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Topic: For guitar players Return to archive
05-09-03 05:49 AM
beer ok, ok, ok,
some questions and observations.
In the Rock and Roll Circus: if Keith played JJ Flash and You Cant Always Get What You Want in open tuning, why did he play them in standard for the R-R-Circus? Did he play them in standard so he could make up for Brians complete lack of effort in the Circus? That is my guess. Brian played nothing in the Circus except for the amazing "No Expectations" slide part. SO, why didn't Keith always just always play them in standard??? in the '69, and '72?? My guess is since he had to "carry" Brian during the circus, he played the rythm/leads, and Keith did it brilliantly. But that doesn't explain the reason why they were played in open G later on, since Keith played them so well in standard. does anyone know what I mean??
05-09-03 06:07 AM
beer .......and if my first question is too confusing, what are ya all playing on guitar lately? I've been playing "Love in Vain", "Sweet Virginia" and "Brown Sugar".
05-09-03 07:18 AM
stonedinaustralia well, yes beer, your question is a little confusing...'tho even if i understood it i'm not sure i'd have an answer

as for lately i've been playing "WH" (a la '75) - and angie - doing both in standard (and acoustic of course)- tho i'm brushing up on WH in open G

Also have been working out on Flying Burritos "i'm your toy"

plus have been listening to "get what you want" a bit lately - alt. takes on HTW have me going back to that one too...

STONES!!

SIAKY!!

and while i'm on - exile - nanker - pam - fmk - gerardo - nasty - et al. - i am finally getting myself together - coming up for 90 days since the enmore so things are finally settling down and work is afoot to make good the balance of things (exile - 1,000 apologies and hi to e.)

normal (god i hate that word - and i never use the word hate lightly) transmission will resume eventually

btw - i'm still on the up for the ASS or chicago or wherever the hell it happens - what about memphis?? or clarksdale for that matter...


have you heard this tracck called "whatever" - i forget his name - like duane eddy and a whoel lot of shit - chrous goes "in my united states of whatever..." - i like it - what do you think??
05-09-03 07:36 AM
Zeeta Maybe Keith played it later in an open tuning because he was more loaded when playing concerts - as JJF is easier to play in open tuning with a capo and he just couldn't be bothered to play in standard. Also Mick Taylor joined later and then of course Keith didn't need to "carry" anyone. Just a suggestion!
Indeed the question is a little confused!! HA!

Give me some more clarification on what you mean...

I have been playing of late the more bluesy Stones songs and trying to improve my blues technique - and Keith learned from the best - Berry, Muddy etc - so tunes like:

Route 66
Respectable
Carol - a la 69
Black limousine
Roll over Beethoven

Not blues but also She's So Cold - what Bill Wyman does around the 3.30 mark is awesome!
05-09-03 02:36 PM
sandrew Zeeta -- I know exactly what you're talking about re Wyman on "She's So Cold"! That slays me every time! No one -- I mean no one -- can reproduce that perfect, little gallop. Probably not even Wyman himself.
05-09-03 04:21 PM
Moonisup bill wyman is one underrated bassplayer,
if you listen closely, you can hear him "walk" over hiss bass,

I must admit, I miss bill, it took a while............
05-10-03 01:37 AM
monkeyman ANYBODY KNOW A SITE WITH CHORDS OF RONNIE WOOD OR OTHER STONES ?????
LUCAS.
05-10-03 02:34 AM
JumpinJackFlash http://www.mikesguitarsite.co.uk/tabs/rolling_stones/ yeah, there' a small one, if you download the power tab option there, it play's the beat along with your notes and tab, I've been playing Tumbling Dice off there, and I got it down pat flawlessly, in fact, i'm playing it right now, BARE NAKED, hee hee
05-10-03 04:32 AM
beer to sum it all up, if Keith could play it so well in standard, why did he play them in open G?


Just so Taylor could play solos?
05-10-03 05:02 AM
Child of the Moon What have I been playing lately? Other than my own stuff, the rotation has included Jim Reeves' "There's a Heartache Following Me" (ala PT's version), "You Win Again," "Zip Mouth Angel," Townshend's "Greyhound Girl," and lots of Chuck Berry style stuff.

