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A Bigger Bang Tour 2007

Stade Gerland, Lyon 18th June 2007
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Topic: The problem with hero worship Return to archive Page: 1 2 3 4 5
8th June 2007 02:57 AM
ListenToTheLion In Holland we call people who always look for excuses an ' excuus-Truus'. Now there is someone on this board who is really the number one excuus-Truus.
8th June 2007 02:58 AM
stonedinaustralia
From the Werchter Park thread (now full) but apropos here in this one


quote:
polytoxic wrote:


And the level of playing is so completely at odds with the flash and polish of the stage show and backing band it verges on parody.



yes that is true and weird - in a way it is quite the most original thing they are doing as band - a whole new genre in fact - Vegas-Trainwreck
8th June 2007 03:31 AM
FotiniD SS, well, they did have the highest passion and competency levels back in the seventies, so the comparisons are usually made with that era in mind.

What I'm saying is that they're humans after all, so they can't be spot on every night. They're bound to have nights when they're more tired, bored, nervous, drunk. I'm just saying that when one decides to pay for a ticket to see the Stones in the year 2007, he / she has to realize that, either we like it or not, the 'prime' is long past. They're still good - cause they're a damn great band - but they're bound to have more off nights. That's just the way I see it, maybe I'm wrong, but it makes sense to me.

Heck, there was a band here, the most popular and succesful band in Greece, been around for 15 years and during the last 5-7 years of playing live, they were already so bored it didn't even matter if they had an audience in front of them. We've had the Stones around for over 40 years, and despite their flaws and off nights, they STILL are not as bad as this. If this isn't telling, I don't know what is. There's what we think is bad, and then there's the real bad.

But I agree with you on the motivation part - yes, they HAVE lost their motivation. But that happens as soon as the big money comes in. We've seen it happening with so many bands and musicians. At least, with the Stones, I have this feeling (I don't know if it's self-deception or not) that they DO like what they're doing. Even if they mess it up.

And I still enjoy a gig. Warts and all, as Nellcote says. I'm not pretending I enjoy it - I DO enjoy it.

Who was it that had said that at times they can sound like the best band in the world and at others like the worst garage band there is?

P.S. One more thing - is there anyone on this board that has the slightest doubt that in case the Stones nail it tonight, all the negative comments will be forsaken and people are gonna be raving?
[Edited by FotiniD]
8th June 2007 05:23 AM
ListenToTheLion What I'm saying is that they're humans after all, so they can't be spot on every night. They're bound to have nights when they're more tired, bored, nervous, drunk.


In that case don't you think it's fair to adjust the skyhigh ticketprices to normal levels? I think it is quite arrogant to ask a lot of money from your fans when they run the risk to attend a bad show.
Isn't it a matter of growing up to say: Because we are sometimes bored, tired, nervous or drunk maybe we should stop touring?
What does YOUR boss say when you appear tired, bored, nervous or drunk? Does he say: she is human, she can't help it? Or does he/she say: look, if you are not fit for the job please go.

8th June 2007 05:47 AM
MikeyC613
quote:
ListenToTheLion wrote:
What I'm saying is that they're humans after all, so they can't be spot on every night. They're bound to have nights when they're more tired, bored, nervous, drunk.





Bored, tired, and drunk are unacceptable at this stage. People should not entertain under these conditions. And if an act is charging 450 to see a man in this condition, people should stay at home, and so should the performers, especially a group touring under the moniker of Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World. Please. The fans have seen better, so have the non fans.
8th June 2007 05:51 AM
ListenToTheLion
quote:
MikeyC613 wrote:

Bored, tired, and drunk are unacceptable at this stage. People should not entertain under these conditions. And if an act is charging 450 to see a man in this condition, people should stay at home, and so should the performers, especially a group touring under the moniker of Greatest Rock and Roll Band in the World. Please. The fans have seen better, so have the non fans.



Agreed. But it's not me you are quoting but FotiniD.
8th June 2007 05:52 AM
ListenToTheLion [quote]Fotini:
[What I'm saying is that they're humans after all, so they can't be spot on every night. They're bound to have nights when they're more tired, bored, nervous, drunk.]


