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Topic: Decoding shn discs Return to archive Page: 1 2
06-22-03 10:15 AM
Factory Girl
How does one decode shn discs? Thanks!
06-22-03 10:31 AM
steel driving hammer If you work with SHN's, you absolutely should get into the habit of using md5 checksums

I'm really not very good at explaining this, so bear with...

1) why shn files can transfer with errors,
SHNs are rather large files. Files of such size are multitudes more prone to making a file transfer error than tiny files, whether it be disc-->hard drive, hard drive-->burning a disc, or internet-->hard drive downloading.

2) equipment does matter:
dirty or cheap discs (like Memorex) are a likely source of errant transfers.
some CDroms do not read certain discs as well as others.
broken/strained downloads, which are much more likely with slow/modem connections are a very likely culprit for shn failures

3) why your system/pc doesn't know when an error takes place:
actually, I'm no computer expert, so I don't know exactly why,
o.k., sometimes your system will warn you that a transfer failed, or mkwACT will not decode a shn if it is messed up
but I assure you that often everything looks o.k., but your system is unaware that a shn has taken on a flaw in transit

4) the purpose of the md5:
The md5 tag should accompany any set of shns. It serves as a fingerprint and can be used to quickly sort through the corresponding shns to make sure that no errors have taken place.

5) how do you check the md5?:
Usually, an md5 is made for each disc, and has "fingerprint info" on each track for that disc.
You must have mkwACT installed on your system. Clicking on the md5 will bring up the mkwACT window, and it should display the course of searching through the shns, as well as any error info.
Yyou must have the md5 in the same folder as the corresponding shns

6) if a shn fails md5 verification:
if it was a download, try downloading that file again
if you can, repeat the transfer if it was from a disc. If you have to, try a different CDrom to read some skeevy discs that give you problems.
If it was during a burn, reburn, as you've just gained another coaster...it might be the disc's fault

7) when should you check md5s?
anytime you transfer them.
if you get a shn disc from a vine, transfer it to your hard drive, then check the md5 before burning anything or decoding the shns.
Likewise, check the md5 after downloading shns
after you burn a shn disc, check the md5s on that disc.

7) the shit that happens if people don't check md5s:
you might get a bunch of shn discs from a trade, but you realize that several shns fail md5 verification.
You might get or burn audio discs that have a problem that you will not know about until you have listened through them. For example, that ripping "Jack Straw" might be fine until you get 3 minutes in...all-of-the-sudden there are 4 minutes of silence instead of a rousing jam which aren't supposed to be there. this is what happens when a screwed up shn gets decoded all silence from the point at which an error occurs.

8) in conclusion:
if you are worried about the fact that you haven't been checking the md5s, well, everything probably went o.k. anyhow. md5 failures are rare when simply transferring shns from disc and burning.
If a screw-up happens, no big deal. Life is not perfect. CD trading is not some big, glorious business (like Enron) that needs lawyers and governmental protection. no heads will roll (w/ de Stones).


06-22-03 11:02 AM
mac_daddy go here and download multifrontend. Follow the instructions to install it...

go here and download Shorten V. 3.5.1 (shorten.exe).
Extract shorten.exe into the same directory (folder) that has multifrontend.exe in it...

go here and download md5summer (Latest version 1.1.0.27) and install it...

use md5summer to check the SHN .md5(s). If all verifies OK, then convert SHN > WAV. If all does not verify OK, then redownload, recopy, etc...

SHN > WAV

open multi frontend

** in the codec pull-down menu, choose Shorten
** in the options menu, select "-x"

pick the files by clicking "add files" and selecting the *.shns you downloaded (or copied from a CD-R)...

click "..." to select the output folder (where the .wav files will be saved)...

click "Go" and you should get a DOS window that says "decompressing *.shn"

when the blue title bar on the DOS window says "finished," you have made the .wav files you need to burn your CDs...

06-22-03 12:25 PM
steel driving hammer You notice how Mick is now wearing green and now Britney is wearing green?

And now copying Micks poses like this one!

06-22-03 02:08 PM
Factory Girl I order for me to burn a shn decoded disc, must I have a computer burner?? Thanks!
06-22-03 03:42 PM
mac_daddy you have to have a program that burns audio CDs in DAO mode...