Wish I could help you with the other question - it's one I've been asking myself for a while!
05-10-03 07:27 AM
Zeeta The reason he plays it in open G is that there is a certain ring that you get from playing it in a different tuning eg G or E. In EnR Circus JJF is played very well in standard tuning but in my opinion is not as good as when it is played in open E/G - The B and E string ring out loudly when playing in an open tuning you don't get this effect when in standard. So the reason JJF is played in standard in RnR Circus is anyones guess but this is the reason why Keith usually plays and prefers to play JJF in an open tuning. Check this from Time is on Our Side website www.timeisonourside.com this is Keith's comment on JJF:

Jumpin' Jack Flash was in open E, and there's a certain ring that you need there. And what's always fascinating about open stringing is you can get these other notes ringing sympathetically, almost like a sitar, in a way. Unexpected notes ring out, and you say, Ah, there's a constant. That one can go all the way through this thing.

BUT I still don't know why he decided to play it in standard tuning in RnR circus!
05-10-03 07:36 AM
Honky Tonk Man Are the studio versions in Open G?

If not, then im guessing its because he didn't know open G then. He learnt the Open G method from Ry Cooder. (or was that Gram Parsons?) Didn't he first met him a few months later, during the Let It Bleed sessions?

Other than his slide work on "No Expectations" and his shakers on "Sympathy", i am very confused as to what Brian does. He is there for the rest of it, but you can't hear his guitar. Maybe his guitar wasn't plugged in? This is possible. They unplugged his guitar in the studio during the LIB sessions.

Alex
05-10-03 08:23 AM
Cardinal Fang Beer,

Since you are persistent about this, and since I am an "expert" (see my picture) I dusted off my copy of RnR Circus to answer your question. (Thank's by the way. It has been a while since I watched it) I DO understand your original question so allow me to "try" to answer it.

Let's break it down by the two songs:

QUOTE> "Did he play them in standard so he could make up for Brian's complete lack of effort in the Circus? That is my guess."

Regarding JJF, your theory does NOT hold water. If you watch that song again, Brian is playing EXACTLY what Keith is playing. What I'm getting at is this: If you are going to say there was a lack of effort on Brian's part on JJF, you would have to say the EXACT same thing on Keith's because they ARE playing the EXACT same thing. Watch it again if you don't believe me. Brian IS keeping up with the chords. In FACT (as I stated already) they are both playing the EXACT same "A" chord for example. Keith is playing it at the 5th fret, so is Brian. As opposed to say Keith playing it at the 5th fret and Brian playing it at the 9th fret (like Ronnie) so that they can get slightly "different" "A" chords. Keith and Brian are playing the EXACT same chords at the exact same positions.

As far as a solo goes for that take of JJF, there really ISN'T one other than a basic 3 note "box bend" and unfortunately you CAN'T tell which of the two is playing it. (near the end you can ALMOST tell but Mick's ass get's in the way !) From the identical chord positions that I already mentioned earlier, either one of those two could have played that minimal solo. It's not that "flashy" of a solo.

I realize Beer that this doesn't "factually" answer your question ! Bare with me.

The second song Y.C.A.G.W.Y.W. "may" be a little more revealing answer wise. I say that because Keith & Brian ARE actually playing different stuff. In this song Keith IS playing the solo and YES I would have to agree that he played that one in standard tuning purely because of the solo. Let's be honest as fellow guitarists here beer. Up to the point of Beggars Banquet (IMO) Keith's guitar solos were at best "adequate". It wasn't until the songs that were recorded for BB that Keith started to actually do solo's that were not just the same old "Chuck Berry "6 note" box scale" (if you are a good guitarist beer then I know you will know EXACTLY what I'm talking about !) I think that because of Keith's newfound 1968 solo "prowess" he wanted to show it off. Also IMO by 1968 Brian's interest in guitar solos was just not there. IMO he was more interested in other instruments by then. His solo on No Expectations is great but it's not something that Brian couldn't have also played in 1965 as well. It's not like he just "woke up" for one song and then went back to sleep. It's because Keith wanted to do most of the solos and IMO Keith's slide solos are at best, "basic".

Back to your original question now. My answer to you is only a theory. A theory that can be partially supported by the stuff I already said earlier. I think that for the sake of "filming" they wanted to minimalize any sort of gear swapping. (remember this was 1968) Let's look at the set list:
Songs 1 & 2 Keith uses his Gibson Black Beauty
Song 3 switch's to Acoustic
Songs 4 & 5 Keith uses his Gibson Black Beauty
Song 6 is prerecorded.

