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| glencar |
Motels, I have no problem with speaking ill of fine, healthy people. But when one is on his deathbed, decorum should rule. Again, don't families teach their kids this anymore? |
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| Fabio Hot Stuff |
Hey boys, I live very close to Vatican...There are a lot of people now standing in place waitin' and hopin' and prayng...
Doxa got absolutely reason! It seems a Rock concert!!
odd and sods of modern life
I'm anti-catholic but I'm very sorry his end... |
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| Gazza |
quote:
glencar wrote:
you Europeans seem to have moved into a post-Christian era on your way to a quasi-Muslim one
Bit of a sweeping generalisation on almost a billion people spread over about 60 very diverse countries and cultures, dontcha think? |
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| glencar |
It's what I've read about in a cross-section of American media. Huge numbers of Muslims moving in & a steep decline in the number of people who attend Christian services. A bad trend is happening. |
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| Gazza |
quote:
glencar wrote:
It's what I've read about in a cross-section of American media. Huge numbers of Muslims moving in & a steep decline in the number of people who attend Christian services. A bad trend is happening.
Muslims have a more active and fundamentalist approach to their faith.
Western Christian countries have become more secular and materialistic over the last couple of generations in general.
However, Europe as a whole is far too culturally diverse a place to be generalised, really. Plus immigration is much larger in some countries than in others - and its hardly confined to Muslims, either. Having a sizeable amount of immigrants or inhabitants of another faith or culture shouldnt necessarily lead to a watering down or lack of interest in that of the people who've always lived there. |
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| Monkey Woman |
quote:
glencar wrote:
When you mention how conservative he is, you're into the political area. MW, I respect you more than I do the other nitwits who ahve posted nonsense here & I feel bad for what your Mom went through as far as trying to contribute more.
Thanks, but I think you don't understand that I'm not talking only about being politically conservative. Though I don't see why it would be "bad form" to remind us of what the Pope actually stands for...
quote:
But many focus on negative things with the man when he's done some incredible things with his papacy. "How many divisions does the Pope have?" is now a question of historical foolishness.
Sure. Last year, Ronald Reagan (RIP) was credited for bringing the downfall of USSR almost single-handedly, now it's the Pope. Whatever. It also helps that the people in Poland, Eastern Germany, Chekoslovakia and other countries have struggled themselves pacifically for their freedom! I recall, about 25 years ago, the movement of Leich Walesa and the Solidarnosc union, in wich metal workers stood against the oppression. Then the Pope talked for them and helped them, but it was because they had done it first. And in 1989-90, it was the people in Eastern Germany who simply began to line up at the check-points in the wall to go to their family in the West. Gorbachev declined to do a thing about it, so they had to let them go and tear the wall down. Good thing he didn't react like the Chinese at the same time...
quote:
The Church has done much, even for AIDS patients & others who have gone unnoticed.
Don't get me started on that issue. Yes, the Church helps people who suffer from AIDS, once they are contaminated, but that's basic decent humanity. What would be better would be helping people from getting AIDS in the first place...
quote:
I think anyone has differences with their faith but you Europeans seem to have moved into a post-Christian era on your way to a quasi-Muslim one. Behold your future. It's not one I'd ever embrace.
I hope you're joking about that "post-Christian" and "quasi-Muslim" era for Europe?! Equating Christianity with "good" is an insult to all decent not Christian folks. I said my family (especially my mother) is Catholic, but for myself I don't feel I belong in any religion. I also have another close relative whose spouse is a practicing Muslim. I don't feel threatened by his being a Muslim, somehow!  He's a very sweet guy, very smart and funny. Which shows you can have every kind of belief (religious or not) as long as you are a decent, honest, peaceful human being. My family and friends have thankfully always been tolerant about religion, so we can get together and acknowledge others feel differently, respect their feelings. Some things are thought more important than how you call God, or even if you believe in Him or not. Saying you're Christian but acting bigoted is a worst sin in my book.
As for Europe, I'm more concerned about the nationalist and political divisions than lack of religion...  |
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| glencar |
I don't think it's the immigrants who have caused a loss in faith. I think it's probably coincidental. And yes, I've read that it's happened more in some countries than others. France & Netherlands seem to have been infected most by it. |
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| Monkey Woman |
Wow, infected, now!  I've heard something new today!
Okay, rant-time over for me now, I'm off to a birthday party with my loving ones. At least one good thing in the day.