In that case don't you think it's fair to adjust the skyhigh ticketprices to normal levels? I think it is quite arrogant to ask a lot of money from your fans when they run the risk to attend a bad show.
Isn't it a matter of growing up to say: Because we are sometimes bored, tired, nervous or drunk maybe we should stop touring?
What does YOUR boss say when you appear tired, bored, nervous or drunk? Does he say: she is human, she can't help it? Or does he/she say: look, if you are not fit for the job please go.


8th June 2007 05:59 AM
Altamont bunch of fuckin whiners.


Did ya pay $450 to see them? Then you got what ya needed: a reality check.
8th June 2007 06:16 AM
FotiniD Hey Lion, I'm the first to say that ticket prices are wild and they MUST be lowered, i.e. drop to normal levels. Of course the tickets are ridiculously overpriced. Not so much in Europe, mind you, so I guess they know they can't charge so high prices here and expect people to show up.

And if I show up at work bored day after day for a long time, yep, my boss will fire me. But he won't do it if I do my job and it just so happens that one day I turn up sick. And he definitely won't do it if I happen to be working for him for the past 40 years. Well, at least my boss is like that
8th June 2007 06:21 AM
ListenToTheLion
quote:
FotiniD wrote:
Hey Lion, I'm the first to say that ticket prices are wild and they MUST be lowered, i.e. drop to normal levels. Of course the tickets are ridiculously overpriced. Not so much in Europe, mind you, so I guess they know they can't charge so high prices here and expect people to show up.

And if I show up at work bored day after day for a long time, yep, my boss will fire me. But he won't do it if I do my job and it just so happens that one day I turn up sick. And he definitely won't do it if I happen to be working for him for the past 40 years. Well, at least my boss is like that




Please give me the name and adress of your company!
A letter of application is on the way!
8th June 2007 06:25 AM
pagey666.6
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
>glory of the early days and cheating audiences. The Stones are NOT that.<

Really? Coulda fooled me.

> But still, do you seriously expect that they're gonna be sounding as good as they did in the seventies? And do that on a constant basis, night after night?<

Kindly point out, in any post that I have made, where I suggest any such thing. What I said was, that I expect any band that I pay to see, to play competently and with some passion every time out. That is what I said. How you take that to mean that they should still sound like they did in the 70's...I dunno? So yes, the Stones should be enthusiastic and competent every single night that they play. I would expect that of any good touring band. And since The Stones are the greatest...they are the greatest, right?...that shouldn't be very hard for them to do. I mean, bands with just a fraction of The Stones pedigree get up and do that every night.

>Not even Iggy sounds as good as he did some decades ago.<

I saw Iggy in 1987...and I saw him a couple of months ago. And you are right, Iggy doesn't sound as good as he did back then. I think he sounds better. That show I saw back in April is somewhere in the top 5 shows I've ever seen in my life.

>it's absolutely normal that they have more off nights in their sixties than they did in their thirties.<

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. Age is no excuse, IMO. If you are suggesting that The Stones physically can't play at 100% anymore because they are too old and infirm, then I say that if they are that bad off they shouldn't be on the road at all. They should be at home resting and getting healthy. I think it is nothing more than a lack of any motivation to play well. The money is guaranteed and in the bank. So now it's show up, fuck around for a bit, and move on to the next most expensive hotel on the planet in the next city.

>But still, I do agree with you, they DO have it in them, and when they do give it all they got, they're still the best band in the world.<

So if they have it in them, why don't they do it more often?

>I'd like them to play all nights like they're on fire. But is that even realistic? Can a band actually do that? Could a band do it for over forty years without deteriorating at all?<

Well THEY say that they can...but then again they say a LOT of shit.

>We expect them to be the Exile on Main Street Stones, the Let it Bleed Stones, the Brussels bootleg Stones. Take the town by storm each night.<

Again, please point out where I say that I expect any of things that you just mentioned. I do think that they should at least ACT like they are trying to take the town by storm each night though. I mean, Keith is a fuckin' pirate after all. I'll say it one last time. I expect that the Stones play with competency and enthusiasm every time they walk on a stage. I think that is a fair expectation for any band that I plunk down cash to see. If The Stones can't handle that task, then I think they should hang it up.


