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| vampire |
Other groups have so many bootlegs as Stones? I was thinking I have MUCH more Stones boots than officials. And I�m not counting the live stuff.
why they have so many?
Of course, there�s alot of crap out there, but there�s also alot of good stuff, enough for...let me think...about 15 albums of the good ones? Sort of...
But I�m really clueless about. My only "pirate" album beside Stones is a Neil Young (btw, With Booker T & The MG`s, btw, great!)
[Edited by vampire] |
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| J.J.Flash |
quote:
vampire wrote:
why they have so many?
The answer is so simple, 'cause THEY ARE THE STONES, THE ONLY ROLLING "FUCKIN'" STONES.
Vampire, I saw some months ago, some bootlegs from AC/DC on "Mercado Livre" site. Maybe there are some great stuff, like a double CD from Ballbreaker tour. |
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| J.J.Flash |
Hoje irei para o escrit�rio, e a mo�a que trabalha do meu lado na Computa��o n�o vai ao servi�o, vai viajar. O gravador ser� s� meu hoje  . POr gentileza, me mande a m�sica hoje, pois s� terei hoje pra tentar gravar o R.S.V.P Revisited. N�o esque�a, track 20 - Parachute Woman (Clapton on Lead Guitar).
Grato desde j�! |
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| T&A |
Believe it or not the number of Led Zep boots blows away the Stones. Beatles, too... |
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| steel driving hammer |
quote:
T&A wrote:
Believe it or not the number of Led Zep boots blows away the Stones. Beatles, too...
No offense T&A but how can that be?
The Stones have done 3 times as much live shows as Zepp.
3 times as many studio albums as well.
Stones have much more bootleg material than Zepp.
Anyway you look at it, thats what I think. |
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| Zeeta |
IMO Led Zep are better in the studio - the live stuff seems unimpressive...
(esp. when compared to the STONES!) |
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| steel driving hammer |
quote:
Zeeta wrote:
IMO Led Zep are better in the studio - the live stuff seems unimpressive...
(esp. when compared to the STONES!)
Strange but I was finished w/ Zepp the same day I finished High School.
Over the hills and far away! LOL. |
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| T&A |
The Stones have indeed done more shows; that's not the question. I'm talking about commercial product (not homegrown recordings distributed en masse) - I have a buddy who has been in the boot business for 30 years - Zep has far and away the most commercial boots in circulation, followed by the Beatles. The Stones aren't even in the same stratosphere....
Regarding the Zep live comment - I would echo that. The problem for Zep live was that poor Jimmy was trying to recreate the multiple guitar layers he laid down in the studio - but he only has 10 fingers. |
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| Nasty Habits |
IF we're talking about commercial product then Dylan probably outweighs the Stones as well -- a certain record store I know about does FAR better with Dylan "fan clubs" than with any other artist you can to name. |
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| Zeeta |
true...
I like their studio work very much what JP did with his guitars in the studio is genius - slowing down notes on the recordings etc.
[Edited by Zeeta] |
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| T&A |
Nasty:
True. I said the Stones were well behind Zep/Beatles in terms of #'s of commercial boots. - there are many, many others that outsell the Stones as well...in fact, the Stones aren't among the top 20 in terms of sales of boots. The Stones avid fans are rabid, but there really aren't that many of us to be brutally honest.... |
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| vampire |
quote:
J.J.Flash wrote:
Hoje irei para o escrit�rio, e a mo�a que trabalha do meu lado na Computa��o n�o vai ao servi�o, vai viajar. O gravador ser� s� meu hoje . POr gentileza, me mande a m�sica hoje, pois s� terei hoje pra tentar gravar o R.S.V.P Revisited. N�o esque�a, track 20 - Parachute Woman (Clapton on Lead Guitar).
Grato desde j�!
Dear Jay Jay,
Its been sent other day I told you. Several days ago. I will have to check if i still have the new file. I leave it in the hospital. And now i go there only about 17h or so....
Well, we�ll see.
