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Topic: Obama's Speech-a fraud (NS) Return to archive Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
23rd March 2008 02:06 PM
Riffhard
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:
So you're saying that anyone who refuses to denounce Obama is implicitly supporting him, and is, furthermore, SHILLING for him!?

WOW.

Support the war or you sympathize with the terrorists.



[Edited by Nasty Habits]




Not at all. That is not what I said. I said that I am talking to people that love to hold conservatives to one standard while refusing to accept any standards from a fellow liberal Democrat.

I am talking to anyone that won't just be honest about the situation here. The fact that there are people here that won't come right out and say, "Gee Obama really is a double talking lying pandering politician who had me fooled...." That proves to me that it is they, rather than I, that are the true partisans. I would drop Obama like a hot rock if he were my candidate. I would not hesitate for a minute to dump him. I must have higher standards. And, yes, I am aware that some may feel that that is a holier-than-thou stance. So be it. I would dump him in minute. I, for example, have no problem coming out and stating right up front why I think John McCain is not the best choice for the Republicans. Democrats, on the other hand, seemingly will not ever take a stand against other Democrats.


So while Jizz,monkey_man,pdog,yourself, and others may not be openly supportive of Obama, you guys still have not come out and stated firmly that he is a flawed candidate. Why not? Every poster that you mentioned would be slamming a Republican for the same thing had the shoe been on the other foot. I would have been right there as well voicing my outrage. Yet the left remains silent. Partisanship. Plain and simple.


Riffy
23rd March 2008 02:16 PM
sirmoonie
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
This has zero to do with partisanship from my perspective. I just weigh the facts. He spent twenty years attending a church that preaches institutionalized racism.


You really are a clown at times.

23rd March 2008 02:16 PM
Nasty Habits I have talked very openly about my mixed emotions and red flags about Obama from the start of my participation in this discussion. In virtually every post. I have granted in myriad posts that this is cause for concern.

Furthermore, I have never once on Rocks Off or in any public forum I can recall (or, gee, in my heart, that I can tell) denounced, say, George Allen or any other right winger who's made racist [excuse me - perceived and often media manufactured] gaffes in the past. My denouncing if I denounce at all of politicians tends to stem from my perception of their records and actions. And correct me if I am misremembering this, but isn't Lott the minority whip leader now? Seems like he was allowed to recover from smackdown that, as I recall, was pretty much w/i his own party. So I admit I don't really see the universal double standard you've been going on about since day one.

In fact, let me actually play the ol' link/quote game:

Barack Obama, the freshman Senator from Illinois, seemed not to carry a grudge as he left the Senate floor the day after Lott's victory. "[Lott] obviously paid a price and comes back a little bit wiser, as all of us hopefully do after a mistake," Obama said.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1561139,00.html




[Edited by Nasty Habits]
23rd March 2008 02:28 PM
Riffhard
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:

You really are a clown at times.





And you're an asshole almost always. Please give me an example of Romney's racism. You can't. You can try and hold him to account for his religion that at one time held racist beleifs that it has since abandoned. Romney's only sin was being born into a religion and not quiting it. Obama chose to become a member of a church that not only has always held racist beliefs, but still screams them from the pulpit on any given Sunday! You can hold every German alive accountable for Hitler too. You always do, but that does not address the issue at hand. So spare me your bullshit talk.


Riffy
23rd March 2008 02:38 PM
Riffhard
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:

And correct me if I am misremembering this, but isn't Lott the minority whip leader now? Seems like he was allowed to recover from smackdown that, as I recall, was pretty much w/i his own party. So I admit I don't really see the universal double standard you've been going on about since day one.

In fact, let me actually play a little link/quote game:

Barack Obama, the freshman Senator from Illinois, seemed not to carry a grudge as he left the Senate floor the day after Lott's victory. "[Lott] obviously paid a price and comes back a little bit wiser, as all of us hopefully do after a mistake," Obama said.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1561139,00.html


[Edited by Nasty Habits]




This makes my point precisely. Yes Lott was held to account. Held to account by his own party at that. It is the Dems that don't seem to want to hold Obama accountable at all though. The media sure as hell won't! So while Obama may have forgiven Trent Lott his sins he still refuses to denounce a man that spews hate regularly. He allowed this man to baptize his own children. Is this an exammple of Obama transending race? He sends his children to a church that preaches hate as a matter of their core belief system!Obama did, in fact, throw his grandmother under the bus while at the same time refusing to denounce a man that spewed hate the likes of which grandma never uttered.