>but I still would take this over not having the Stones around.<

This is the crux of our disagreement. I've seen the Stones 17 times. I don't need to see them again if Werchter is what I'm likely to get. I'm not a betting man...and when I do bet, it's because I know I'm gonna win. Well to me, The Stones are no longer a safe bet. So I would rather not see them again, and keep my memories as mostly good ones. Honestly, I should have quit going to shows after the Roseland Ballroom show.

>We're spoiled rotten.<

That I will agree with. But who spoiled us? The Stones set the bar...and they still talk the talk. But do they have the will, and the passion to walk it like they talk it? If the answer is no, then I'd rather not be spoiled anymore.

>They owe us nothing.<

Bullshit Nelly.

Let's apply your logic to a similar situation, shall we?

You and me are hanging out, amd we get hungry. We decide to put on some nice clothes and go to the best steakhouse in the city. We get there and order the best Porterhouse that they have. When we get our steaks, they are 75% fat & gristle. They are overcooked and dry.

Now...according to you, that steakhouse gave us what we ordered and they owe us nothing else. You pay for your's and leave with no fuss. I, on the other hand, go to the manager, and insist that he give me a proper steak, or I'm not paying for it.

When you purchase a concert ticket...especially at the prices Stones Inc charges...there is a level of expectation that must be met. I understand there is no law to make that stand up in court. But we are not in a court. Perhaps the court of public opinion. But my point is that when you go to a fine restaurant, you expect fine food. If you go to see "The World's Greatest Rock n Roll Band", you expect to see some fine Rock n Roll. It costs a big pile of $$$ to see a Stones show. I expect my money's worth. The last two shows that I saw, I did not feel that I got my money's worth. This last show, I would not have felt that I got my money's worth for sure.

If the Stones come back to the US, and expect me to plunk down a fat wad of $$$ to see the crap that they are putting out there...they are sadly mistaken. If they want my money, they need to quit fucking off, and get consistantly good. They need to prove to me that my money will be well spent. They need to show me that they are still competent, and that they still have passion and enthusiasm.

I'm not gonna hold my breath on that.

[Edited by Sir Stonesalot]



Wow. Well put!!!!!!!!! Agree 100%. I have good memories of my Stones shows and I don't want it tarnished!!!!!
8th June 2007 06:29 AM
FotiniD
quote:
pagey666.6 wrote:


Wow. Well put!!!!!!!!! Agree 100%. I have good memories of my Stones shows and I don't want it tarnished!!!!!



Well, then, if you're so afraid of that, stop going for Christ's sakes! Or maybe we should vote

I'm still willing to take the risk.
8th June 2007 07:04 AM
Nellcote SS, my armored friend.
These are performers, with issues.
There has never been a Stones ticket
I bought where I did not think some
event was going to happen. I've never
left a Stones show not feeling satisfied.
The steak analogy, eh, is not quite the
same. I'm probably not going to a steakhouse
where I know the cook or staff might be on
smack, coke, or pickled on booze.
Not my cup of tea. I will still go to see any band
that may have priors in the substance vein.
You have to expect anything can or will happen.

What is a fairer analogy is if you knew in advance
that the performing troupe of the Producers, or
Jersey Boys, or any popular theatre show have a 30 year
history of substance abuse, where the performance on
any given evening has had a history of being sub par, would you buy a high priced ticket? Probably not, as you may only
need to see the show once, the chance of a different ending is not there. With the Stones, one goes to be entertained in the Stones manner, which, as we have witnessed, over many years, can have one or more of the muscians in a challenged state of being. As long as they are selling tickets, in their mind, evryting is arie, as the Rastas say...Once people realize these are performers with
issues, who have been validated by fans paying
big dough to see them for over a decade, no matter
what condition they are in, this will all be easier
to take. If fans stop paying the outrageous ticket prices which are being charged, maybe something will click within
the band to change their ways?