I use burnatonce, Fuerio is another good option, but most people seem to use the commercial application Nero. Any CD-RW drive will work with these software programs...
06-22-03 03:59 PM
Sir Stonesalot Hey SDH...where'd you snip and paste your tutorial from?

FG...you do indeed need to have a computer burner for .shn

IMO, .shn is a complete waste of time. It adds a bunch of extra steps to the burning process, it excludes people who use stand alone burners, and the payoff is minimal. Proponents of .shn claim that it is a lossless form of compression. I have some shows that came to me in the .shn form, and I have the same shows that are in audio form...and I can't tell any difference what-so-ever.

I see no point in .shn other than it makes technoweenies get a hard on.
06-22-03 04:25 PM
mac_daddy Hello sir...

using lossless (SHN, FLAC, etc.) is the ONLY way to insure that you have a bit-for-bit perfect clone of the material that you are copying...

these formats have error checking built in to their systems...

it is possible to verify all files once the data is burned to CD-R...

you call it stroking off, I view it as being cautious, and the ONLY way to store music archives.
06-22-03 04:28 PM
VaporTrails I'm going to make this a LOT easier on you.

The ONLY utility you need to extract the .wav from a .shn is a program called MKW (the initials of the person who created the program). MKW converts .shn files to .wav and .wav to .shn or 256k MP3 (by default). There are also options for creating the .md5 files if you desire (but thats another story altogether).

Once you download the utility and install it all you need to do is RIGHT CLICK on the .shn file and from the popup menu select DECODE TO .WAV and it does the decoding work for you.

As for a burning, I suggest Nero by Ahead. It's by far the best burning software on the market and will allow you to burn in DAO (Disk At Once) mode which will create a seamless sounding audio disk true to the original release.

I hope this helps.

http://home.att.net/~mkw/mkwact.html

EDIT: added link for the program... thought it would be helpfull (in other words, I forgot to add it the first time.. D'OH!)
[Edited by VaporTrails]
06-22-03 04:43 PM
mac_daddy welcome to the group, vapor trails...

please remember that mkw is tricky with anything later than win98 (and even then, you still have to install the libraries seperately). I agreee that when it is installed properly, mkw makes life with SHNs very easy, but you would be surprised how many people cannot get through the installation...

the programs (and method) I suggest above work on ALL windows machines...

nero costs $$ and crashes my computer; burnatonce is open source, feurio is non-crippled demoware...

ymmv.

____

sir wrote: "I have some shows that came to me in the .shn form, and I have the same shows that are in audio form...and I can't tell any difference what-so-ever."

just because you can't tell the difference does not mean there isn't one, or won't be one when you burn an audio copy for the next trade-recipient down the line...
06-22-03 04:51 PM
VaporTrails I'm running WinXP Pro (have been since beta) and have never had a problem with MKW or Nero on my machine. Sorry to hear you have since that is what I have found to be the easiest and most efficient combonation of proggies when it comes to warehousing and burning my boots.
06-22-03 05:56 PM
mac_daddy I don't have problems with mkw, but again, you would be amazed at the number of people who do...

as far as nero is concerned, I am quite satisfied with burnatonce...
06-22-03 07:12 PM
Sir Stonesalot >just because you can't tell the difference does not mean there isn't one, or won't be one when you burn an audio copy for the next trade-recipient down the line...<

It also doesn't mean that there IS one either. Dude, if you can't hear it, what possible difference can it make? These are NOT professional recordings we are talking about. They are homedone, DIY, concert recordings. These recordings, in and of themselves, are imperfect. I can tell right away that you and I are trading for 2 different reasons. You are an archivist. I simply enjoy live music. When I get discs in a trade, the only thing that I care about is...does music come out of my speakers. I prefer gapless recordings...but it's not really that big of a deal to me if it's TAO. 1/10,000th of a second of diginoise at the 2:47 second mark of t5d2 means absolutely nothing to me. I don't care, and it does not hinder my enjoyment of the music one iota.

I traded for years before .shn came around. My trading reputation speaks for itself. I don't send out fucked up discs...and if one does get past me...I make it right.

