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| Poplar |
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/nm/20050401/ts_nm/pope_dc&sid=84439559
looks like this might be it. He's shown amazing endurance and strength. A true lesson that age means nothing. |
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| egon |
very sorry, but i don't really care wether he lives or dies. |
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| magicwoman |
He's old enough!!! |
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| HellsRollingThunder |
I am not Catholic myself, but the work and the leadership he has
displayed for his own church and religion are extraordinary.
He represents the Roman Catholic church as he is supposed to,
and he has done a fine job in the eyes of many Catholics.
He came to my town, and even though I am not Catholic his
aura and presence are amazing. |
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| gypsy |
quote:
HellsRollingThunder wrote:
I am not Catholic myself, but the work and the leadership he has
displayed for his own church and religion are extraordinary.
He represents the Roman Catholic church as he is supposed to,
and he has done a fine job in the eyes of many Catholics.
He came to my town, and even though I am not Catholic his
aura and presence are amazing.
Indeed. |
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| Jumacfly |
RIP with the millions dead people from aids JP2....
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| egon |
exactly!
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| Doxa |
Interesting job that 'being Pope'. You can not retire no matter how bad condition you are in. Almost like being The Rolling Stones...
- Doxa
[Edited by Doxa] |
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| glencar |
I have enormous respect for this man. May he go with God & go peacefully. |
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| Factory Girl |
I'm not Catholic and I disagree with some of his views.
However, I have great respect and admiration for the Pope.
I hope that his condition stabilizes and he improves and gets stronger. |
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| glencar |
Classy as always, FG!
[Edited by glencar] |
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| Factory Girl |
Thank you, glenny.  |
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| glencar |
You're welcome! I wonder if he'd be in better shape if he hadn't been shot in '81? He has Parkinson's which can't be too helpful. |
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| Factory Girl |
I'm sure that is a factor. But, it seems his ailments have snowballed.
I hope he pulls through.
Glencar, check PM! |
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| glencar |
Wilco! |
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| Monkey Woman |
quote:
Poplar wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/nm/20050401/ts_nm/pope_dc&sid=84439559
looks like this might be it. He's shown amazing endurance and strength. A true lesson that age means nothing.
A more accurate lesson would be that when you're really old and ill, you are likely to make poor decisions, such as to cling to your chairman seat at all costs. When you think about it, his conduct also shows quite a lot of pig-headedness and false humility of late, thinking he could still talk and decide and be a leader, when he would be better following his doctor's advice of resting. For what good? During months, the Vatican has done little apart attending to the "pope situation". The other issues, concerning a billion of Catholics over the world, have been shelved for an undelimited period.
This will sound harsh (as indeed it's intended) but I was raised a Catholic and I think I'm entitled to my say about this.
We can admire a lot of things about J.P. II, for exemple his courage and will to unite all catholics, and advocacy for human rights, but he also made along the years a lot of dubious (to put it mildly) decisions. Like shaking hands with dictator Pinochet in the Eighties, and more generally supporting with his official visits a lot of brutal and corrupt regimes, like in Ivory Coast and South America. How does it square with the human rights? Or maybe he was more concerned with the communist dictatures than the right wing ones...
This pope and his cronies also imposed silence to most of the dissenting voices in the Catholic church, leading to a situation where the "conservatives" in the Church control nearly all the channels of expression and define what is the official Church policy. And the differences of opinion within the Church are important, on matters as varied as personal moral (euthanasia, sex before marriage, contraception, safe sex as a means to avoid STDs...) but also wether the Church can go on as a medieval institution, with only celibate (and preferably virgin) men as priests, a pyramidal hierarchy, little or no internal democracy, pompous (and costly) ceremonies, old-fashioned supersitions (like exorcism or the Immaculate Conception) and, generally, more importance put on following Church dogma than following Jesus' exemple.
My mother is also a long-time volunteer for charity work in her parish and diocese, along with priests and nuns and other lay volunteers. Over the years she's helped children with after-school work, teached immigrant women to read and write, she's helped organising a charity giving food and shelter to the homeless, and she works right now in a talk group for mentally ill people and their families. Plus she's a delegate of her local community at the diocese level. The thing she says is the most difficult to overcome is the backward mentality within the Church. Many devout Catholics only want to help the "deserving" poor or ill people, excepting for instance the non-Christians, the gay, the people who are divorced or living together without being married. I know the majority of Catholics are not like that, but sadly those who are in charge in the Church are still apt think along those prejudices, even if they prefer to gloss it over when talking to people outside the Church.
