|
|
| Honky Tonk Man |
Wow Prodigal Son, thanks for such a great response! You always were a great poster. It’s a shame we don't get to read your expert insights more often.
I'm really digging my Motown at the moment. My dad has some of the early Motown Best Of's on vinyl. I'm going to dig them out and see what else I like.
I plan to purchase some of Stevie Wonders cd's and I MUST hear more of The Supremes. They are my absolute favourite.
|
|
|
| FPM C10 |
quote:
Honky Tonk Man wrote:
Wow Prodigal Son, thanks for such a great response! You always were a great poster. It’s a shame we don't get to read your expert insights more often.
Yes, excellent overview, and what a great thread this is! If for no other reason than when you read through it your brain starts playing these great songs, and then instead of something lame being stuck in your head all day, you've got something fantastic!
The Four Tops "Reach Out I'll Be There" is a good example of a song with the "lead" tambourine I was talking about. It's NOT really a lead instrument but it's such a vital part of the song. Haven't watched "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" for awhile so I can't recall the name of the Funk Brother who played the tambourine, but he was a GENIUS. He's what Ray Cooper WISHES he was! |
|
|
| Honky Tonk Man |
quote:
FPM C10 wrote:
Yes, excellent overview, and what a great thread this is! If for no other reason than when you read through it your brain starts playing these great songs, and then instead of something lame being stuck in your head all day, you've got something fantastic!
The Four Tops "Reach Out I'll Be There" is a good example of a song with the "lead" tambourine I was talking about. It's NOT really a lead instrument but it's such a vital part of the song. Haven't watched "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" for awhile so I can't recall the name of the Funk Brother who played the tambourine, but he was a GENIUS. He's what Ray Cooper WISHES he was!
FPM, I've been taking note about what you were saying earlier about the fantastic bass lines on the old Motown records. They are indeed fantastic and innovating. One of my favourite examples is on the Diana Ross And Te Supremes number, Reflections.
I don't know if you personally agree with my opinion here, but I can clearly understand why many people refer to Motown as the first "Dance" music. It's not so much to do with the fact that it was the music being played in clubs at the time, but more to do with the bass!
|
|
|
| FPM C10 |
quote:
Honky Tonk Man wrote:
FPM, I've been taking note about what you were saying earlier about the fantastic bass lines on the old Motown records. They are indeed fantastic and innovating. One of my favourite examples is on the Diana Ross And The Supremes number, Reflections.
I don't know if you personally agree with my opinion here, but I can clearly understand why many people refer to Motown as the first "Dance" music. It's not so much to do with the fact that it was the music being played in clubs at the time, but more to do with the bass!
I just can't say enough good things about the golden ago of Motown, except perhaps for the fact that the backup musicians were completely unknown to the public. Of course that was the way things were done in music for a long time. So I (along with a lot of other people) tend to give James Jamerson all the credit for every bassline in every Motown song, when actually there were a couple of other guys who were also great. But he was definitely a genius (I'm throwing that word around a lot but I think it's accurate)- I love the story in "Standing in the Shadows" about the Funk Brothers flying to England in the 60s and being met at the airport by The James Jamerson Fan Club. However, Jamerson wasn't along for that tour, so the guys who were decided that one of them would pretend to be Jamerson, and went out to meet them. And although these folks knew every note that James played, they had no idea what he looked like, and probably didn't realize the ruse until the movie came out!
Jamerson's genius lay in combining the rhythm role that bass had always fulfilled - you're right, the bass is what people dance to in Motown records - with melodic lines that formed the bottom of the incredible symphonic layers of Motown songs. And these songs sound like they were recorded in the upper chambers of Heaven on a 64-track recording deck, when they were actually put down live on 2 or 4 tracks in a dank Detroit basement.
Absolutely mind-boggling stuff. Why it had to end is a mystery to me - why can't anyone do this today? There's nothing out there that sounds remotely like this stuff, and hasn't been for years! |
|
|
| Voodoo Scrounge |
I am a big Isley Brother fan. This old Heart of Mine is a classic. Talking of backing musicians. Jimi Hendrix used to play with the Isley Brothers.
|
|
|
| Gazza |
quote:
Voodoo Scrounge wrote:
I am a big Isley Brother fan. This old Heart of Mine is a classic.
one of my top five songs of all time, sir. Good choice. |
|
|
| Voodoo Scrounge |
Truly tremendous. Rod Stewart ruined it in the 80s.