Basically Keith only has to make TWO guitar swaps.

Had Keith switched to open tuned guitars for the two songs you asked about it would look like this:

Song 1 Keith uses open E guitar
Song 2 Keith SWITCHES to Standard tuning guitar
Song 3 Keith SWITCHES to Acoustic guitar
Song 4 Keith SWITCHES to open G guitar with capo 5th fret
Song 5 Keith SWITCHES to Standard tuning guitar

Too many swaps. That's part of my theory.
I also subscribe to the person who suggested that Keith has switched back to open tuned guitars later on, on later tours because he had Mick T & Ronnie to rely on and also due to maybe "being under the influence and it's way easier to play" or laziness, or whatever. (?)

I LOVE KEITH and am one of his many guitar "deciples". (Believe me, I can play Keith better than Keith can) but when I say "laziness" what I mean is if you think Keith's giving 110 percent EVERY night in playing EVERY song, I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Put it this way, when YOU go to your job every day, every week, I'm sure you do a "good" job and on some days you do a "great job" but you are NOT giving 110 percent EVERY SINGLE FUCKING MINUTE. (Nobody does) Keith is no exception. It always kills me when I read a fans review of "their gig" that they went to and many times the fan will state something like, "It was the best show I've ever seen them do, maybe the best show they have EVER done" etc. Then when you or I listen to the bootleg it's only an "average" performance when compared to other shows from the same tour. You don't think The Stones realize they DON'T have to give 110 percent EVERY night ? That the "just being there" factor works WONDERS on us fans perception of how "great" they played that night ? Unless the show is being filmed or something it's just another night at the office for them. I know because I have the same job they do ! (though my "offices" and paychecks are a lot smaller !) I think Rock and Roll Circus was a "special" event for the Stones and Keith wanted to play well. THAT'S why he didn't swap guitars five different times. That's why I think he didn't take any unnessecary chances and stayed in standard tuning. It's only a theory but I like it.

In a nutshell beer, your question has no "definitive" answer. Only Keith would know for sure but I think my answer and several of the others here are probably correct. That's my 2 cents.

What song's am I playing right now ? I'm recording an album right now and doing 98 percent my own stuff but the other night I layed down the basic tracks for Rocks Off. Maybe I'll use it, maybe I won't ? Maybe I'll donate it for the next covers comp here ?

To the person who asked about "my united states of whatever", the artist is Liam Lynch.

I hope this helps you beer ?

Later, Cardinal Fang
05-13-03 06:11 AM
SirMuddy Hi... I'll try to give my little contribution...
JJF R7R Circus... Keith do solo (little but savage bends) at the end... it's clear at 2:52... IMHO Keith swith JJF to 5 strings for the 1972 tour... Before that JJF sound always muddy and rougher (Hyde Park, Get yer, hamburg 71, London RoundHouse 71... YCAGWYW recording wasn't finish when they do R&R Circus... Keith choose to play it on 5 string when they include it on tour list in 72. and what I'm palying by now... Can't your hear me knocking, wild horses, Happy, Sweet Virginia, some clapton, Dylan & Marley too.... on ly on G 5-strings tuning! =)
05-13-03 06:30 AM
SirMuddy MMMMMmm Hyde Park JJF is in open tuning... maybe G (5 or 6 strings)... so my little theory go down.... Keith swith it to open in 69... But if I remember well... the single (JJF) is in open D... standard tuning for RR circus... Open G after while... Anyway, I rather playing it in open G... in A (I know what a disgrace) no capot it makes AA G A G4 G A G4...
05-13-03 08:22 AM
Mathijs Ok, and here's the answer, provided to you by Mick Taylor himself (and a bit by me). First of some remarks by me. Richards didn't play in any open tuning before Hyde Park, where he started with open G -but still with the low E-string on the guitar. Jumping Jack Flash at the NME awards in 1968 also featured Keith in standard tuning. Second, if you watch Brian Jones's amp during JJF at the R&R Circus you can see it is SWITCHED OFF (the light is off and the switch is at the OFF position). Keith's black Gibson Les Paul Custom is NOT a black Beauty, but a Custom. The black Beauty was only available from 1955 to 1957, and featured a P90 pick-up at the neck. The frets on these were the "fretless Wonders". In 1957, the custom was introduced with 3 PAF's and standard medium fret wire. This Custom model was never called Black Beauty. Last, there was plenty of time to switch gear between songs, as it was a constant wait between songs. Even I play with 4 different guitars on stage, I don't have a roadie, but I have enough time to change guitars. But now the answer by Mick taylor, as said in various interviews:

