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Topic: Brian & Keith Return to archive
5th May 2007 11:09 AM
Jimishelter Hi, does anyone know with any degree of certainty who played lead guitar on the following Stones tracks?

Confessin' the Blues
2120 Michigan Ave.
Empty Heart
Down Home Girl

My friend is convinced that these all feature Brian. I'm not certain. I do know that I have never seen any films of Brian soloing other than the ones where he plays slide.

If you know of any Brian lead parts, help me out, ok? Thanks a lot!
5th May 2007 11:30 AM
fireontheplatter gazza will know the answer to this...
he will be around shortly

he is pretty knowledgeable in this subject.
5th May 2007 12:08 PM
Jimishelter Excellent! Unbelievably, my friend and I have been having this conversation since the 70's.
I certainly don't want to denigrate Brian's guitar playing. He always played his parts with authority and a serious sense of groove. I just always thought it was Keith doing the solos. On the other hand, "Empty Heart" has that cool rhythm part that makes me think of Keith. I can't wait to hear other opinions.
5th May 2007 12:23 PM
Philip Most of this is from memory so make of it what you want.

Confessin' the Blues
Guitar solo's and lead fills by Keith
Brian's plays rhythm and does those rough/fast rhythmic fills. I reckon he also plays the harp on this one, maybe an overdub.

2120 Michigan Ave.
Guitar solo's by keith
Superlative harmonica playing by Brian

Empty Heart
Guitar Solo's by keith
Harmonica (I recall it having one?) by Brian

Down Home Girl
Guitar solo's by keith

Brian really wasn't a soloist except on slide guitar and harmonica.


[Edited by Philip]
5th May 2007 01:05 PM
Jimishelter Thanks, Phillip. It so happens that I agree with you on every track. The problem is...my friend argues that I/we can't prove that.

I'm fairly certain this whole discussion started because of the oft circulated track"Stewed & Keefed". The firdst time we heard it, it was listed as "Brain's Blues", prompting my friend to speculate that it was indeed Brian playing lead.

Me? I think it's Keith. But I don't have anyway to convince him.

It's all good natured, of course...
5th May 2007 01:24 PM
Philip If we can't prove it's Keith, he can't prove it's Brian! :-()

But seriously, Keith's playing style includes solo's and lead fills, Brian played the basic chuck berry type rhythms, picking chords ala time is on my side, and lead slide.

He also played the odd 'riff' here and there such as the main parts on King Bee, Mona, The Last Time and the high part on get off of my cloud.

There is ZERO footage that I have seen where Brian actually plays lead blues guitar as heard on the aformentioned tracks, but there is plenty of Keith!

Check out the TAMI show, live at NME awards etc etc!

I am a big fan of Brian's contribution to the stones, and he's a big influence on my own playing! Saying he dosn't play lead on those tracks is NOT putting down his musicianship...

I know people can be touchy about these subjects!





[Edited by Philip]
5th May 2007 07:23 PM
GhostofBrianJones Oh good night here we go. Brian played rhythm and lead guitar and so did
Keith. For the most part Brian was rhythm and Keith was lead. Listen to
It's All Over Now, The Last Time, and the early songs more closely. Keith and
Brian did what they called "guitar weaving" in a lot of their songs together.
Brian was a brilliant slide guitarist. On many occasions Brian played the harmonica ( also called the harp?) and the guitar on a lof of early Stones songs.
I listened to those albums so many times when I was a teenager and still do
I could almost see who was playing what. A lot of times the musical instrument
credits they give on an album are wrong. Believe me they have been wrong.
Listen to 2120 South Michigan Avenue- I have the 3:39 version and it is more
brilliant than you can possibly imagine. The same on More Stoned Than You'll
Ever Be discs. Philip is a true Brian fan. He understands all of this.
6th May 2007 01:51 AM
Jimishelter [quote]GhostofBrianJones wrote:
Oh good night here we go. Brian played rhythm and lead guitar and so did
Keith. For the most part Brian was rhythm and Keith was lead. Listen to
It's All Over Now, The Last Time, and the early songs more closely.


Man, I don't know if I can listen to them any closer! I have them on vinyl, the London CD's AND the newer Abkco versions. I've listened with headphones, in cars, and on home stereos. I'm very familiar with those tracks, trust me. I love the Rolling Stones.

