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| glencar |
Well, you guys don't have the death penalty but we in America will be glad to take them off your hands. National news tonight said how we in NYC area actually have better security on our trains. But I think we really need to start tightening up our borders.
[Edited by glencar] |
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| scratched |
Well said Voodoo Scrounge. Whilst reading your post, I imagined an orchestral 'Land Of Hope And Glory' swelling up around me as I read the last few lines! I agree, we have probably been paying these evil bastards' rent, council tax and god knows what else while they've been plotting this whole mess. That to me is fucked up.
Yesterday was a head fuck and I've still not managed to reconcile it yet. There's a weird sense of calm in London today, probably a mixture of shock and dogged determination not to let them fuck us over. I got on a bus earlier - I didn't have to but just felt like I needed to. Planning to go on the tube later if I can find a bit that's open!
[Edited by scratched] |
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| Voodoo Scrounge |
Thats the spirit
As MaxLugar said
Im just waiting for all the British flag burning in the East to start. That will really boil my blood. |
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| FotiniD |
I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but quite many of them.
Just my two cents here.
I consider yesterday's terrorist act appalling, dreadful and totally cowardish by all means. There is just no ideology, religious belief, movement or anything in the world that can justify killing innocent people on their way to work.
So having made this clear, I would just like to say that imo hatred, "kill-all-Arabs" syndromes and "an eye for an eye" behaviors are certainly not the best way to deal with the situation. Yes, we have a downright crime here, but in order to prevent it from being repeated and in order to break the vicious circle, I think we must understand the rationale of the attacks. And by making new wars or blaming the "bad" Muslims for it is certainly not going to change things. It's going to make things easier for politicians of course, to justify their acts, but other than that really...
The countries targeted so far (USA, UK, Spain) are countries that expressed (through their politicians / politics of course) their approval of bombing Afghanistan or Iraq etc. I'm just saying that this whole repeated violence can only bring about more violence. I'm also saying that wars don't happen between good guys and bad guys or for the sake of ideals; their motivation is always (or at least in our days) purely financial/political. So blaming it on the bad guys is just going to repeat this stupidity and more innocent people are going to get killed - and I don't care if they're English, Americans, Iraqis or whatever for that matter. They haven't done anything to deserve being hit with a bomb on the head while going to school or taking the Tube.
Just my opinion here, hope I made myself clear enough. |
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| Voodoo Scrounge |
An eye for an eye. |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
Voodoo Scrounge wrote:
An eye for an eye.
Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion and I can understand how you must be feeling, but "an eye for an eye" never did anything in the past and I don't think it will now.
We're just going over and over the same situation. |
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| lotsajizz |
well, it's too late to undo the past, but this all goes back to the West's decision to pick sides in stupid Asiatic tribal wars.....
keep the fuckin' oil flowin' and our borders closed, after that leave it themselves to solve |
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| Jumping Jack |
Excuse me, but the US was attacked BEFORE expressing approval for bombing Afganistan.
Appeasement didn't work against the Nazis and won't work against Islamic extremists who have no regard for human life. Those who apologize for them, particularly the media and elected officials, are part of the problem.
How did the the Mayor of London get elected with his record of appeasement and long record of ignoring groups threatening to do exactly what they did? Will he be held accountible in the next election?
Has everyone forgotten about the riacin? Does anyone seriously believe that these terrorists wouldn't use more effective weapons if they had them? Must the world wait for tens of thousands to be killed and maimed before there is more international cooperation and action taken?
Will the people of Europe finally learn who the bad guys are?
Today's question is do the Brits have more character and resolve than the Spainish, French and Germans? |
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| blackandblue |
quote:
FotiniD wrote:
I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but quite many of them.
Just my two cents here.
I consider yesterday's terrorist act appalling, dreadful and totally cowardish by all means. There is just no ideology, religious belief, movement or anything in the world that can justify killing innocent people on their way to work.
So having made this clear, I would just like to say that imo hatred, "kill-all-Arabs" syndromes and "an eye for an eye" behaviors are certainly not the best way to deal with the situation. Yes, we have a downright crime here, but in order to prevent it from being repeated and in order to break the vicious circle, I think we must understand the rationale of the attacks. And by making new wars or blaming the "bad" Muslims for it is certainly not going to change things. It's going to make things easier for politicians of course, to justify their acts, but other than that really...
The countries targeted so far (USA, UK, Spain) are countries that expressed (through their politicians / politics of course) their approval of bombing Afghanistan or Iraq etc. I'm just saying that this whole repeated violence can only bring about more violence. I'm also saying that wars don't happen between good guys and bad guys or for the sake of ideals; their motivation is always (or at least in our days) purely financial/political. So blaming it on the bad guys is just going to repeat this stupidity and more innocent people are going to get killed - and I don't care if they're English, Americans, Iraqis or whatever for that matter. They haven't done anything to deserve being hit with a bomb on the head while going to school or taking the Tube.
