After the senseless act of a mad man at VT it is time to get serious about gun control. Or is it? Liberal activists will always use a story like this to advance their cause,but as is so often the case,the facts rarely support their overreaching hysteria. The fact is that this murderous bastard should never have been able to purchase the guns to begin with. However,it was not gun laws that allowed him to acquire the two guns. No it was the fact that his medical record was locked from the public. In Virginia if you have a history of mental illness you can forget about buying a gun. It will come up as a red flag when your registration is run. In this case the courts failed to adequately notify anyone! So he came up as clean when he went top the gun store.
It's also a proven fact that cities and towns that allow concealed weapons permits have a starkly lower violent crime rate than cities that don't allow these types of permits. Don't believe me? Well look up the stats,but in the mean time read this.
As the nation debates whether more guns or fewer can prevent tragedies like the Virginia Tech Massacre, a notable anniversary passed last month in a Georgia town that witnessed a dramatic plunge in crime and violence after mandating residents to own firearms.
In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting as a victim, attacker or defender.
The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.
Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available for the year 2005 show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.
By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city's crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township's crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.
This was not what some predicted.
In a column titled "Gun Town USA," Art Buchwald suggested Kennesaw would soon become a place where routine disagreements between neighbors would be settled in shootouts. The Washington Post mocked Kennesaw as "the brave little city soon to be pistol-packing capital of the world." Phil Donahue invited the mayor on his show.
Reuters, the European news service, today revisited the Kennesaw controversy following the Virginia Tech Massacre.
Police Lt. Craig Graydon said: "When the Kennesaw law was passed in 1982 there was a substantial drop in crime and we have maintained a really low crime rate since then. We are sure it is one of the lowest (crime) towns in the metro area." Kennesaw is just north of Atlanta.
The Reuters story went on to report: "Since the Virginia Tech shootings, some conservative U.S. talk show hosts have rejected attempts to link the massacre to the availability of guns, arguing that had students been allowed to carry weapons on campus someone might have been able to shoot the killer."
Virginia Tech, like many of the nation's schools and college campuses, is a so-called "gun-free zone," which Second Amendment supporters say invites gun violence especially from disturbed individuals seeking to kill as many victims as possible.
Cho Seung-Hui murdered 32 and wounded another 15 before turning his gun on himself.
19th April 2007 10:24 PM
tumbled
The killer bought the glock gun from the internet according to fox and he lied at the va. store about never being incarcerated for mental illness (he wasn't really) so whats' the use in the background check as it is now? and even then, he could have got a gun from someone else. so there's no way to avoid this stuff anyway when so many guns are available to the public anyway, legal or illegal. you can't legislate safety. people get angry people use guns simple as that
19th April 2007 10:41 PM
Riffhard
quote:tumbled wrote:
The killer bought the glock gun from the internet according to fox and he lied at the va. store about never being incarcerated for mental illness (he wasn't really) so whats' the use in the background check as it is now? and even then, he could have got a gun from someone else. so there's no way to avoid this stuff anyway when so many guns are available to the public anyway, legal or illegal. you can't legislate safety. people get angry people use guns simple as that
The courts of Virginia had already delt with this sick bastard back in 2005 but the judge decided to allow him to seek out patient mental health care. This was after many instances of his unstable behaviour. Had the judge ordered him to be evaluated in an in patient mental healthcare facility then by Va. law it would have shown on his record. Because he was given the velvet glove treatment even after exhibiting some very disturbing behavior he was free to lie and thus avoid any red flags when obtaining the guns.
I tend to agree with you though about the fact that he was going to cause harm regardless,but had the proper measures been taken he would never have the legal right to own a gun. Of course hindsite being 20/20 that is an easy answer. If nothing else I think this should make us look a lot closer to people that are acting out like this guy was. There were rad flags everywhere.
The old adage is very true though. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. The same could be said of cars being driven by drunks.
Riffy
20th April 2007 07:52 AM
Maxlugar
When will we wake up and ban all hammers! Silver ones!
...and those loathsome Beatles....
20th April 2007 07:58 AM
FotiniD
To start with, why should guns be allowed and free to buy (with minimal restrictions) is totally beyond me and to be honest, imo, beyond any logic. Why do most of these type of shootings take place in the States? I think it has to do with the gun legislation. If they could just ban them, I think that would be a huge step to solve the problem.
20th April 2007 08:33 AM
Jumacfly
quote:FotiniD wrote:
To start with, why should guns be allowed and free to buy (with minimal restrictions) is totally beyond me and to be honest, imo, beyond any logic. Why do most of these type of shootings take place in the States? I think it has to do with the gun legislation. If they could just ban them, I think that would be a huge step to solve the problem.
I understand your statement princess, but if you remember the alcool prohibition the result was exactly the opposite.