Peace and love and rock'n'roll to all! |
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| glencar |
In the US, AIDS keeps getting spread by guys who have HIV & can easily afford condoms but their crystal meth use causes them to act irresponsibly. I'm sure the Pope will earn some of the blame for that. I've known some Muslims & yes, they've been pleasant but they haven't come over here in huge numbers yet. 1.5 out of 14 million in Netherlands is a huge number. France has what, 5 or 6 million? That's overwhelming. Combined with a loss among Chritianity, that doesn't bode well for the future.
President Reagan did end Communism. He had help from the Pope. I forget who wrote the book but there was a noted history of how the two agreed to work together to end Communism. And all those people did what they could but it was outside forces which brought down Communism. There are people in Cuba & China who want to bring democracy there but w/o outside help, it's probably impossible to do so.
Earlier you complained about the Pope not hesitating to visit right wing dictatorships w/o flinching. But the fact is that until 1990, right wing dictatorships fell on a regular basis. Nobody feared the worldwide march of rightwing dictatorships. That was the opposite from what the view of Commie dictatorships was. And BTW the Pope often did condemn human rights abuses when he visited those countries. Your anger at him colors your memory. |
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| glencar |
I hope you don't speak ill of the Pope at that lil kids party! LOL |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
Religious Persuasion
Andy White
‘protestant or catholic’
cried a voice from the crowd
‘not you again st peter’
I was thinking aloud
should have packed my bags
headed off for the coast
had my time already come
to meet the heavenly host?
they switched on their halos
adjusted their harps
checked that the blades
on the pearly gates were sharp
I asked them what they meant
about religious bent
they said ‘that’s the test’
I said ‘that’s the test-ah-meant’
they were giving holy orders
I think you’ll find
I was up against persuasion
of the religious kind
it was hailing marys
at the drop of a tract
said the 7 deadly sins
were staying round at my flat
I pondered on the churches
of england and rome
hadn’t paid the rent
for my spiritual home
needed guidance from the leaders
whose names I knew
archbishop…
and john player number two
I quaked in my sackcloth
threw away my joss-stick
burned my koran and said I was agnostic
‘I mean an atheist’ I cried
as they moved in for the kill
the walls tumbled down as they
handed me the bill
they weren’t impressed
with my distinctions
I think you’ll find
that I was up against persuasion
of the religious kind
a lamb to the slaughter
a human sacrifice
I told their spiritual leader
his sceptre looked nice
a hymn book skimmed my ear
but I was only grazed
I dived for cover
as the sawn-off bibles blazed
in the gore I gasped
‘was it something I said?’
then a solid granite altar
hit me on the head
a collection plate plunged into my groin
they marched off discussing
the battle of the boyne
as I expired I was thinking
they’d been rather unkind
but I was up against persuasion
of the religious kind
bleeding and naked
I was somewhat at a loss
the good samaritan was drinking
at the sign of the cross
recalling their question I felt totally alone
as I peered out from underneath
the tablets of stone
in the gutter lay the crushed
remains of a bible
it proclaimed their grievances
were purely tribal
they made me see the light
for that I offer my thanks
I was collared by the dogs
now I’ve joined their ranks
onward christian soldiers
I hope you don’t mind
being afflicted by religion
of the persuasive kind
now if you’re visiting some irish town
the politicians’ heads stuck in the ground
and the only bell ringing has a
graveyard sound
someone’s got to stand up or
nothing’s gonna change
till religion
is rearranged
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| Angiegirl |
quote:
Doxa wrote:
Interesting job that 'being Pope'. You can not retire no matter how bad condition you are in.
Actually, that's not true. A pope can retire if he wants. He just chose not to. |
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| KeepRigid |
Best wishes to the Pope, but has anyone considered that this new report might just be an elaborate April Fool's prank by the Vatican? Are they known for stunts like that? |
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| Angiegirl |
Yeah, they're such a bunch of funny people, you're right. |
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| Riffhard |
The pope chose not to retire not out of any rediculous claims of selfishness as I have read here. He chose not to because his religious convictions are such that he feels that even in his suffering that he is doing God's will. That by showing the human suffering that he is teaching millions about the "Grace of death." He has stated this many times. For those of you who are not religious. Have the common decency to respect the fact that hundreds of millions of people the world over have been helped by this pope.
I am not Catholic,but have an unending admiration for this man of God. He spoke out about the attrocities of the former Soviet Union and the inhumane treament of political prisoners of China and North Korea amoung many others. He escaped the Nazis and spoke out very harshly against Nazism and acknowledged the Catholic Church's faults about such issues. He also apologized for the Crusades on his own accord. He is a good man and to deny that is foolishness of the highest order whether you follow his faith or not. This is not the time to ridicule. While the Catholic Church has made many mistakes he never hid from them,and tried to fix what he could.