Just my opinion here, hope I made myself clear enough.
What kind of solution do you suggest? It is very easy to analyse these problems in your easy chair... |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
blackandblue wrote:
What kind of solution do you suggest? It is very easy to analyse these problems in your easy chair...
Actually, my chair is rather uncomfortable.
Seriously now, terrorism is an issue that doesn't affect a specific region - it affects everyone. So I have no feeling I'm sitting on an easy chair. I wouldn't bother. But even if this doesn't happen to my country, I don't feel comfortable watching reports of people being killed.
Secondly, I'm not a politician and it's not up to me to offer the solution. But it is clear to me that "eye-for-an-eye" attitudes can only aggravate the situation instead of solving the problem. You don't need a degree in politics to understand that.
What I think might possibly help would be for countries to quit cleverly covered imperialistic wars, for starters. |
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| blackandblue |
Sorry for asking. Maybe it's not the right time looking for solutions. People are just angry and only want to express their emotions. Very understandable. |
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| blackandblue |
Is that Finsbury Park mosque still open? |
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| lotsajizz |
quote:
Jumping Jack wrote:
Today's question is do the Brits have more character and resolve than the Spainish, French and Germans?
Can you please explain the biolgical or sociological bases for such an assertion? The Spaniards have killed more Muslims in combat than all the rest put together. Walk a mile in THEIR shoes before condeming.....
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| lotsajizz |
quote:
Jumping Jack wrote:
Excuse me, but the US was attacked BEFORE expressing approval for bombing Afganistan.
Wrong timeline. The picking sides in West Asia's tribal wars began decades ago. And was ALWAYS a mistake. Too late to undo now.....nothing left but a Crusade now |
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| Voodoo Scrounge |
I for one will back any military action taken against ANY country proved to be involved in terror attacks.
Blow the fuckers sky high! |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
Voodoo Scrounge wrote:
I for one will back any military action taken against ANY country proved to be involved in terror attacks.
Blow the fuckers sky high!
That led me to two questions:
1. How can anyone prove that a certain country was responsible for the terror attacks? Would you trust what we're told anyway?
2. When a terroristic group makes an attack, why should the whole country be held responsible for it (unless there's support from the government)? |
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| Monkey Woman |
It's certainly too early to think about solutions, apart for better security cooperation in all democratic countries.
Right now, people just want to express their anger and pain. Very understandable, especially from citizens of recently bombed countries. But at least we should try and not brand "terrorists", "monsters" or "cowards" any single nation, religion or race!
The bastards responsible for these attacks, as for the ones in NYC, Madrid, Bali, Morocco or Istambul are religious and political fanatics, not just any ordinary Arab or Muslim. Standing together is what we need, not pointing fingers and staying each in our corners.
Jumping Jack, you're fond of badmouthing the French, German and Spaniards, as much as the Muslims, but do you know that the Arab League an the Palestinian Authority condemned in very strong terms yesterday's attack? Do you know that respected Muslim religious authorities condemned it too as contrary to the true spirit of Islam?
Do you know that there's been a French military force in Afghanistan since 3 years, first fighting alongside the American and British and now trying to maintain peace in that dangerous country? Do you know that even as Rumsfeld was mounting a smear campaing against France, the CIA and French intelligence agency continued to work together with a very discreet but efficient team to pool information and resources against international terrorism?
Because that's the worst of the threat today: fundamentalist islamic terrorism is not just one country, but a widespread network of little semi-independant groups in many countries in the world, in the Third World as well in our Western industrialized countries.
Look at September 11, 2001. Some of the suicide bombers inspired by Al-Qaeda lived for years in the USA before mounting the attacks. Many peaceful Muslims have been living in the Western world for longer than that and would never have dreamed of murdering anyone for their beliefs or way of life! Only fanatics do that. This is a clash of ideologies rather than civilizations.
As in the Cold War, we can hope to gain the advantage against these groups with better intelligence, for instance by infiltrating these groups to be forewarned when an attack is going to take place. Several attacks have been averted already by the UK police before this one. And the same was true in France and Germany.
We also need better education and dialogue between ethnic and religious groups. In 2001, we saw with horror that in many Muslim countries, the people in the streed cheered the attacks on WTC. Yes, the Western countries were seen by them t have "picked sides" in Middle-East wars. Not that it excused an bloodbath in a peaceful city in the least, of course! But since then, more and more decent ordinary Muslim people grew precisely to understand that the end doesn't justify the means. They see that the Al-Qaeda fanatics targeted all who don't follow their narrow, archaic, bloodthirsty brand of religion. They are afraid of Al-Qaeda too.