They do not owe anyone anything. You buy a ticket to a Stones concert, knowing the baggage that is the Stones, it's part of the event. As time goes on, the baggage is seemingly appearing to becoming heavier.
8th June 2007 07:29 AM
PartyDoll MEG
quote:
FotiniD wrote:


But I agree with you on the motivation part - yes, they HAVE lost their motivation. But that happens as soon as the big money comes in. We've seen it happening with so many bands and musicians. At least, with the Stones, I have this feeling (I don't know if it's self-deception or not) that they DO like what they're doing. Even if they mess it up.

And I still enjoy a gig. Warts and all, as Nellcote says. I'm not pretending I enjoy it - I DO enjoy it.

Who was it that had said that at times they can sound like the best band in the world and at others like the worst garage band there is?

P.S. One more thing - is there anyone on this board that has the slightest doubt that in case the Stones nail it tonight, all the negative comments will be forsaken and people are gonna be raving?
[Edited by FotiniD]



Ah Sistah...so true

I really think if we hadn't been remortgaging our homes to go see our Boys for the last few years..this wouldn't be such a "hot" issue. Coupled with their seemingly "lack of concern" towards their 40+ year loyal fans, it gets very easy to throw stones.

quote:
Nellcote wrote:

They do not owe anyone anything. You buy a ticket to a Stones concert, knowing the baggage that is the Stones, it's part of the event. As time goes on, the baggage is seemingly appearing to becoming heavier.


We may know the baggage that is a Stones show, but they do owe us an entertaining evening at those fucking prices!! And even when they are at their worst (and only a true fan would even know that}, they usually produce the goods for johnqpublic. Reading the reviews posted here and elsewhere, despite the comments about Keith, no one mentioned regretting going or making it their last show. Lots of "dribble" in my opinion. Look forward to the concert tonight..


8th June 2007 09:45 AM
Dan
quote:
ListenToTheLion wrote:

What does YOUR boss say when you appear tired, bored, nervous or drunk? Does he say: she is human, she can't help it? Or does he/she say: look, if you are not fit for the job please go.



My boss hasn't said anything at all about it.
8th June 2007 09:54 AM
ListenToTheLion
quote:
Dan wrote:


My boss hasn't said anything at all about it.



That's because you have no job.
8th June 2007 10:01 AM
voodoopug
quote:
Altamont wrote:
bunch of fuckin whiners.


Did ya pay $450 to see them? Then you got what ya needed: a reality check.



$450 is a good price for an evening of entertainment these days!
8th June 2007 10:05 AM
Joey
quote:
ListenToTheLion wrote:


That's because you have no job.




That's what my little friends and myself running around the Plains of Nebraska with knickers on and stick ball bats in our hands used to call "Postin'!"

You're POSTIN' baby!

The Joey - As seen on the reality show "That's Postin'!", 10:00 PM CDT Sundays.


8th June 2007 10:06 AM
nankerphelge The man clearly has issues and people should stop making excuses for him. If he cannot play, whether because of alcohol, drugs, arthritis, bad gas, sore balls, whatever...he should stop embarassing himself, his band and his fans.

People close to him really need to pull him aside and confront him.

The tour opener should be rough, but not because of the guitarist being so fucked up he can't play.

I hope to hell someone shows him this thread.

Keith, stop fucking up.
Simple as that.

You fashion yourself a no bullshit kinda guy?

Well - no bullshit my friend -- either play or sit down.



8th June 2007 10:09 AM
FotiniD
quote:
nankerphelge wrote:

Well - no bullshit my friend -- either play or sit down.




What if he plays while sitting down?

No excuses, just a plain reality check.
But let's just wait it out a little.
8th June 2007 10:11 AM
_Boomy_ Riffy, you are right.

Playing drunk is totally different than playing "high".

I saw a video of Slash fucking up pretty bad on a Youtube clip because of how drunk he was.
8th June 2007 10:43 AM
mojoman
quote:
voodoopug wrote:


$450 is a good price for an evening of entertainment these days!



a bargain. a decent courtesan is at least a grand.
8th June 2007 10:59 AM
_Boomy_ I don't really buy them not oweing us anything. Do you think the members of the band would tell a reporter they don't owe the audience anything if they were asked that question? I don't. I'd think they'd respond positively and tell the reporter that they'd want to play the best show possible.