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| Nasty Habits |
T & A:
I think it has something to do with the sheer amount of product already out there. The average consumer doesn't even know where to start with the Stones catalog, and there are already so many official live albums out there, regardless of the relative quality of boots.
Zep's catalog is easily acquireable in ten quick purchases, but if you're a fan, you apparently want more. Why, I have no idea. I HATE Zep boots.
But it can be tough convincing someone that in addition to all the official stuff, you need this show from '73 and these unfinished songs from '78 as well. Once you do, you've got an addict, but the average off the streeter has heard much more about unreleased Dylan material, bootlegs being far more central to his particular legend.
[Edited by Nasty Habits] |
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| littleredrooster |
Vamp,
The Stones have 12 legs (if you include Chucky) so they must have many boots! |
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| TheSavageYoungXyzzy |
The Stones have so many boots because they've been around for 40 years. It's that simple. Even if they were all just live shows, the number would still be staggering. Then tack on studio outtakes and unreleased demos, and you've got yourself a pile of bootlegs miles high.
The Beatles because of their popularity do have a plethora of boots released, but a surprisingly vast number of them are merely repeats of other ones. The Black Album, featuring highlights from the Get Back Sessions, and the monumental Thirty Days, featuring all known recordings from those same sessions, are good examples. There must be hundreds of bootlegs on those same thirty days, with the same amount of repeats.
Zeeta - exactly right. Zeppelin live sounds boring because A) They weren't so good of a jam band that they could play one song for half an hour without everyone falling asleep and B) Jimmy Page does not have ten arms and therefore cannot play all the guitar parts he does on the studio recordings, giving several awesome numbers an empty feel live.
And after about 90 minutes I think I'd get sick to death of Robert Plant.
-tSYX --- Hey, hey, you got me rockin', now... |
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| Madafaka |
Stones have so many boots 'cause we love that! |
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| jb |
Unfortunately T&A is correct...Zepplin, Beatles, eagles, etc substantially more commercially successful than the Stones...The album sales of the Stones, let alone boots, is deminimus compared to those groups. It's really amazing they have done as well as they have considering they only have a hardcore base of probably less than 500,000 fans. I mean the greatest hit album did well(2 million sales x 2 discs) but it does not even come close to the Eagles at 26 million and counting. Lets face , while we know they are the greatest, most people really could care less. |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
As far as quantity of boots, released by a commercial bootleg label...the Stones are not even in the top 5.
Dylan, Zep, Neil Young, Springsteen, Dead, Beatles, maybe even Bowie....all have much more product out there than the Stones. The number of Dead boots is mind boggling....same with Dylan.
For the life of me, I can't understand the Zep thing. There are 10 or 15 versions of THE SAME FUCKING SHOW! And there are THOUSANDS of people who try to collect EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! And here's the joke....THEY SUCK! I just can't understand. Zep was flat out BORING as a live band. All dogs within a 20 mile radius start howling when Plant starts screeching. |
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| Factory Girl |
Well, SS that is your opinion on Led Zep. We'll just disagree on that.
I think that Dead and Dylan have more unofficial stuff out there.
One of my Biggest suprises in the unofficial area has been Mad Season (Seattle based super-group with 1 studio release). At first I thought they did only 1 live show, then 3 live shows. Well, its a bit more...surprisingly. |
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| T&A |
The reason why there is such a discrepancy between sales of legit and illegitimate product and tour sales is that the preponderance of folks who go to see the show aren't really there for the music, per se, as all of "us" diehards are. They are there for the "star appeal" of these rock icons/legends. They don't go home after the show to listen to more Stones - many do not even own any of the music.
This is why the Stones continue to put out tours and not albums. They understand their place in the marketplace and the drivers behind that. |
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| steel driving hammer |
I'm going to make this simple...
There is a bootleg of almost every show the Stones have done.
They have done 3 times as many shows than Zep did.
Therefore, 3 times as many bootlegs.
I'd rank it like this, 1st = The Dead. 2nd = Dylan. 3rd = Da Boys.