After the bombings in the Jewish quarter of Istambul, the Muslim Turks expressed solidary with the Jewish victims. In Madrid, the leaders of the Muslim community in Spain condemned it too. They don't a clash of civilization any more than we want it. And that's one glimmer of hope I can see today: that all decent, peaceful people stand together, regardless of race, nationality or religion, to deny the terrorists any kind of victory.
The Londoners, after the Spanish and New-Yorkers, show us the way: acting with dignity, resuming life, "business as usual", as soon as possible. Refusing lies and falsehoods, because they do more harm than good in the long run. Cooperating in gathering information at acting on it. Controlling the comings and goings of Islamic activists and preventing them to spread hate propaganda. Acting at international level to cut the fundings for terrorism (dirty money from drugs or weapons trade helps finance Al-Qaeda). Helping the countries in the East and elsewhere who want to go toward democracy, religious tolerance and economic development. That's a huge agenda, and the more we do on it, the better we'll fare for the future. |
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| justforyou |
quote:
Voodoo Scrounge wrote:
I for one will back any military action taken against ANY country proved to be involved in terror attacks.
Blow the fuckers sky high!
Remember it is not countries that have planned and executed these attacks, but a group motivated by suffering, which unfortunately, we have been helping to raise.
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| BILL PERKS |
TONY BLAIR IS BUSH'S PUPPET-HE'LL DO WHAT BUSH TELLS HIM TO. |
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| blackandblue |
quote:
BILL PERKS wrote:
TONY BLAIR IS BUSH'S PUPPET-HE'LL DO WHAT BUSH TELLS HIM TO.
So what? |
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| nankerphelge |
There are plenty of countries that sponsor this brand of Islam, don't kid yourself. Saudi Arabia funded this kind of crap for years -- not until 9/11 did it start to get exposed.
Iran and Syria are both state sponsors of Islamic fundamentalism -- I mean seriously, you won't find a sign at the border "Welcome to Iran, home of the suicide bomber" -- but just take a look at who is funding all this crap -- Iran pays how much to the family of a "martyr"
Keep on apologizing for them, though.
That'll work...
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| FotiniD |
quote:
justforyou wrote:
Remember it is not countries that have planned and executed these attacks, but a group motivated by suffering, which unfortunately, we have been helping to raise.
Exactly. The sooner we come to realize that, the closer we are to a solution. |
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| telecaster |
All the patents for all the Middle East Arab countries COMBINED is half of South Korea's over the last 15 yrs
The GDP of all Arab countries COMBINED outside of oil is less than Norway
The unemployment rate is almost 50% in the Arab world
They are taught to hate anyone that isn't Muslim from birth
Michael Shumacher (German race car driver) and a couple of Hollywood stars donated almost the same amount to tsunami
relief as all Muslim countries COMBINED
It ain't the US or the Wests fault
It is complete and total failure of the Muslim world
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| Maxlugar |
quote:
FotiniD wrote:
Exactly. The sooner we come to realize that, the closer we are to a solution.
So you are on board with spreading democracy to these countries to help make a better life for them in the long run, right?
Yeah, we aligned ourselves with some pretty bad characters during the cold war. But at the time we had a bigger fish to fry in the Soviet Union. The soviets are gone and we must now transform that whole area. Bush is well on the way to doing that. |
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| Jumacfly |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
Bush is well on the way to doing that.
and he does it well...world is a paradise right now! |
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| Maxlugar |
quote:
Jumacfly wrote:
and he does it well...world is a paradise right now!
Oh stop with the Strawmen.
At least you aint speaking German or Russian there, Frenchie.
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| FotiniD |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
So you are on board with spreading democracy to these countries to help make a better life for them in the long run, right?
Yeah, we aligned ourselves with some pretty bad characters during the cold war. But at the time we had a bigger fish to fry in the Soviet Union. The soviets are gone and we must now transform that whole area. Bush is well on the way to doing that.
Spreading democracy = bombing civilians?
Innovative way. Yes, Julian's right, the world is like an idylic Eden landscape.
Anyway, let's get back to music cause I see where all this is heading, we're all going to end up arguing and finally agree to disagree - we might as well do it now. |
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| Maxlugar |
[quote]FotiniD wrote:
Spreading democracy = bombing civilians?
Civilians are targeted by the terrorists.
Civilians are hit by accident by the West.
We put our soldiers at a great risk to make sure we minimize civilian casualties.
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| nankerphelge |
Bombing civilians, last I checked, was the terrorists' preferred way of waging war. See London 7/7/05.
The U.S. has been bombing the bad guys -- or at least trying to. Unfortunately, these bad guys, in addition to bombing civilians around the world, also hide behind them. Part of the dramatic courage shown by these "people".
[Edited by nankerphelge] |
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| Jumacfly |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
Oh stop with the Strawmen.
At least you aint speaking German or Russian there, Frenchie.
where is your legendary sense of humor?? may be you throw it with your last bottle ??
poor guy! |
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