But I've always wondered about those solos. Thanks!
6th May 2007 09:18 AM
kmc saw the stones perform CONFESSIN THE BLUES on clay cole show - local network musical deal in the 60's - and though it was totally lip synced to record, brian played rhythm, keith lead and mick the harmonica.
6th May 2007 09:41 AM
Zambero As far as "lead" playing goes, after 1965 Brian was the lead instrumentalist on countless tracks in which he played neither slide or harp. Sitar on "Paint It Black", "Marimabas" on "Under My Thumb", dulcimer on "Lady Jane", accordion on "Back Street Girl", the soprano sax solo on "Dandelion", mellotron on "2,000 Light Years From Home", recorder on "Ruby Tuesday", and banjo on "Cool, Calm, Collected", to name but a few.

Even though the performance photos typically show Brian and Keith both playing guitar, a closer look shows their roles to be quite specialized. At the same time, neither one of them had a monopoly on lead playing -- there seemed to be a fairly even balance when one considers the entire spectrum of instrumentation during the "Brian Jones" phase of the band.
6th May 2007 09:51 AM
mojoman brian keith
6th May 2007 10:55 AM
Jimishelter
quote:
kmc wrote:
saw the stones perform CONFESSIN THE BLUES on clay cole show - local network musical deal in the 60's - and though it was totally lip synced to record, brian played rhythm, keith lead and mick the harmonica.





THANK YOU! This is exactly the type of information I am looking for! Each part on that track is fantastic. So Brian is playing the rhythm, and all those cool turnaround licks at the end of each verse. And Keith keeps playing licks throughout.

That's one of my favorites, thanks a lot!
6th May 2007 11:10 AM
Jimishelter
quote:
Zambero wrote:
Even though the performance photos typically show Brian and Keith both playing guitar, a closer look shows their roles to be quite specialized. At the same time, neither one of them had a monopoly on lead playing -- there seemed to be a fairly even balance when one considers the entire spectrum of instrumentation during the "Brian Jones" phase of the band.




Absolutely! My original question was specifically about the guitar roles in their early blues band days. But I never cease to be amazed at Brian's seemingly effortless ability to add yet another instrument to a track to make it come alive. Even his sax playing on "You Know My Name (Look Up the Number" is excellent.

By the way, I don't consider the lead guitar parts to be the "better" parts, or Keith to be the "better" player from that era. The way the Stones arrange their songs, each part has equal value- I'm just trying to sort out each player's parts.

Make sense?


I wish I could have seen the Brian era band! I saw them with Mick Taylor twice and with Ron...jeez, lots of times! (I'm going to add that up after I have coffee!)

By the way, I'm STILL interested in knowing about any examples of Brian playing lead guitar.

Empty Heart has two guitars and a wailing harp going throughout, so there had to be some overdubbing going on. I suspect it's Brian on harp...by the way there's another example where I think the lead & rhythm playing have equal value. It's a solid groove!
[Edited by Jimishelter]
[Edited by Jimishelter]
6th May 2007 11:24 AM
Jimishelter
quote:
Philip wrote:

I am a big fan of Brian's contribution to the stones, and he's a big influence on my own playing! Saying he dosn't play lead on those tracks is NOT putting down his musicianship...

Jimishelter:
Oh, I know that. We'd have to be pretty foolish to put down Brian's musicianship! By the way, I play guitar too. Have you ever tried to copy the tone from those early albums? I'm think of the ones I mention in my initial post. The guitars on "Confessin" both have a cool, brittle quality I've never been able to duplicate. The "Around & Around" sound is a bit easier to get.

Not that I spend a lot of time copying player's exact tones. But I sure do love the way those two guitar parts sound and interact.

[quote]Philip wrote:
I know people can be touchy about these subjects!

Jimishelter:
And how! Hey, I'm just hear to learn! :-)





[Edited by Philip]


[Edited by Jimishelter]
[Edited by Jimishelter]
6th May 2007 11:38 AM
GhostofBrianJones I would have to think on which songs Brian did the lead. On The Last Time
he did the repeating guitar sound riff (if that is what it is called) and I am
sure there are many others. Maybe a good research of these early songs
and finding a reliable source with this type of information would be more
helpful. For now I suspect Brian and Keith just kind of played it back and
forth.
6th May 2007 11:54 AM
Jimishelter
quote:
GhostofBrianJones wrote:
I would have to think on which songs Brian did the lead. On The Last Time
he did the repeating guitar sound riff (if that is what it is called) and I am
sure there are many others. Maybe a good research of these early songs
and finding a reliable source with this type of information would be more
helpful. For now I suspect Brian and Keith just kind of played it back and
forth.