20th April 2007 08:54 AM
gimmekeef
Criminals dont obey laws and besides stop selling all new guns now theres still enough in the hands of people to kill us all....The "drugged" horses have left the barn on this one....
20th April 2007 09:13 AM
Maxlugar
What is never written about in the Dirty, Filthy, Loathsome, Liberal Media are the statistics showing how many times a crime or murder is thwarted by people with legal firearms in this country.
It's a hell of a lot more than the extremely rare case of a school shooting like this.
Freedom baby!
20th April 2007 09:47 AM
tumbled
I think Mace is underrated as a protective device..
and tasers. why all the bloodthirstiness. I think a far ranging mace device might have knocked this guy out or a mace grenade. yea
[Edited by tumbled]
20th April 2007 10:19 AM
Riffhard
What many Europeans and others seem to be totally unaware of is the true history of the USA. For that very reason they tend to slag us off as an ignorant violent country that has little or no culture. The truth is nothing could be further from the truth.
This nation was born of revolution. We threw off the shackles of a monarchy that unfairly taxed the colonies with zero representation. We then forged west to expand our borders. All of this done with guns by our side. It was done out of necessity. The very values that we as Americans hold dearest is the notion of "...for the people,by the people,of the people." For this reason the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution grants us the right "to keep and bear arms". It is a checks and balances system.
Imagine if the college students in Tiananmen Square had these same rights? Imagine if the Russians had these rights during the years of Stalin? Or if they had been granted inside Iraq during Saddam's tyranny? What happened in these countries will never happen in the USA for this very reason. The citizenry would never allow it.
Responsible gun ownership always as and always will deter violent crime. It also lessens the chance of a tyrannical government from ruling the populace with an iron fist.
Remember this. We Americans created a new country from the lessons of our old countries.
Riffy
20th April 2007 10:24 AM
Maxlugar
quote:Riffhard wrote:
What many Europeans and others seem to be totally unaware of is the true history of the USA. For that very reason they tend to slag us off as an ignorant violent country that has little or no culture. The truth is nothing could be further from the truth.
This nation was born of revolution. We threw off the shackles of a monarchy that unfairly taxed the colonies with zero representation. We then forged west to expand our borders. All of this done with guns by our side. It was done out of necessity. The very values that we as Americans hold dearest is the notion of "...for the people,by the people,of the people." For this reason the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution grants us the right "to keep and bear arms". It is a checks and balances system.
Imagine if the college students in Tiananmen Square had these same rights? Imagine if the Russians had these rights during the years of Stalin? Or if they had been granted inside Iraq during Saddam's tyranny? What happened in these countries will never happen in the USA for this very reason. The citizenry would never allow it.
Responsible gun ownership always as and always will deter violent crime. It also lessens the chance of a tyrannical government from ruling the populace with an iron fist.
Remember this. We Americans created a new country from the lessons of our old countries.
Riffy
Word Riffy!
I just bought a gun that shoots dozens of little guns, which stick to the perps body and in turn fire 10 rounds a second directly into the body.
The liberals will need to take this out of my cold, dead hands!
20th April 2007 10:31 AM
egon
quote:Riffhard wrote:
Remember this. We Americans created a new country from the lessons of our old countries.
Riffy
so basically you arer saying that the US is the best country in the world...?
20th April 2007 10:35 AM
Lord Homosex
To make excuses for liberal gunlaws is beyond me. The number of shooting deaths in Europe is a tiny percentage compared to USA. May have to do with the laws. The law did come first - THEN came all the guns. And yes, then came the movies, the rapvideos, the whole culture that glorifies guns, but first came the gunlaws.
20th April 2007 10:51 AM
Saint Sway
Riffy WTF??
when the 1st thread about the killings was posted here you immediately went in to your right wing gun spew. You couldnt wait. Not even to pause a second to note how horrible this event was. And now this.
give it a rest
not only are you way off base but its classless
go spew on the NRA board
20th April 2007 10:54 AM
Riffhard
quote:Lord Homosex wrote:
The number of shooting deaths in Europe is a tiny percentage compared to USA.
True,but the murder rate is consistent per capita in Europe and the USA! The USA's violent crime rate has been trending down for the last 15 years running. Plus read the linked article I posted earlier in this thread. Why is gun crime more of a problem in Jersey City,New Jersey than it is in Dallas,Texas? I mean following the liberal mindset the tighter gun laws in New Jersey(some of the strictest in the nation) should off set the rate of gun related deaths,right? Not quite. Dallas has a population ten times that of Jersey City yet the gun related deaths per capita are over twenty times higher in Jersey City! Why is that? Short answer. Because in Dallas criminals are always worried that they may end up on the wrong side of a gun.