I always thought that trading was supposed to be about sharing music, and FUN. Trading should not be a chore, and it should NOT be exclusive. .shn IS exclusive, and it is a chore. It excludes the fine traders out there who spent a lot of $$$ on good stand alone burners. Converting files and reburning everything IS a chore, especially to technologically challenged people like me. What really tweeks me about the whole thing is that .shn seems to be getting shoved down people's throats. You say it's the "only" way to "archive" music. Well, no it isn't. There is nothing wrong with the way I do things, and there is nothing wrong with the way Factory Girl does things. If that is not good enough for you...tough shit. I have a circle of about 20-30 people that I do most of my trading with...as long as they are happy with what I send them...that is all that matters to me.

.shn is a pain in the ass, and I'm not gonna mess with it.
06-22-03 07:25 PM
steel driving hammer
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
.shn is a pain in the ass, and I'm not gonna mess with it.



Me neither!

Just burn the fucking track.
06-22-03 07:48 PM
Cardinal Fang Let me jump in here.

Vapor Trails & Mac Daddy you two AND Sir Stonesalot & Factory Girl are talking APPLES AND ORANGES.

Since I'm friends with SS & FG, Let me SERIOUSLY clarify this before this get WAY the fuck out of hand.

What Vapor Trails & Mac Daddy are saying IS correct. HOWEVER....(pay attention here you two)

Sir Stonesalot & Factory Girl have STAND ALONE burners and this is all a MOOT POINT for them.

For my friend Sir Stonesalot !! You are missing a few pieces of info so let me fill in the gaps (this applies to Mac Daddy too)

QUOTE> Sir Stonesalot said, " it excludes people who use stand alone burners, and the payoff is minimal. Proponents of .shn claim that it is a lossless form of compression. I have some shows that came to me in the .shn form, and I have the same shows that are in audio form...and I can't tell any difference what-so-ever."

Yes = stand alone burners

No = minimal payoff. "WHY" shn is so popular is from the DOWNLOADING perspective of it. You can DOWNLOAD shn files in a "lossless form of compression". This is GREAT. Instead of download those (IMO) "SHITTY SOUNDING" MP3 recordings, you can download a "perfect" sounding shn file. (with the jacket artwork already impeded into the file !!) Rick Anderson turned me on to this.

The fact that Sir Stonesalot has compared an shn version to a "regular" CD-R audio and couldn't tell any difference is EXACTLY THE POINT !!!! There is NO LOSS of audio frequency when "DOWNLOADING" the shn file. (try that with an MP3 file !!) Exactly.

QUOTE> Mac Daddy said, " just because you can't tell the difference does not mean there isn't one, or won't be one when you burn an audio copy for the next trade-recipient down the line... "

This is apples and oranges and is not what Sir Stonesalot was referring to at all.

To address Mac Daddy, IF there is a difference when you burn a copy down the line, that's not the fault of the shn format. That's operator error.

Speaking of which...

SS said, "Hey SDH...where'd you snip and paste your tutorial from?"

I wasn't going to say anything about that !! (Ask Joey !) but since you already did......

Isn't it obvious Marc !? Look at step #7 and "Jack Straw".
Wasn't even smart enough to change the name from "Jack Straw" to "Start Me Up" !!

SDH said, "I'm really not very good at explaining this, so bear with... "

(this is my favorite part of the whole thread !)

Yeah and you've never really been very smart at ripping stuff off written by other people and trying to pass it off as YOUR OWN. BUSTED AGAIN ! In the future Tony, (honestly !!) I really would think more highly of you if you would just provide the link and say, "here's a link I found" INSTEAD of you to keep trying to pass this stuff off as "your own". If you need an example on how to do this, here's one:

http://www.keno.org/gasland/get.asp?M=67386&P=67374&T=67374

See, I PROVIDED the link. I didn't say something like, "I'm really not very good at explaining this, so bear with... "

You kill me sometimes !! As far as I know Tony (and want to) YOU have a stand alone burner. Once in a while you make discs that don't have two second gaps on them. Unless you also have now bought a PC burner (?), WHY would you even know about any of this ?

I'm NOT trying to be mean to you Tony. Honest.