Man, the riff to "The Last Time" is so cool! Brian nails it. Keith takes the solo in that song though, based on the videos I've seen.

Thanks for offering up your opinions. I'm enjoying all of this discussion.
6th May 2007 12:18 PM
Philip We are just focusing on the guitar playing here huh?

Brian does not play any single line non slide guitar solo's on any song as far as I am aware. Even when they are 'weaving' he doesn't play licks like that... it's always Keith who comes out of the weave and plays the solo in the non slide guitar songs.

There is an exception of sorts... Tell Me. I think Brian plays the 'solo' on that one, but in reality it's just picking the chords.

Things like his riff on The Last Time or his high repeated line on Get Off Of My Cloud are not lead guitar necessarily. The proper term for these would be ostinato.
[Edited by Philip]
6th May 2007 12:32 PM
Jimishelter
quote:
Philip wrote:
We are just focusing on the guitar playing here huh?

Brian does not play any single line non slide guitar solo's on any song as far as I am aware. Even when they are 'weaving' he doesn't play licks like that... it's always Keith who comes out of the weave and plays the solo in the non slide guitar songs.

There is an exception of sorts... Tell Me. I think Brian plays the 'solo' on that one, but in reality it's just picking the chords.

Things like his riff on The Last Time or his high repeated line on Get Off Of My Cloud are not lead guitar necessarily. The proper term for these would be ostinato.
[Edited by Philip]





We're on the same page, Philip, thanks!
6th May 2007 11:01 PM
GhostofBrianJones Yes Philip that sounds right. But when there is no slide guitar on a song
they do weave back and forth on some songs. Sometimes it is hard to tell
who is playing what on them especially if they are weaving. On 19th Nervous
Breakdown who starts the song? Is it Keith, Brian or Bill? I know Bill plays the
bass riff which is superb and the rest is hard to tell. Speaking of Bill have
you ever seen him in the videos? He just stands there poker faced and sometime
it is so funny. I suspect he is really watching the audience I mean girls?
6th May 2007 11:19 PM
Jimishelter
quote:
GhostofBrianJones wrote:
Yes Philip that sounds right. But when there is no slide guitar on a song
they do weave back and forth on some songs. Sometimes it is hard to tell
who is playing what on them especially if they are weaving. On 19th Nervous
Breakdown who starts the song? Is it Keith, Brian or Bill?




It's Keith starting 19th Nervous Breakdown. I just watched them doing it on the Ed Sullivan Show. Brian plays the cool low string part, Keith the signature riff.

Bill sure does have that poker face down, doesn't he? I'd love to see him and John Entwhistle from the Who in a staring contest. heh heh
7th May 2007 04:50 AM
Philip Brian plays the 'Diddley Daddy' tremolo part. Really simple, but so totally right!

.......................................................

Yes they kind of weave, but Brian's parts tend to be the more rythmic based and/or based on the lower notes whilst Keith does the 'solo' lead licks.
7th May 2007 08:50 AM
Gazza
quote:
fireontheplatter wrote:
gazza will know the answer to this...
he will be around shortly

he is pretty knowledgeable in this subject.



far from it. I'm not a musician and dont have much of an ear for who plays what. Thanks for the vote of confidence though!
7th May 2007 10:17 AM
Mel Belli
quote:
Jimishelter wrote:

Bill sure does have that poker face down, doesn't he? I'd love to see him and John Entwhistle from the Who in a staring contest. heh heh



I'm pretty sure the dead guy would win that one.
7th May 2007 12:47 PM
killerbitch I think the dead guy's eyes are closed.
7th May 2007 01:00 PM
Jimishelter
quote:
Mel Belli wrote:


I'm pretty sure the dead guy would win that one.




HA HA HA!! You may be right, but I've seen Bill look like he could give him a run for his money! Have you seen that footage in "Charlie Is My Darling" where Bill just continues playing away while the onstage riot is going on? Stone face indeed...
JS
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