He has now died. RIP Pope John Paul II
Riffhard |
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| Gazza |
Italian media are reporting that he has died.
Hope he rests in peace. It was painful to watch the man in recent weeks.
As a non-Catholic, condolences to all of you who are.
[Edited by Gazza] |
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| Angiegirl |
True, but there's also the other side of his reign (ie preaching against condoms imo is an example) I can't shut my eyes to. I was brought up Catholic, but as soon as I could think for myself, I chose not to follow this thru, as I'm just not religious, I don't believe in any God or religion.
Still, the Catholic world is familiar to me as a result of my youth and I hope this man won't suffer too long, at least he held on to his dignity, i respect that.
I still think a pope is a strange concept though.
[Edited by Angiegirl] |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
That by showing the human suffering that he is teaching millions about the "Grace of death."
Agree with you that this Pope seemed like a good guy, as Popes go. I absolutely can NOT put your feelings in this thread together with your feelings in the Terri Schiavo thread, though...shouldn't the Pope have been hooked up to a bunch of machines and kept alive indefinitely? (And actually, didn't he specifically ask for that to happen?)Weren't the "evil" people who wanted to "starve" Terri Schiavo actually simply wanting her to be allowed the "Grace of death"?
May they BOTH rest in peace.
[Edited by FPM C10] |
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| Gazza |
This is now becoming surreal. He's either dead according to some sources or still alive (according to the Vatican) |
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| Angiegirl |
He's supposed to show low signs on his EEG, so basically brain dead. If he's still 'alive' it'll be a matter of hours max. We'll find out later tonight no doubt. Just watched Italian RaiUno, they also report 'critical condition' (yes, my Italian is very good  )
[Edited by Angiegirl] |
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| Scot Rocks |
As a Catholic its a sad day,  I dont think the church has or is perfect but John Paul II has done many good things in his lifetime and has worked tirelessly for many good causes. He is a person who many people respected no matter what their faith.
God Bless you John Paul
Mark |
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| Factory Girl |
cnn has him as "alive".
How long has he held the Pope position?
[Edited by Factory Girl] |
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| J.J.Flash |
quote:
Gazza wrote:
Italian media are reporting that he has died.
Hope he rests in peace. It was painful to watch the man in recent weeks.
As a non-Catholic, condolences to all of you who are.
[Edited by Gazza]
"recent weeks"?!?! He's been suffering for a long time. Also, I think JP II had never been the same after being shot.
Rest in Peace!
[Edited by J.J.Flash] |
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| Gazza |
quote:
Factory Girl wrote:
cnn has him as "alive".
How long has he held the Pope position?
[Edited by Factory Girl]
since October 1978
Or to put it in "Stones time" - around the time of Keith's Toronto trial!
[Edited by Gazza] |
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| Angiegirl |
That explains a lot. |
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| keith_tif |
How many Africa's people have died because this pope said not to use condom?
i don't care of him and all others religious people all over the world! |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
keith_tif wrote:
How many Africa's people have died because this pope said not to use condom?
i don't care of him and all others religious people all over the world!
That is quite possibly the most ignorant post I have ever read on this site! The reason people in Africa,or anywhere for that matter,died had nothing to do with the teachings of the pope! They died because they had sex with someone who had AIDS/HIV! You want the pope to take a "well their gonna fuck anyway!" attitude so let's endorse condom use?! My god man! What the hell is so wrong with the pope teaching abstinace? It's in his job description! Today is not the day to slam the pope! I would bet my last dollar that he did much more good for the world than anyone on this board ever did. Give it rest you damned heathens!
Riffhard |
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| HellsRollingThunder |
Every leader has his light and dark side. Some of the things the
Pope did may not set right with everyone, but it is up to the person
to c ontrol their own lives. I have discovered the idea of not
doing anything irrational, impossible or unreasonable. I am not
talking about being a nonconformist just not doing anything that
does not do something that is stupid and harmful. He has to live
with whatever he is doing and has done in his life. It will be
interesting who is the next Pope. |
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| Poplar |
I think his strength in the face of great suffering is truly inspiring. In a culture obsessed with youth, he is something of a miracle.
This thread, more than any other i can remember, has shown that some here posess exquisite taste and class ... while others clearly do not.
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| Gazza |
quote:
keith_tif wrote:
i don't care of him and all others religious people all over the world!
If you feel the need to insult billions of people of different faiths around the world just because they DO happen to hold some kind of religious conviction, then take it elsewhere.
And learn some fucking manners while you're at it. |
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