Yes. I say denounce his ass! Denounce it loud and long! He's a lying hypocrite!


Riffy
23rd March 2008 02:48 PM
Nasty Habits And the article also goes to show that Obama is not the constant one-note race card playing phony that you're painting him as. Has he played the card irresponsibly and expediently? I think he has. Does he do it at every opportunity in order to make himself look holier than thou? I infer from that quote that he does not. You'd think a typical liberal like Obama would say something about Lott that was not so . . . understanding.

If I grant you Imus (which I did) you have got to grant me that one.

You did not however, address the fact that you hold a particular "group" of people in utter contempt, consistently and fervently, based on stereotypes that do not take into account the actions of members of that group that you see here every day. That this reductive perspective exists along political lines rather than racial lines does not, I think, make it any less hateful or impactive on your perceptions. And it's not something you were born into, it's something you chose to be a member of for 10+ years. 10 YEARS!

Dude, that isn't racism, but it sure as hell is a virulent kind of partisanship.

OWN IT.



[Edited by Nasty Habits]
23rd March 2008 02:53 PM
pdog I have siad, many times Obama is flawed... I even go as far as to almost repeat your quote that you want liberals to repeat...


"Gee Obama really is a double talking lying pandering politician who had me fooled...."

He never had me fooled, but the rest is fine. and even if he did fool me. Fool me once, fool on you yo, fool me twice and I can promise you 7 years of acceptable retardation.
23rd March 2008 02:57 PM
Nasty Habits Thank god you're here. I'm about ready to tag out.


Wait.

I mean -- thank OBAMA that you're here.



[Edited by Nasty Habits]
23rd March 2008 02:59 PM
pdog
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:
Thank god you're here. I'm about ready to tag out.


Wait.

I mean -- thank OBAMA that you're here.



[Edited by Nasty Habits]




I'm heading out. I need to give rides to mexicans who love Jesus so much, they've illegally entered American just to piss off the blacks, who don't love Jesus as much? You never meet many blacks named Jesus.
23rd March 2008 03:00 PM
Nasty Habits
quote:
pdog wrote:



I'm heading out. I need to give rides to mexicans who love Jesus so much, they've illegally entered American just to piss off the blacks, who don't love Jesus as much? You never meet many blacks named Jesus.



Betcha when he gets elected in November and unites the country that there's gonna be a bunch named Barack!


23rd March 2008 03:02 PM
BONOISLOVE I am not a twat!!
23rd March 2008 03:03 PM
Nasty Habits
quote:
BONOISLOVE wrote:
I am not a twat!!





23rd March 2008 03:23 PM
pdog
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:


Betcha when he gets elected in November and unites the country that there's gonna be a bunch named Barack!







You can tell I'm white, punk rocker and likes a bit of the spanish flavor, that's why my kid is named Ramone!
23rd March 2008 03:24 PM
Fiji Joe [quote]Nasty Habits wrote:

"So now you're reposting your posts from the old Obama's Church thread?"

It would be lame if I were not by name accused of making this a "my grammy said this" debate...and it would be lame if anyone answered my question the first time I raised it


"I get that this is a real issue for you and has stirred up a lot of shit - I respect the fact that you're out there finding links and bringing them back alive, but you guys TOTALLY were all over throwing grandma under the bus for pages and pages, you continue to repeat the same arguments over and over again and continue to act like legions of Obama supporters are holding their hands over their ears going LA LA LA in this thread"

Are they not (LA LA LA)?...Look, I thought it was pretty clear that my treatment of the throwing granny under the bus issue was a more on the level of a lark...it was a dumb thing to do on a family level...and a even dumber thing to do say that she's just a "typical white person"...I made light of those dumb remarks...it was never central to any of the arguments I was making...and it's not now...The significance of the remark, IMO, was one of moral equation proffered by Obama...as to say, "my grammy was racist...so it's OK for you to be one too...It's OK"...was that not what he was doing?