Before the Hyde Park concert Taylor had a discussion with Keith about open tunings live on stage as Keith never dared to play live with open tunings, as he was affraid to be out of tune. Taylor did have experience with open E on stage, and he motivated Keith to have different guitars on stage with different tunings. Keith was still afraid to go for it, but in the end they did at the Hyde Park concert -which was a disaster tuning wise. Taylor even says they all had a laugh about the idee of having an electronical device with which you can tune a guitar -unthinkable in 1969! For the 1969 tour, Keith played JJF, HTW and SFM in open G, but not always succesful: most recordings of SFM feature a terribly out of tune Keith Richards.

So, this is the reason: keith played standard tuing at the R&R Circus for tuning reasons. And if you listen to Brian's slide during No Expectations you can hear keith is right: Brian is terribly out of tune.

Mathijs

05-13-03 05:44 PM
SirMuddy Thanks Mathijs... it was great reading... By the way... Someone here know when Keith took off the E string.... I guess for 1972... but when...?
05-13-03 07:50 PM
beer Thanks for the info everyone. So that probably explains why Keith brought Ted Newman Jones along on the '72 tour.
Mathijs, if I remember correctly, weren't you trying to find Ted Newman Jones a while back? Did you ever get in contact with him?
05-14-03 02:22 AM
Cardinal Fang
quote:
Mathijs wrote:
Keith's black Gibson Les Paul Custom is NOT a black Beauty, but a Custom. The black Beauty was only available from 1955 to 1957, and featured a P90 pick-up at the neck. The frets on these were the "fretless Wonders". In 1957, the custom was introduced with 3 PAF's and standard medium fret wire. This Custom model was never called Black Beauty. Last, there was plenty of time to switch gear between songs, as it was a constant wait between songs. Even I play with 4 different guitars on stage, I don't have a roadie, but I have enough time to change guitars.


Mathijs,

The "Black Beauty" was also available in 1954.

You are correct about medium fret wire in 1957 but it was changed to large fret wire in 1959.

I ALSO play with 4 guitars on stage BUT Mathijs you and I are not playing in 1968 but in 2003. You and I are also patched through digital tuners too !!!


As your own post already pointed out, 1968 was WAY before the invention of the strobe tuner and IMO making all of those guitar swaps would have been murder. I DO agree with you & Mick Taylor about the "tuning issues".

I agree with your other points Mathijs.

You still have my email ? Keep in touch Mathijs.

Later, Jimmy

P.S. You need to get your own roadie ! Mine is named Mike. Been with me for at least 10 years now.

P.P.S. Email me with your opinions on P-100's, I have an extra one and I'm thinking of dropping it into one of my spare Tele's.
05-14-03 08:52 AM
Mathijs Yes, I did find Newman Jones, and we had some contact through E-mail. You can still order the same guitars that he build for Keith (2 in 1973, and 1 in 1977). He last saw Keith during the B2B tour backstage, and he occaisionally does some work for Bill Wyman.

But, Newman Jones was taken on the 1972 tour to maintain Keith's guitars, but NOT to tune them during concerts! I don't know when the first electronic tuners came into the market, but even on the 1975 and 1976 tours keith had to tune his guitars on stage if they were out of tune (the desperate tune-up twins, as jagger calls them in LA in 1975). In 1969, 1970 and 1971 Keith had a bunch of guitars lying behind him, and he just grabbed them himself and tuned them. This is why, especially on the 1969 and 1970 tours most concerts were plagued by tuning sessions!

Cardinal, I don't recall any mail, maybe you send it again. About the P-100: I once had a Les Paul Special with 2 P-100, and I really didn't like the sound. It is way too modern, with way too much middle, and not enough highs. It sounded as if you ja have the presence on your amp turned to 10 constantly.

Mathijs

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