For Factory Girl:
(sorry you had to wade through all of this :-)
You have two options. ONE: Get somebody with a PC burner to re-rip it and burn it for you. TWO: There is a way you could try to do it yourself. You could:

01 - Download one of the shn players that Mac Daddy & Vapor Trails were mentioning so that you could play the disc on your PC.

02 - Run a stereo "Y" cable out of your headphone or line out jack of your PC and plug it into the input jacks of your stand alone burner. (if your burner has them ? They should)

03 - Play it on the PC and record it on your stand alone in "Real Time".

I would chose method #1.

I hope this helps ?

Later, "Not even Top-5"

P.S. Sir Stonesalot, I got your email. I'll get back to you as soon as I get it all sorted out. I tried to incorporate the Microsoft "Outlook" to download my email to my hard drive. Now it's ALL FUCKED UP !! I'm working through it though ! I may have to ask you to resend your last email to me. (Not now but if needed !!) Thank's.

L8r :-)


06-22-03 07:54 PM
steel driving hammer Pretty Beat Up 6 String...









Jack Straw from Witchita, laid his buddy down...
06-22-03 07:58 PM
mac_daddy whose guitars?
06-22-03 08:01 PM
mac_daddy Why are you going down this road? I thought this thread was about HOW to decode SHN, not trying to debate lossless v. audio. I responded to a generalization that is not entirely valid, and you decide to jump down my throat...

as far as not hearing the difference...

when audio CDs are burned with Sector Boundary Errors, the first generation disc doesn't have a problem, but the 5th generation audio disc will likely have audible gaps between tracks. So again, while you might not hear anything, discs made from your copy may develop problems further down the line. If they have SBEs, discs sourced from your copy will develop audible gaps, it is just a matter of which generation...

Having fun and getting it (exact, bit for bit, duplication) right do NOT have to be mutually exclusive. The way I see it, if I am going to enjoy the music, I want the BEST available source, one without errors. I want a way to reproduce, share and trade this music with NO errors - and I want that to be verifiable. When I said "only way to do this," I meant that lossless is the only way to do this generation after generation, and verify that not bits were lost or damaged. That is a correct statement. If those are not your standards, so be it. [I don't even know what this has to do with the discussion, but you did bring it up ("If that is not good enough for you...tough shit.")]...

Because it takes more effort, does not make it any less enjoyable. Is listening to music on a portable boom-box more enjoyable than listening through a well-designed and well-built home hi-fi, which reproduces full-frequency sound in a much more accurate manner, simply because it is easier to push PLAY on the box?

I did not understand from FactoryGirl's post that she used a standalone burner exclusively. Had I known that, I would have responded kindly that, no - there is no way to decode SHN discs with a standalone burner.
06-22-03 08:05 PM
mac_daddy to play SHNs in winamp use the SHNamp plugin. More info here (just make sure you get the right version for you minamp 2.x or 3.x)...
06-22-03 08:43 PM
Sir Stonesalot Hey Fangybaby!

I sure as hell hope that you can get that email figured out...because I didn't save my reply to you.

On the other hand, I do remember what my suggestions were. So, no big deal.

Now, I do have a stand alone...that I do not use for burning anymore. I use my PC for burning now. I do NOT download anything. I like the way I do things just fine...and I'm not gonna have people telling me that it is not good enough when it damn well is. It took me 2 months, and 4 different people tutoring me on how to do .shn...and I still couldn't get the fucking things to work. I finally downloaded the mkw tool and that I can make work.

But my question is...why do I need this? I don't download anything, and I'm never going to. It is just a complication that, IMO, isn't really necessary. I don't give a shit about the art, I make better anyhow. So what is in it for me? Why should I go to all the trouble of converting .shn, when I can simply trade for a ready to play audio disc?

If people want to download and use .shn, cool. I can understand that. But I'm telling you right now, if someone wants to do a trade with me, and insists on .shn...well, they better look elsewhere, or accept my audio discs. See, I have the luxury of basically, being able to "shop" around. If someone wants to be all anal retentive, and insist on certain brands of discs, and certain formats, even certain burning speeds...fuck them. I don't want to deal with someone like that. It sucks all the fun out of everything. I mean, if TDK Certified, or Fuji's aren't good enough...well then you're way too uptight for me.