"The question of the "end game" to my mind is a legit one, although one I didn't bring up because, right, you can do what you want."

Yeah...I pretty much answered that...but again, people are concerned with "end games" now?...If it's important to you...Important enough for you to bring it up here, but not really bring it up, just make sure you ask it of everyone...and anyone...all the time ...startiiiiinnnnnngggggg...now!

"But if the point is continuing the debate, why continue to use the same "greatest most important life fullfilling speech of all time" gibes? You are at least creative enough to come up with some new shit worth reading in your posts."

Be real....other than yourself, no one has honestly discussed this issue with me...no...what they did, which causes me to raise these posts again, is change the subject and accuse me and others of raising the grammy thing as some point of emphasis...it's not to me...it's what I said it was above and as Shelby Steele wrote, part of the "bargain"...Bothersome in its intent...but not something that an election decision would be based upon


"I suppose the question is: Where have you seen this negatively impact or red flag his voting record?"

No nasty...that's the question that is asked after mine is answered...that's what that is...logic dictates that sequence...sorta...it's wholly unrelated to the issue I have raised....but for your sake, I'll answer it anyway...even though you already know what Obama's scant voting record shows and does not show and the fact that his record is so scant is precisely why someone ought to be digging into what he's all about...obviously, the issues of separatism and racism don't present themselves as referendums in Congress anymore...so no, we can't point to that in his "record"...I think David Duke had that same benefit...but you knew that...That's why you asked that self-serving question...Nonetheless, central to my argument is, and I know you know this because I've mentioned it before, the hypocrisy of his rhetoric and his actual choices in life...and the issue of hypocrisy becomes all the more important with a candidate who has a remarkably scant voting record and run on a platform of virtually nothing but platitudes

There are certainly indications of the Black Liberation Theology economic philosophy (curious as to why it even has an economic philosophy but it does) in Obama's voting record and his rhetoric...but only if you acknowledge that he did indeed practice that religion for 20 years...if you don't acknowledge it, and wish to see the man you know basically nothing about in a vacuum, then I guess you're OK there...but that would be the end of anything you and I have to say on the issue...seriously, you and I are done if you're taking the position that a man's religion of hate, or a man's use/choice of a religion of hate (please notice that I did not just say "religion), cannot effect what he is about and how he will act in office...You can take that position...I'm not...again, if that's your position, I think you and I don't have anything else to talk about...or, if you think I'm wrong in my characterization of Obama's "religion", then that would end our conversation as well...and don't take that statement to mean I'm saying you're wrong on this issue...I just think that if we're in disagreement on those issues, then there is nowhere else to go...It's like arguing with someone who believes abortion is murder...If their thought is that it is murder, there is nothing you can present to them to convince them of a pro-choice viewpoint...Does that make sense?

"Is there any evidence that in his political life Obama has shown tendencies that would give a potential voter pause as to his sympathies for Black Liberation Theology?"

Again, I find this question just a little self-serving in that Obama doesn't have much a political life...Nowhere close to the religious life he has had...but I'll address the issue of "pause"...Of course much of this "pause" depends on the voter, voters not having the same wants and needs or political leanings (no doubt you asked that question from your own unique perspective), but Yes...There is pause for concern...I have answered that in "that other thread" and above (another good reason for me to keep re-posting my posts---no one seems to actually want to know)...But yeah...if we're talking "political life", sure there is "evidence"...The evidence would be the church itself...and his use of that church and its religion to advance politically...IMO one of the reasons Obama chose that church was for political gain...it may very well be the only reason he cozied up to that hate factory and sought the leadership and guidance of the hate preacher...congregation = constituents...I absolutely believe that a large part of his selection of that church of hate was for his political advancement...to get their backing and support in the Chicago area...the only other reasons he would choose that church would be 1) he believes in its message (of hate) or 2) he was just ignorant to what it was all about, even after 20 years of worshiping there (which even he as admitted, NOW, that this wasn't the case)...none of those scenarios are all that attractive and ALL of them are in complete contradiction to man who has run on the idea that he is the man who is above it all and the agent of change...and all of those scenarios would cause concern from anyone who is objective...those scenarios sure as hell don't justify the blind faith so many have shown in him...and all of those scenarios make THE GREAT SPEECH just a load of horseshit...Why?...Because he has not lived what he has preached...and his swift-boating of Hillary with the race card is further evidence of that...That would have been a great speech coming from Martin Luther King...a man who lived it as he spoke it...But coming from a man whose religion is one of racism and division (and I'm not even touching the marxism aspect of it - yet), it's just a load of crap from another, typical politician...a man who contradicts himself so profoundly in such a short political life, having nothing else of substance to critique, causes me, and clearly others here pause for concern...