I thought the Stones version of the Ojays "love train" was ok.
What say you? |
|
|
| FPM C10 |
quote:
Voodoo Scrounge wrote:
I thought the Stones version of the Ojays "love train" was ok.
What say you?
Big thumbs up from me. It made me laugh and dance and just generally feel great when I saw them play it. At first I was like "What the....????" but after a few seconds I was groovin'.
That's what I love about the Stones...they can play something that sounds like the friggin' apocalypse (Midnight Rambler or Paint it Black or Gimme Shelter) and then turn around and be the greatest party band in the world! |
|
|
| glencar |
Love Train was fantastic. We need some more of that sort of thing on this new tour. |
|
|
| texile |
this old heart of mine with that great opening....
except when they play it on the radio - they talk over the beginning.
the jackson 5 - say want you want but those kids were incredible.
again the bass line on i want you back and the love you save........was this the motown house band or the jacksons?
tears of a clown has the greatest snakeline bass and bottom-driving sound EVER.......and it's best in mono;
the diversity of motown was amazing:
compare the down and dirty drum, bass and vocals on i can't get next to you to the sheer beauty of just my imagination or since i lost my baby -
the o'jays, now that's another story - early 70s philly soul........that's heaven to me.
|
|
|
| texile |
shit i forgot, papa was a rolling stones, the temps last glory and what an ending..........they just moved right into that gritty, funky 70s soul groove.
i could go on and on about soul music.
other bands appreciated soul, but the the stones(especially mick and keith) really absorbed it like no one else and that's what made them unique. |
|
|
| Gazza |
quote:
Voodoo Scrounge wrote:
Truly tremendous. Rod Stewart ruined it in the 80s.
I thought the Stones version of the Ojays "love train" was ok.
What say you?
I loved it. It was great fun. The Stones do those soul covers magnificently. That night at the Astoria when they did about five of them back to back (Aint too proud to beg/ Going to a go go, etc) was one of the highlights of all the shows I've been to down the years.
The "Love train" thing divided a few people, though. A mate of mine was over from England at MSG in a $350 seat and some knuckledragger beside him (who presumably had paid the same amount) went apeshit when they played "love train" and insisted "I aint here to listen to someone sing about love" and walked out! |
|
|
| Gazza |
quote:
texile wrote:
shit i forgot, papa was a rolling stones, the temps last glory and what an ending..........they just moved right into that gritty, funky 70s soul groove.
i could go on and on about soul music.
other bands appreciated soul, but the the stones(especially mick and keith) really absorbed it like no one else and that's what made them unique.
I thought they still did some great stuff after that. Law of The Land and Masterpiece are great songs.
And "Power" is a much overlooked gem. Big Melvin is on incredible form on that one. |
|
|
| texile |
i tend to think of imagination and papa as their last big things because stax/volt and hi were making their mark by 71, but you're right.........
|
|
|
| Prodigal Son |
BTW, the tambourine guy was Jack Ashford. He's still alive and kicking unlike old drummers Uriel Jones and Benny Benjamin and Jamerson. The guy is still my no. 1 fave bass player and a close 2nd is the Ox. Berry Gordy deserves a lot of credit for getting Motown to be the amazing success story it was (starting on an $800 loan). But the way it folded up was pretty sucky.
Because some key writers (most notably Holland-Dozier-Holland who pumped out an ungodly amount of awesome songs if you look it up) left in the late 60s, Motown was falling behind the times a bit. Norman Whitfield capitalized on the psychedelic era and bands like Sly and the Family Stone and his genius created some truly epic songs with the Tempts, etc. (I've always wanted to get my hands on the full 11-minute version of "Papa"). But other than him, no songwriter could do what H-D-H and Smokey had done in the 60s. Even Smokey had dried up ("Tears of a Clown" was a big hit but was written and recorded in 1967, music composed by Stevie Wonder BTW while Smokey wrote the lyrics).
The last great year for Motown was probably 1970, while 1971 and 1972 were very good, 1973 was alright and 1974 was a real low point and the label never recovered. You see, due to changing times and his own habitance, Gordy wanted to move the company out to Los Angeles. Some acts, notably the Jackson 5, lived and recorded out there too with Motown's L.A. musicians (although Jamerson played on a few tracks with them). Plus, Gordy wanted to get into movies and became much too preoccupied with it and making Diana Ross a movie star. Because of his attention on that aspect, the music suffered as all the big acts from the 60s (except Diana, Stevie and Marvin) were gone by 1976.