THAT is what they owe us: the best show possible. But is that subjective? Some people will like it, some people won't. It would be a sad state of affairs if most didn't like it and only a small minority enjoyed it.

I don't think many analogies would be exempt in this case. If I buy a Sony TV that has a lot of promotion and marketing behind it, I'd expect Sony to owe me the best product for the money I purchase it with. You purchase a product, you expect to be owed something. You buy a Heineken, and you expect it to be Heinken, not O'Douls in a Heineken bottle. The Stones themselves made this all a product, so we now expect to be owed something, and that is nothing more than getting the bigger band for your buck.

If the TV is a dud, I can take it back or get a refund. However, you can't do that with a ticket!



8th June 2007 11:37 AM
Nellcote Right you are Boomy, and last I knew, neither the TV or the Steak noted earlier are human.

Again, they are not Ziegfried & Roy.
We all know the priors which come with The Stones.

Just don't buy the tickets, they will get the message real quick.
Or, if you do decide to buy, it is buyer beware, or just remember to enjoy the hell out of it!

One last thought, which came to mind...these are 70's rockers, and any and all were like this in the 70's. The list is endless, Skynyrd, J Geils, Zep, Purple, Faces, to name a few. All were on stage with Jack Daniels, Dom, etc, Kentucky Fried, we never gave a crap. Tripping, falling, slurring, stumbling, leaving band members alone to play solos for twenty minutes while they left to get a drink (faces), we all thought it was a hoot!
As much as everyone here hates them Aerosmith were five addicts, who all attended AA together, and do still to this day, turned it around for a 2nd shot a the ring. Skynyrd cleaned up, only to have most of them die in a tragic crash. Now, we are all exacting critics, saying "our band should perform in such a manner, because we paid a gazillion dinero for ducats." Our society has become too exacting now, relating dollars to performance, when back in the day, we all went blitzed & blotto, and, dug the crap out of it, skipped school to buy tickets, or slept out at the front door overnight, three sheets to the wind, to watch out heros in the same manner. Most here need to turn the wayback machine to recall this....Of course, I'm ready for all of the bombast I will get for this, it really is pretty funny, quite frankly....I think I will go have some drinks tonight, while cooking outside, to see if I can still perform as I have in the past.

8th June 2007 11:42 AM
Saint Sway time to hire one of the Crowes guitarists and stick em in the background to double his parts like the Who do with Stuart Townsend.

Stu just sits back there and doubles Petes parts and the show sounds great

it works fine for them, so lets bring in a ringer

Mick, you have Rich Robinsons phone #

get it done
8th June 2007 11:45 AM
Nellcote There you go.
Someone other than Blondie.
I thought Jimmy Ripp would do,
as he has history with Jagger,
and plays a mean slide.
8th June 2007 11:49 AM
Saint Sway
quote:
Nellcote wrote:
There you go.
Someone other than Blondie.
I thought Jimmy Ripp would do,
as he has history with Jagger,
and plays a mean slide.




I'd be fine with Ripp or Waddy

the time has clearly come

we have 5 brass dudes and 3 background singers, I don't see why we cant add a guitarist into the mix. Just sit him in the back next to Charlie's kit like The Who do and have him double the riff parts - let Keef hop around and do meaningless Chuck Berry solos
8th June 2007 11:51 AM
gimmekeef Guys..we have enough extras already dont we?...Tonights show will be telling in so far as as Keith is concerned.My hunch is he's back on fire...but the future??..I think the decline is irreversible....Just like my own...
8th June 2007 11:55 AM
Saint Sway
quote:
gimmekeef wrote:
Guys..we have enough extras already dont we?..



the stage is HUGE

we could still plop the entire Allmans Brothers band AND all of Santana on that stage and hardly no one would notice
8th June 2007 02:30 PM
mojoman
quote:
Saint Sway wrote:


the stage is HUGE

we could still plop the entire Allmans Brothers band AND all of Santana on that stage and hardly no one would notice



sympathy for the rolling stones symphony orchestra
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