And should I have pause for concern with a man who has mentioned he is willing to sit down and talk with leaders of nations sponsoring Islamic terrorism?...I should be at least concerned with what he might talk about...I do have to wonder now, how much of that hate for white America he's been listening to for 20 years sunk in...Seeing as how that view is shared by the same people he is going to be talking with...And don't I need to be concerned that when he says he rejects those views, that he might be bullshitting me?...And particularly in light of the reports that his own brother shares some of these views...Might I be just a little concerned, given his past record of rejecting but only after be called out on it after the fact, that he might not really reject it all...Am I really being unreasonable here?

But hey, if man whose religion OF CHOICE is steeped in racism, division and marxism, and his use of that religion for either political purposes or spiritual guidance doesn't cause you pause for concern, that's your choice...But you cannot honestly tell me that it shouldn't cause pause for concern with other voters who may think differently than you...You cannot honestly tell me that..Well you could...or you can just call me a racist as others here have...and continue to question my "end game"...That's a good way to stifle debate


"Feel free to show me these smoking guns and hand my ass to me, this is a wide open opportunity."

Psst...I just did
23rd March 2008 03:41 PM
lotsajizz
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
As a conservative....Riffy




(sic)


You're not a conservative. You're a statist. You support big government, you just want it to be right wing big government. Barry Goldwater would be ashamed....
23rd March 2008 03:43 PM
pdog "typical " in the context of Obamas speech, seems to have meant representive of the time... And I don't recall him saying his Granny was racist, I think it was clear he was talking about typical prejudice. and when are you going to stop talking about religion? It's the same religion that once endorsed slavery, so we're surprised it has produced a hateful black preacher. I hope everyone understands, from my POV, this religion thing, is retarded. And I've already in the prior thread given my talk about it, so if you missed it, tough shit or go re-read it. i'm 99% sure I gave an example of my families prejudice before I read the debate on Barracks speech about granny. In fact, I know I did.
23rd March 2008 03:49 PM
sirmoonie Please try to get some consistency.
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
And you're an asshole almost always. Please give me an example of Romney's racism. You can't.

The example is the same as Obama's - church affiliation. Isn't that what you've been posting about?





quote:

You can try and hold him to account for his religion that at one time held racist beleifs that it has since abandoned.

Yes. I thought holding them into account for their religion, despite their disclaimers and disavowals, was the entire purpose of these Obama threads. And if you think the Mormon cult has abandoned its racist beliefs, you are once again willffuly ignorant. In any case, Willard was 31 years old when the magic event you are trying to refer to took place. Chase that down.






quote:
Romney's only sin was being born into a religion and not quiting it. Obama chose to become a member of a church that not only has always held racist beliefs, but still screams them from the pulpit on any given Sunday! You can hold every German alive accountable for Hitler too. You always do, but that does not address the issue at hand. So spare me your bullshit talk.


I see no principled difference between not quitting and joining. But, I'm sure you do because you need to. And again, if you think the Book or Mormon got magically rewritten when the Mormon Elders holed up and had their negroes convo with god, you are willfully ignorant.



There actually are minor differences (but insignificant, in my correct opinion) between Obam and his church problem and Willard Romney and the church problems he SHOULD have faced in the media. You weren't even able to point them out. You even crossed up your own Obam points in places. An all around weak and undistinguished effort on your part.
23rd March 2008 03:56 PM
Fiji Joe I wonder when these two retards will figure out that Romney's out of the race?