The Funk Bros. were broken apart when Motown moved to L.A. in spring 1972. Some moved out to L.A. but Motown never had a building with BOTH its heardquarters and studios. It never really had a set studio or solid roster of session musicians in Los Angeles. With this misdirection, it all had to come apart. Being out in Hollywood screwed up the stability as well. It's no wonder guys like Smokey and Marvin developed addictions to cocaine in this time period. Hell, and Rick James. Man, there must have been some serious drug taking going on in comparision to the innocent days in Detroit.
Anyway, Motown's tendency to tour the hell out of everyone as well as shaft some on royalties led to a lot of tragedy. Lots of movers and shakers are gone today. Honky Tonk Man, believe it or not, of the five original Temptations, all but one are dead (Otis Williams). David Ruffin (the first lead singer) was a crackhead and died of an OD in 1991, Eddie Kendricks (the falsetto guy) died of lung cancer in 1992, Melvin Franklin (the deep-voiced one) died of a heart attack resulting from him being stricken with some disorder (perhaps arthrytis?) in 1995 and Paul Williams most tragically, after being kicked out in 1971 for his alcoholism, committed suicide in 1973.
In addition, Ronald White of the Miracles died a few years ago, Lawrence Payton of the 4 Tops as well in 1997, Florence Ballard in 1976 (living on welfare and with many substance problems), Marvin Gaye in 1984 when his father shot him over an argument over his drug problems, Mary Wells (whose big hit was "My Guy") died in 1992 of throat cancer, Benny Benjamin (the first drummer) died in a car crash in 1967 while the bassist Jamerson died in 1982. Rick James is dead too as we all know. There are many others. Motown is such an intriguing story to me and I read up about it a lot when I was into the music big time a few years ago. |
|
|
| FPM C10 |
quote:
Prodigal Son wrote:
BTW, the tambourine guy was Jack Ashford.
Thanks - for that tidbit, and for all of your thoughts on the subject. This has been my favorite thread in a long time.
The great James Jamerson |
|
|
| texile |
berry gordy was a greedy fuck....
you're right - moving to LA was the death knell for motown.....
after they lost marvin, stevie and the jacksons were all that was left throughout the 70s. |
|
|
| Gazza |
on a side note, surely the Four Tops must have had the longest unchanged line up in musical history - I think they had the same four guys from 1955 until Payton died in 1997 |
|
|
| Lord Homosex |
I tell you guys hands down the best Motown disc out there is a show that has become hard to find. It's only on vynil now. The Four Tops Live at the old Roostertail in Detroit. It must be from 65 or 66. The music makes me cry every time I hear it and I don't choke up easily. The Tops do a version of "I left my heart in San Francisco" that is just INCREDIBLE! This is Live and the harmonies are so beautiful. I love that tune so much by them. The other heart stopper is "Ask The Lonely" where Levi Stubbs lays it down. The album is just so hard to find. It goes for about $100 on ebay now. If ANYONE has a copy of it let me know because I nedd a new copy on tape, CDR on vynil.
Another excellent show is The Temps and Supremes together live in about 65 or 66. It's the Temps songs that make it. Their version of "I'm Losing You" brings down the house. So HOT! |
|
|
| texile |
i think i got that! found it in a thrift store a long long time ago when i was obsessed with vintage soul on vinyl...
does it have a kickass version of it's not unusual?
|
|
|
| stonedinaustralia |
yes a great thread
despite jackos fall from grace - "i want you back" is brilliant
and while it's not strictly Motown i've always loved marvin's "sexual healing" - no one can sing the word "baby" the way he does - one of the best tracks of the '80's |
|
|
| Nasty Habits |
The Four Tops Live album from '66 does indeed have a kickass It's Not Unusual on it.
The Rolling Stones totally tore up Love Train. It was one of the absolute highlights of the shows I saw and an inspired choice.
I would extend the Norman Whitfield productions on the Temptations that are of interest to include "Zoom". I think that's a fascinating piece of sophistofunk, although sophistofunk may be a contridiction in terms. Regardless, those mid 70s Temps albums come dangerously close to being Whitfield albums with the Temps as his "stand ins" rather than true Temptations albums. Greatest Hits Vol. 2 is an absolute mofo, though.