It really torques me that all of the sudden this .shn thing is being crammed down my throat. I don't need it, don't want it, and mostly...don't want it FORCED on me. I've skipped the last 2 Dylantrees because they are .shn only trees. I do not want to deal with it, so fuck it. I'll get it in audio form later. In fact, I'll probably just quit going on Dylantree altogether. The way I see it, is that it's THEIR loss. I am a good solid trader, with a very nice, varied trade list. Because they choose to do things in .shn ONLY now, I choose to not play there anymore.

If they want to do .shn, good for them, have at it. What pisses me off, is that it excludes, or makes it difficult, for many people. IMO, THAT is NOT what trading is all about. To me, it's about sharing what you have, having fun, and making friends. I don't see that in downloading or .shn. All I see is a headache.
06-22-03 08:54 PM
mac_daddy to be clear, I was not cramming anything down your throat - how you choose to build your collection is entirely up to you, and I never suggested otherwise...

I was trying to give a clear answer to FactoryGirl's question as best as I understood it, and clear up the misleading information that found it's way into a thread that I am sure will be viewed by others in the future (I can never get the search engine to work, but that s a different story entirely)...
06-22-03 09:59 PM
Sir Stonesalot But M-D...don't you see it? Poor FG can't play with you because she has a stand alone. Is that fair? No it isn't.

See, you are ASSUMING that discs that I send out will have errors. So I'm guilty unless I can prove myself innocent? Bullshit. I'm telling you that I properly burn discs, and that they sound good, and play without any gaps.

I am not and never will be an audiophile. I've spent about a total of $500.00 on my stereo. It sounds good to me.

>Because it takes more effort, does not make it any less enjoyable.<

It does make it less enjoyable for me. You obviously don't know the hours upon hours of frustration that I went through trying to get those fucking .shn files to convert. I am not a computer expert, and I don't really ever care to be one. I don't download anything, I don't use ftp servers, and I don't care to learn about it. I do not have broadband, and cannot tie up my phone line for hours at a time with a music download.

And just how is that fun anyhow? There isn't any human interaction. How do you develope a relationship with a server? The way I do things has a very human touch to it. I develope "cyberfriendships" with the people that I trade with. Like the kind of friendship where a guy flys halfway around the world to hang out for a week at my place. Can't do that with a server my friend.

>and the ONLY way to store music archives.<

That is your opinion. Obviously, I feel differently. I am quite proud of my collection...as imperfect as it may be. And I don't like it when people tell me that everything that I busted my ass collecting the last 4 years is worthless because it "might" have errors on it. I already told you, we are approaching this from two very different places. Your objective is quite different from my objective. My point is that using .shn EXCLUSIVELY, keeps a lot of very good people from playing the game.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm jumping on you. I don't mean it that way, really. I'm sure you are a swell fella. What I'm jumping on is that .shn excludes people. And by having .shn only trees, or only trading in .shn, it excludes many people. I don't think that is right. I have no need for .shn, to me it just complicates the process. See, it's not you personally M-D...it's the process.

I know what happened with Factory Girl, and why she put up this thread. I'll bet she signed on as a leaf for an .shn tree at Dylantree, and now she can't get her discs to play in her stereo. She has no burner in her PC. What she will end up doing is sending her discs to someone who can convert them to audio for her. I'm sure this will greatly enhance her enjoyment of those discs.

I have no problem with .shn as long as there is an audio option as well. Some of us find the whole extract and burn process complicated enough...adding more complications to the process isn't a very attractive proposition. I know you don't understand this point of view...because you can make the technology work. To you it's easy. But to many many people it ISN'T easy, it's a frustrating chore. And frustrating chores are not my idea of fun.

Oh, and one other thing...if you think threads ever stay on topic at this board...think again.
06-22-03 10:16 PM
steel driving hammer 5 String Open G Mother Fucker...







06-22-03 10:22 PM
mac_daddy I apparently misunderstood FG's situation...

I never said lossless is the only way to collect/archive music. I just said that it is the only way to do this and verifiably be sure that there was no loss of information or damaged data; it is...

I appreciate that technology is tricky for some, which is why I took my time revising text that I started in a thread @ shidoobee, and will eventually post permanently at my site (I have no idea why you were going after that). I simply wrote it for those who are struggling. I described the method that was successful for the guy at shidoobee who wass running win2000 and couldn't get mkw or shndrop working...