This man IS running for president...and while I have yet to find any racism and hate in his religion, I have figured out that the Zionists have his ear...literally...and that's not good for anyone

23rd March 2008 04:16 PM
Fiji Joe And yes...I do have concerns with McCain and the zionist agents of hate he panders...his cozying up with merchants of hate is troublesome...No doubt this explains the retard McCain being the first to come to Obama's defense when it was learned that he too panders to hate merchants

---

McCain, Hagee, `The Great Whore', the Israel Lobby

by shergald, Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:31:27 AM EST

The Huffington Post this morning published a story (John Hagee's McCain Endorsement Sparks Uproar) about McCain's endorsement by James Hagee, the founder of Christians United for Israel (CUI) and leader of the Christian Zionists, relating more fully the extent of Hagee's bigotry. Not only are Muslims in the sights of CUI's guns, but Catholics (The Great Whore), Blacks, gays, women, and others have also been targeted.

Hagee is the purveyor of a Christian eschatology in which end days are coming when Jews will be subjected to conversion, but his antiMuslim rhetoric, especially his support for attacking Iran, has attracted extreme right wing Israeli supporters like Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the extremist Likud party in Israel, and Joe Lieberman to his fold. Both Netanyahu and Lieberman have spoken at CUI conventions, and Hagee in turn has spoken before AIPAC, the face of the Israel Lobby in the US, which is also an advocate of Likud (no Palestinian state) politics.

The story was republished from ABC News:

Calling Pastor John Hagee a "bigot," the conservative Catholic League is calling for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., to denounce/renounce/reject his endorsement Wednesday.

With a Youtube link to prove his point, Catholic League president Bill Donohue said Hagee "has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church. For example, he likes calling it 'The Great Whore,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system.' ..."Senator Obama has repudiated the endorsement of Louis Farrakhan, another bigot. McCain should follow suit and retract his embrace of Hagee." ...

McCain spox Jill Hazelbaker says, "Hagee endorsed John McCain. While we welcome his support, it shouldn't be seen as a wholesale endorsement of all of Mr. Hagee's views."

In this YouTube video Hagee compares Catholicism to a cult:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uViQ0hVV57Q

Although the progressive group Catholics United has also written a letter to McCain asking him to "publicly distance himself" from Hagee's views, in spite of the ABC origin of the story, there has been a notable lack of mainstream media coverage.

Very much like Farrakhan, Hagee has regularly made remarks about current events and other religions that many would find alarming. But unlike Farrakhan, he has never truly faced the scrutiny of the mainstream press, and major politicians like Joe Lieberman and John McCain have freely associated with him.

In 2006, Hagee laid out his views on eschatology in a book called Jerusalem Countdown, in which he claimed that sources had told him a year earlier about world events to come -- and amazingly enough, all those predictions had come true over the past year. Next on the agenda, according to his March 2006 interview in Human Events: Israel would go to war with Iran before May 2006. And from there, Hagee eagerly anticipated an all-out world war against Iran and Russia, followed by the Second Coming.

In an UPDATE to the story, it was noted that during a press conference, McCain refused to reject Hagee's support: He explained,

"Well I think it's important to note that pastor John Hagee who has supported and endorsed my candidacy supports what I stand for and believe in. When he endorses me, it does not mean that I embrace everything that he stands for and believes. And I am very proud of the Pastor John Hagee's spiritual leadership to thousands of people and I am proud of his commitment to the independence and the freedom of the state of Israel. That does not mean that I support or endorse or agree with some of the things that Pastor John Hagee might have said or positions that he may have taken on other issues. I don't have to agree with everyone who endorses my candidacy. They are supporting my candidacy. I am not endorsing some of their positions."

McCain's campaign then released this statement:

"Yesterday, Pastor John Hagee endorsed my candidacy for president in San Antonio, Texas. However, in no way did I intend for his endorsement to suggest that I in turn agree with all of Pastor Hagee's views, which I obviously do not."

"I am hopeful that Catholics, Protestants and all people of faith who share my vision for the future of America will respond to our message of defending innocent life, traditional marriage, and compassion for the most vulnerable in our society."