Now gimme some pizza dammit. |
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| Zeeta |
Other people suck ass |
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| Moonisup |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
For the life of me, I can't understand the Zep thing. There are 10 or 15 versions of THE SAME FUCKING SHOW! And there are THOUSANDS of people who try to collect EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! And here's the joke....THEY SUCK! I just can't understand. Zep was flat out BORING as a live band. All dogs within a 20 mile radius start howling when Plant starts screeching.
I never liked zep.
well Look at the La show of 1975 haha many versions
still it amazes me that there are so litte boots of the stones in the studio! look at the fag four!
One of those reasons must be that they almost recorded chord by chord
I want more outtakes!! |
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| T&A |
SDH:
You and I aren't on the same page with regard to the definition of a "bootleg". I'm not talking about the number of shows in trade circulation. I'm talking about commercial boots in the marketplace. The Stones aren't even on the radar screen relative to Zep and the Beatles by this definition. |
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| steel driving hammer |
quote:
T&A wrote:
SDH:
The Stones aren't even on the radar screen relative to Zep and the Beatles by this definition.
Radar Love...
Cheers brother.
But, all I know is, the Stones have more bootlegs than Zep. |
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| Cardinal Fang |
quote:
steel driving hammer wrote:
But, all I know is, the Stones have more bootlegs than Zep.
SDH,
Once again you don't have a FUCKING CLUE what you are talking about and "spellbound" us all with a demonstration of your ignorance.
It is a FACT that both the Beatles AND Led Zeppelin have more bootlegs than the Rolling Stones.
According to Hotwacks (which is THE bootleg bible) page "E", and also according to the book "Bootleg: The Secret History Of The Other Recording Industry" page 10, the Top Five list of the most bootlegged artist's are:
01 - The Beatles
02 - Led Zeppelin
03 - The Rolling Stones
04 - Bob Dylan
05 - Bruce Springsteen
Now I know it goes against your nature Tony but could you please quit acting like a drunken jack ass about this, OK ?
Later, Cardinal Fang |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Hey Cardybaby...
What is the definition of "bootleg" that these sources used?
I don't know much about Dead releases. All I know is that about half of all the trade lists that people send me have at least 5 pages of Dead shows. I take it that these are not considered as bootlegs, but rather as something different? They must be considered as something else, because if they are considered as bootlegs...the Dead would clearly rank in at either #1 or #2. If a band allows the taping of shows, does that mean it's not a bootleg anymore?
That list really surprises me. I would not have even expected the Stones to be in the top 5.
I'm sure a lot of you have seen some of these trade lists. It's always the same....you can tell right away who the people you are trading with are into. And each segment has their own idiosyncratic way of trading. Neil Young traders are EXTREMELY laid back...like a trade with a Rustie(a Neil trader, yeah they got their own nickname.) usually takes a while. It's like you are in Jamaica..."yeah mon, your boot soon come." Zep traders have to know exact lineages, and are really anal about the type of disc that you use.
Anyhow, back to my point, these traders come off with 6 or seven pages of stuff...from just one artist. Sometimes I just gotta say...HOLY SHIT! I have about 3 pages of Stones stuff and maybe a full page of Dylan stuff...don't ask me for exact numbers beacuse I haven't a clue. If you told me I have 100 Stones shows I'd believe you...if you told me I have 400 I'd believe you. Once I got past 20, I quit counting. I saw a Springsteen list once that had to have had 1000 entries...it was like 12 pages long, small font, single spaced. I had no idea that that much Bruce stuff even existed. And I've seen similar lists for other artists as well...the biggest list came from a Beatle guy, 22 pages.
The thing is, even though I've seen some impressive Stones lists....they don't come anywhere near the sheer volume of entries that I've seen on lists for other artists. That's why I'm a little surprised of the Stones high ranking.
