid infidels of the west would come up with some alternative energy solutions so they wouldn't be so dependent on Allah's Oil Fields.....
Big Oil wouldn't like that. |
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| maumau |
ok
gazza prophecy has been fulfilled
have a nice thread |
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| jb |
It appears that we all agree that terrorism is not going to stop, but disagree on the means to obviate it. Our friends on the right beleieve in pre-emtive strikes and or expanding the war on terror. Our friends on the left feel only through engagement and political means, can we achieve a solution. I trust neither side is naieve enough to think that only "their" way alone will solve the problem.
Looking back, I reluctantly have to say I was wrong about going into Iraq. My initial support was based more on emotion then on the facts. The results, IMO, have been devastating in terms of loss of life,the post war insurgency which was totally miscalculated , and thefact there were no WMD's-the reason we obstensiby went in. Moreover, it appears that Iraq has become a significant training ground for Al-Queda. Saddam was a monster, and I hope he is hung by his feet, but as we found out, no WMD's and Iraq certainly was not a safehaven for AL-Queda before the invasion.
I think we must focus our attention on finishing the job in Afghnastan, capture Bin-laden, infiltrate the sleeper cells throughout the world, amd keep a close on Iran, N. Korea(who did come back to the negotiating table) and Syria.
[Edited by jb] |
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| nankerphelge |
Maumau, did you know that Al Queda is actively recruiting middle-class professional Muslims attending Western Universities!!
Amazing given that poverty and opression are typically not associated with graduate engineering students!
Could calculus be the true cause of Islamic fundamentalism??
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| telecaster |
Christ jb, you of all people!
You aren't glad that 10 millions Iraqs kids are NOW NOT being taught to kill Israelis and that Israel must be destroyed at all costs?
The vast majority of people in Iraq don't know there are other planets or things called "oceans" and can't do math. Why?
Because all Saddam wanted them to learn was how to hate Israel and the west from birth and that Israel must be destroyed from the face of the earth
Now that will all change
As did Saddam paying $25,000 for each PLO suicide bomber in Israel
Sometimes jb you amaze me. I guess this is why we have wars every 20 years. Some people have short memories
Enjoy the sunroof in your BMW today as your drive to the Synagogue. Or are you driving the Porsche? Or does your wife have the kids in the Mercedes today?
[Edited by telecaster] |
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| nankerphelge |
Tele, I am thinking of changing my name to Ali Ali Oxenfree.
I am in touch with my inner Muslim... |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
quote:
telecaster wrote:
The vast majority of people in Iraq don't know there are other planets or things called "oceans" and can't do math.
NOW THAT IS FUCKING BULLSHIT.
ABSOLUTE FUCKING BULLSHIT.
If you had ever done your fucking homework you'd KNOW THAT Iraq is quite well educated and advanced.
[Edited by Ten Thousand Motels] |
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