I am with you - it is all about appreciating and enjoying the music. Sharing is a big part of that. Why do you think I host a new, high-quality Stones show each week? I want as many people as possible to jump in on these offers - they are open to everybody (not exclusionary like ftp and directconnect hubs sometimes seem to be). As far as including the "audioCD only" crowd, I am down with that, too. But I am not going to burn all the discs myself - I simply don't have time...

My hope is that a person who downloads and archives losslessly will burn a set of lossless discs to vine to the group. Likewise I would like to see one who just converts the downloaded files, and burns audio discs to offer a set of those back to the group. This is the way it works in other trading circles I am involved with; I offer several other (non-stones) sets each week. They are downloaded hundreds of times each, and traditional vines are started so everybody gets served...
06-22-03 10:23 PM
mac_daddy now those are sweet guitar pics!!!

is the first one Keith's as well?
06-22-03 10:41 PM
steel driving hammer I think it is Mac Daddy!

http://www.sixstringarts.com/keith_tele2ga.htm

http://www.sixstringarts.com/keith_ga2.htm

http://www.sixstringarts.com/keith335ga.htm

Stones Rule My Den.
06-22-03 10:43 PM
VaporTrails Just to add my final .02c to this debate...


The ONLY reason I warehouse 60+GB of .shn files is because it's the community 'standard'. The mp3 versions of these shows sounded just fine to me both on my pc and when burned to audio CD and played on high end equipment. However, the 'community' as a whole rejects that idea now with lossless compression.

So I continue to warehouse these shows.. and will keep on collecting them.. I even plan on buying a dedicated 200GB HD soon so I can expand my boot list beyond the "EX" shows so many covet. It would be nice to get those fantastic performances that might not sound great and be able to share a little bit more of the joy.

And just for the record...

I found this board because RUSH have been mentioned as being a part of the T.O. show. So I've been checking every source I can find to confirm this rumor. I have no doubt that RUSH will in some way be involved (at the very least I would have to believe they will be loaning FOH equipment to the gig considering they're the ONLY band in Canada who not only owns their own gear, but can handle at a minimum the stage back rig.)

That being said... if any of you Stones fans are interested in some awesome RUSH boots, lemme know... I'll hook ya up.. would be nice to add a great Stones show or two to my collection
06-22-03 11:12 PM
mac_daddy vapor trails -

you have mail.
06-22-03 11:38 PM
Sir Stonesalot Community standard? What community?

See, here's the what I mean about .shn being forced on people.

Trading circles are not exclusive. People who deal exclusively with .shn permeate other trading groups and exert others to use .shn. The folks that were already there are then FORCED to do .shn if they want to deal with the new influx of traders.

I've seen it happen. At RollingStonesBoots, when I first joined up, there were about 250 traders there, all dealing predominately with the Rolling Stones. Back then I burned with a stand alone burner. Everything was going along swimmingly. Did lots of trades and expanded my list almost threefold. Then something happened that was both good and bad at the same time. The list owner started to advertise the list at other artists trading lists. Soon the population of our friendly little list went from 250 to over 1200! We then had over a thousand members who had little to no Stones in their collections. The most predominant crowd came from the Led Zepplin and Grateful Dead lists. They did things A LOT different than we did. They started making demands...you have to burn this way and only use these brands of discs. And there were the .shn people. When .shn was explained to me, I thought, wow this sounds great. Then I found out that with a stand alone .shn discs were worthless. Now, here's where I started to get rubbed the wrong way.....people started to decline to trade with me because I used a stand alone, and could not trade in .shn. Of course, this pissed me off to no end. There I was having a perfectly fun time, and then all these people started invading the list...and refuse to trade with me!

So, as you can see, I developed a bit of a chip on my shoulder about .shn. I'm all for passing along good clean copies. What I don't like is people excluding others simply because they do things differently.

If people want to download and use .shn, great for them. But they should also have the courtesy to do audio for the folks who either can't, or don't do .shn.

Mac-Daddy...what is your site? I don't recall saying anything about it.

06-23-03 07:21 AM
Factory Girl Thank you everyone for their valuable input and for answering my questions.

This place is always great for a lively debate!
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