I could go on much longer, but in this hour, let just say that this man has earned his rest by a long life of work and faith, but now it's hight time to let a new generation preside over the Church's destinies, for good or for bad.
(Another exemple: my mother wanted to join a religious community, after she divorced my father. They are separated for good: my father has remarried and my mother don't intend to. She lives only for charity work, studying Gospel and other religious texts, talking to other Christians. But she couldn't joined a community because of her divorce. She was told if she was single or a widow, it would be possible, but not if the man she used to be married to is still alive. The logic of this reasoning, if there is one, fails me.) |
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| Monkey Woman |
quote:
Doxa wrote:
Interesting job that 'being Pope'. You can not retire no matter how bad condition you are in. Almost like being The Rolling Stones...
- Doxa
Thanks for the much needed glint of humour, Doxa! Keef Richards for Pope, now!  |
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| glencar |
Someday we'll have a thread about an important person that doesn't dissolve into political rants from either side. Today is apparently not that day. |
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| gimmekeef |
No its not Glencar....Religion is for suckers...When the Pope leaves this world perhaps he can take all his abusing and sick priest bretheren with him! |
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| glencar |
LOL Charming! |
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| Gazza |
At the end of the day, he obviously means a lot to many people here and elsewhere on a personal or spiritual level.
There's no harm debating something constructively without turning it into some cyber gloat-fest over the man's impending demise as it's obviously going to offend many people who feel connected to him. |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
quote:
gimmekeef wrote:
....Religion is for suckers...
OUCH! |
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| glencar |
As I said on the Johnny Cockrane thread either here or at Shidobeeeeee, if you have nothing good to say about a dead/dying person, then speak not. When a new Pope comes along shortly, your rants can kick in again. And won't THAT be fun? |
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| Monkey Woman |
Sorry if you construed my stance as political, glencar. I thought I was talking about religion. And the point here was that many Catholics don't recognize themselves in the pope's religion anymore, though they may feel for the old, suffering, obstinate human being he is. Even though the man who still holds as of now the title of pope is far from showing the christian humility his followers credit him for. Let's be charitable and say he's been deluded by his illness in believing he could go on as if nothing was the matter with him.
I'm not into saying nothing bad about someone simply because they are either dead or dying. That would be hypocritical. When someone is important, is held important by billions of people over the world, when they intend to be a leader, then they have a responsability to the men and women they represent. If only the responsability to not let themselves be turned into an object of superstition. |
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| Maxlugar |
[quote]Jumacfly wrote:
RIP with the millions dead people from aids JP2....
LOL your ability to be a douche at inappropriate times has exceded even your high standards!
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| Factory Girl |
One, generally, should not speak ill of the dead/dying. |
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| glencar |
When you mention how conservative he is, you're into the political area. MW, I respect you more than I do the other nitwits who ahve posted nonsense here & I feel bad for what your Mom went through as far as trying to contribute more. But many focus on negative things with the man when he's done some incredible things with his papacy. "How many divisions does the Pope have?" is now a question of historical foolishness. The Church has done much, even for AIDS patients & others who have gone unnoticed. I think anyone has differences with their faith but you Europeans seem to have moved into a post-Christian era on your way to a quasi-Muslim one. Behold your future. It's not one I'd ever embrace. |
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| Monkey Woman |
quote:
Factory Girl wrote:
One, generally, should not speak ill of the dead/dying.
I don't agree. This is how you create a golden legend around a public figure, who is both much loved and much criticized, by shutting up the dissenters at the time the issue is in the news. After that, the public goes on to something new and speak of something else.
And this is not as if we were the man's neighbours and were berating him in front of his family! In fact, I'm from a Catholic family myself, but I've also learned to value honesty above well-intended euphemisms and clichés. |
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| glencar |
Nonsense. You should leave a decent interval before speaking ill of teh dead. Say nothing if you have nothing good to say. One would think you would have learned that at a young age. |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
quote:
Factory Girl wrote:
One, generally, should not speak ill of the dead/dying.
Well I suppose one shouldn't speak ill of anyone really. But that doesn't happen. Maybe in a perfect world...oh well, we have Walgreens. |
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