If I lived in New Orleans after Katrina I sure as hell would be thankful to have my 2nd Amendment Rights. I'm sure most here would be as well.
Riffy
20th April 2007 11:02 AM
Riffhard
quote:Saint Sway wrote:
Riffy WTF??
when the 1st thread about the killings was posted here you immediately went in to your right wing gun spew. You couldnt wait. Not even to pause a second to note how horrible this event was. And now this.
give it a rest
not only are you way off base but its classless
go spew on the NRA board
Back off fucknut. The fact is that what happened at VT is a tragedy that transcends politics for me! Yet it took no more than 20 minutes of news coverage the morning of this tragedy before the liberal hoards were screaming for more gun laws! That is the point I'm making. That you can't seem to accept that is your own problem. The very title of this thread made rather clear of it's content. I have been nothing but genial in my posts within this thread. I raised the topic because I value the opinions of many here that I have come to know over the years.
Riffy
20th April 2007 11:04 AM
Riffhard
quote:egon wrote:
so basically you arer saying that the US is the best country in the world...?
LOL! Not at all egon! True,I take great pride in my country. However,I have lived overseas as well and I have a great appreciation for other countries and cultures. Even France!
Riffy
20th April 2007 11:08 AM
egon
quote:Riffhard wrote:
LOL! Not at all egon! True,I take great pride in my country. However,I have lived overseas as well and I have a great appreciation for other countries and cultures. Even France!
Riffy
ok, you're still my friend! :-)
20th April 2007 11:12 AM
glencar
quote:FotiniD wrote:
To start with, why should guns be allowed and free to buy (with minimal restrictions) is totally beyond me and to be honest, imo, beyond any logic. Why do most of these type of shootings take place in the States? I think it has to do with the gun legislation. If they could just ban them, I think that would be a huge step to solve the problem.
Oh, dear simplistic FotiniD! Rampage shootings happen all over the world. And rampages sans guns are usually more brutal. Think Cambodia & Rwanda. I'm not a gun nut by any means (I've never owned own & indeed I've never shot one!) but I don't think a strict gun ban is the answer either. BTW There have been would-be rampages like this where one of the putative victims happened to be armed & stopped the gunman in his tracks.
20th April 2007 11:13 AM
glencar
quote:Lord Homosex wrote:
To make excuses for liberal gunlaws is beyond me. The number of shooting deaths in Europe is a tiny percentage compared to USA. May have to do with the laws. The law did come first - THEN came all the guns. And yes, then came the movies, the rapvideos, the whole culture that glorifies guns, but first came the gunlaws.
60 Minutes is apparently doing a story this week about hip hop & guns & murder investigations that go nowhere. Should be informative...
20th April 2007 11:15 AM
Maxlugar
Does anyone know if Joey makes eye contact with you when you talk to him? Has he writen any violent and gory plays recently?
I'm just saying...
20th April 2007 11:16 AM
glencar
quote:Maxlugar wrote:
Does anyone know if Joey makes eye contact with you when you talk to him? Has he writen any violent and gory plays recently?
I'm just saying...
I think certain others are actually on higher alert status for Homeland Security but I can't reveal my confidential sources...
20th April 2007 11:20 AM
Moonisup
guns don't kill people, people do
20th April 2007 11:21 AM
glencar
quote:egon wrote:
so basically you arer saying that the US is the best country in the world...?
I can't see howe anyone could ever disagree...
20th April 2007 11:22 AM
Maxlugar
quote:glencar wrote:
I'm not a gun nut by any means (I've never owned own & indeed I've never shot one!)
Yes you did! And you're a damn good shot. Do not be ashamed! That Squirrel dissed you.
[Edited by Maxlugar]
20th April 2007 11:24 AM
glencar
quote:Maxlugar wrote:
Yes you did! And you're a damn good shot. Do not be ashamed! That Squirrel dissed you.
[Edited by Maxlugar]
Oh I forgot. That's what a weekend of "Jagerbombs" will do to ye!
20th April 2007 11:24 AM
egon
quote:Moonisup wrote:
guns don't kill people, people do
but guns make it so nice and easy.
the victims are practically dying by themselves
20th April 2007 11:26 AM
glencar
quote:egon wrote:
but guns make it so nice and easy.
the victims are practically dying by themselves
egon, as I noted above, I'm not a gun nut. But I respect our US Constitution & it would have to be amended in order to ban guns. This whole discussion is useless, quite frankly.
20th April 2007 01:34 PM
pdog
Riffy... I'm not going to debate any of this gun stuff, but i will point out one major flaw about USA and manifest destiny. We didn't forge west with guns at our sides. It was a genocide and the land was stolen. Revolution and war are our history, and that's cool with me, we just need to call a spade a spade and a ho a ho!
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