I really like some of Edwin Starr's Motown work, and I don't think he's come up in this thread. The obvious one is "War", but beyond that Springstillated cliché there's also the great Agent Double O Soul, 25 Miles, and more.
Another group that has yet to see mention is the marvellous Contours. Although their sound is MUCH more a traditional R&B Detroit grease slant than the genius pop arrangements of what people think of when they think about Motown, the Contours give Motown some grit-cred in a big way. Do You Love Me was their big hit, but First I Look at the Purse is a barn burning song, as is Whole Lotta Woman and Don't Let Her Be Your Baby.
My favorite Gladys Knight and the Pips song is their rollercoaster assault on "End of the Road". Nearly everybody in the Motown stable tried to do something with this song but Gladys hits it out of the park.
Anybody ever heard the Isley Brothers song "Take Some Time Out for Love"? One of the most exciting songs ever.
Any serious Motown thread on a Stones board would have to include "Leavin' Here", by Eddie Holland - a song that must have been MUCH bigger in the UK than it was in the US - more British groups have covered that song than almost any other Motown number, but my favorite version is by the Birds, featuring the excellent guitar sounds of our own dear Ronnie Woodbird.
Motown does rule and this IS a great thread. |
|
|
| Mr Jimmy |
Great thread people! Thanks for the Motown tidbits that are bringing back a flood of listening memories from when I was a very, very young boy... climbing the tree at the back of my school yard and cranking up my beat-up "AM transistor radio" during recess. When I finally got a new one for Christmas, it was one of those Panasonic red-plastic-balls on a chrome-ball-chain. Remember those things? The radios were starting to look different and the music coming out of them was changing as well... good thing the Stones held onto some of the soul. For some reason, Papa Was a Rollin' Stone always scared the shit out of me when I was a kid. It really grooved but even to this day I find it spooky/eerie... a very powerful song. And yes, seeing them perform Love Train was a definite highlight for me during the Licks Tour. Fuck the knuckle draggers of the world! |
|
|
| texile |
i just heard papa was a rolling stone on my car radio....i had to take the long way home so i could finish it - i love that part..'papa was a rolling stones...dadgummet!'....
i do believe -IMO - it is quite possibly the greatest motown production ever.......norman whitfield brought that urban grit that hadn't been there before...and that guitar is so funky - this is the last incarnation of the funk brothers isn't it?
*to me - stevie was a thing unto himself...i don't think of him as motown;
and yes, stoned - i want you back is fantastic - but the love you save is perfection. |
|
|
| Honky Tonk Man |
This thread has been an absolute blast and I’ve learnt so much from it!
I wasn't actually aware that Love Train was a Motown song. I though the Stones rendition on the last tour was excellent and it was a real joy to hear at the Wembley Arena show in 2003.
Maybe I'll get into Stax next and we can start a thread on that label!
|
|
|
| FPM C10 |
quote:
Honky Tonk Man wrote:
I wasn't actually aware that Love Train was a Motown song.
I don't think it is. The O'Jays are Philly boys. Well, actually they're from Ohio, but that's Philly soul. Gamble & Huff, Philly International.
Not too far removed from the subject, though! |
|
|
| FPM C10 |
My favorite part of the VL opener in DC, Aug 1, 1994, was the Stones' version of "Can't Get Next To You". That was BAD ASS.
Wonder what cool covers they will grace us with this tour? That's always a fun thing to anticipate. They never let us down on that angle - they have exquisite taste in oher people's music! |
|
|
| Gazza |
their cover of "cant get next to you" was more inspired by Al Green's version than the Temptations', though..
Al Green. That voice is worthy of another thread on its own. |
|
|
| FPM C10 |
quote:
Gazza wrote:
their cover of "cant get next to you" was more inspired by Al Green's version than the Temptations', though..
Right you are. Mick introduced it as such, too. I really wasn't familiar with the Rev. Al's version, but it makes sense - with only one voice - to do it that way.
I don't know why they dropped that one. It was great.
quote:
Gazza wrote:
Al Green. That voice is worthy of another thread on its own.
Yes indeed. In 1995 I got to hear Al sing a duet with Aretha. Those two voices filled a stadium.
It's hard to believe that voices like those come out of humans! |
|
|
| Lord Homosex |
Yeah texile, that is the album. It has "It's not Unusual". If anyone will burn me a copy I will be glad to make it worth the while. (But I don't do the entire shaft...LOL) |
|