It's gotta be all in the way "bootleg" is defined. |
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| fmk438j |
I think people are talking about two different things in this thread. One is number of boots released via a label of some sort, and the other is just recordings in any form.
ie. the stones might have done the most shows, but not all of them have been released by a VGP or Swinging pig etc.
is this corrcet? |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
Honestly fmk...I have no idea what we are talking about. I suspect that you may be right though. VGP & Empress Valley & Crystal Cat et al VS. Mr. Freezer and Dan the Taper.
So most Dead shows have never been released on a boot label? Or Neil Young. Or Bruce? Or Dylan?
I really don't know.
How do we tell what is what? Nobody sends artwork, so how do I tell if something on a CDR came from a silver disc boot, or from a taper's DAT deck?
The bigger question is...why should I care where it came from? |
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| Cardinal Fang |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
Hey Cardybaby...
What is the definition of "bootleg" that these sources used?
I don't know much about Dead releases. All I know is that about half of all the trade lists that people send me have at least 5 pages of Dead shows. I take it that these are not considered as bootlegs, but rather as something different? They must be considered as something else, because if they are considered as bootlegs...the Dead would clearly rank in at either #1 or #2. If a band allows the taping of shows, does that mean it's not a bootleg anymore?
It's gotta be all in the way "bootleg" is defined.
Hey Sir Marc !!
You are already on the right track and have already answered your own question.
Read all of Tod's (T&A) definitions of "bootleg" because it is correct. I will paraphrase it one more time. A "bootleg" is any unauthorized album of unreleased material recorded at concerts, studio outtakes, and radio & TV broadcasts that are available FOR SALE. (this is WHY The Dead don't make the list)
The Dead encouraged early on open taping of their shows so fans could trade with each other and no money was exchanged. (they were about 30 years ahead of their time) They did this mainly to kill their own bootleg market and for the most part it worked. Dead fan's for decades didn't have to go into underground record stores to buy a bootleg, all they had to do was hook up with another Dead fan and chances were they could just trade. Even if you were a newbie and had nothing to trade they would usually turn you on to a free tape.
I can tell that some of the people in this thread have NEVER gone into an underground store and bought an actual "bootleg". All they know is trading for CD-R's and thus their confusion.
Let me say one other thing, when the RIAA makes their usual claims of illegal "bootleg" records hurting the record industry, WHAT THEY REALLY MEAN is a "counterfeit" or a "pirate" recording.
A Stones "bootleg" would be LIVEr Than You'll Ever Be.
A Stones "counterfeit" would be me making an EXACT copy of Forty Licks with the exact same artwork etc.
A Stones "pirate" would be me taking some songs off of Tattoo You, Undercover, Dirty Work, Steel Wheels and make an album called "Best Of The 80's" (or whatever)
The RIAA lumps them into one category and calls them bootlegs even though the majority of them are counterfeits.
Also to answer another one of your questions Marc, the Stones only recently made it to #3 in the late 1990's. They were #5 or #6 before that. Even so, The Stones will NEVER make it #1 or #2 because of the sheer volume of Beatle & Zep boots. Do you know how many Beatles outtake albums there are ? Tons. You already guessed correctly too about multiple same show boots for Zep. One of the things about live Zep boots is that they have multiple sourced audience recordings. (more than one person taped the same show) So what happens is you get Dude #1, Dude #2, Dude #3's album (3 separate albums) Then somebody else re bootlegs the "best" of the three different recordings as Boot #4, etc. Zep has a few studio outtake boots too. Not as many as the Beatles though.
As far as Mr Freezer & Dan The Taper go, that's a moot point because if the tapes are any good they eventually also get released as a commercial bootleg by somebody. One thing CD-R trading has cut into is the commercial bootleg business. I know that prior to CD-R's all you had was cassette tape trading or you bought a commercial bootleg. The thing with tape trading was/is the same with video tape trading-the loss of quality due to multi-generational dubs. Back in the day it was just easier to lay out the 25 bucks and buy the boot.
I hope this helps you out ?
Now I Gotta Bail.
Later, Cardinal Fang
P.S. If Factory Girl is reading this, Happy Birthday !(belated, I know)
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