But the criticism of McCain has continued. The Democratic National Committee subsequently released the following statements by Hagee, which attests to the full extent of his bigotry.

Hagee on Hurricane Katrina
"All hurricanes are acts of God because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that." [NPR Fresh Air, 9/18/06]

Hagee on Islamic Beliefs
Fresh Air host Terry Gross asked if Hagee believed that "all Muslims have a mandate to kill Christians and Jews," to which Hagee replied, "Well, the Quran teaches that. Yes, it teaches that very clearly." [NPR Fresh Air, 9/18/06]

Hagee on African-Americans
The San Antonio Express-News reported that Hagee was going to "meet with black religious leaders privately at an unspecified future date to discuss comments he made in his newsletter about a 'slave sale,' an East Side minister said Wednesday." The Express-News reported:

"Hagee, pastor of the 16,000-member Cornerstone Church, last week had announced a 'slave sale' to raise funds for high school seniors in his church bulletin, 'The Cluster.'

"The item was introduced with the sentence 'Slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone" and ended with "Make plans to come and go home with a slave." [San Antonio Express-News 3/7/96]

Hagee on Catholicism
"Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews." [Jerusalem Countdown by John Hagee]

Hagee on Women
"Do you know the difference between a woman with PMS and a snarling Doberman pinscher? The answer is lipstick. Do you know the difference between a terrorist and a woman with PMS? You can negotiate with a terrorist." [God's Profits: Faith, Fraud and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters, Sarah Posner]

"[T]he feminist movement today is throwing off authority in rebellion against God's pattern for the family." ["Bible Positions on Political Issues," John Hagee]

Hagee on LGBT Americans
"The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know that there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the day of judgment." [NPR Fresh Air, 9/18/06]

Hagee on Iran
"The coming nuclear showdown with Iran is a certainty," Hagee wrote [in 2006] in the Pentecostal magazine Charisma. "Israel and America must confront Iran's nuclear ability and willingness to destroy Israel with nuclear weapons. For Israel to wait is to risk committing national suicide." The Nation, 8/8/2006,

McCain and his shadow, Joe Lieberman, while possibly attracting the religious right conservative base and remnants of racist Republican (and Democratic) voters, will at some point have to answer for Hagee's bigotry.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/1/93127/49515
23rd March 2008 04:17 PM
Nasty Habits On the subject of end game: I am seriously not trying to rag you on this one - I however did wonder, while reading the early part of this particular thread, what's the percentage of keeping this thread in play? I didn't post about it because I saw no point, but when Monkey_Man brought it up it echoed my earlier thoughts enough for me to notice it. I thought, however, your response to him, aside from its slight THIS FEEJEES HOUSE tone, was totally valid, but I mentioned it when you reposted an oldie and I didn't quite see why. But I do wonder where this is going, ultimately. Seriously, if the presence of Barack Obama in a Black Liberation Theology church for 20 years makes him a hypocrite, and if that is sinking him in the polls, won't this take care of itself? Are you trying to get the last word or the last 50 words?

As far as Obama's voting record, I asked that mainly rhetorically, and your response is pretty much what I figured it would be, well stated as usual. It was the best I had that was "new" so I tossed it out there as hopefully a double sided coin as to how people could either be concerned or not. I was trying to show you the respect of giving you the legit response you asked for. If the majority of the country is concerned enough about the hypocrisy of sitting in the church for 20 years and then coming out on a platform of his new kind of politics then he will have his ass handed to him, too.

Is it entirely unreasonable to think, and again, I don't know that I believe this, but is it entirely unreasonable to think that Obama, who by your own statements has no legit black experience of his own, gained an understanding of the culture by observing and being a part of Rev. Wright's church? Is it possible that his experience of some of the things said in and perceived by members of the church informed his perceptions of the racial divide that exists in this country, especially if he didn't agree with them? And is it possible that living in a largely white political world and this wholly black church culture helped inform his platform?

Feel free to bring up his financial contributions to the BLT and his statements that he'd never heard Wright say these things in the first place, I think that's the quickest counter argument.

But, yeah, I think you're right, I think you and I are pretty much done with this issue as well - or we can continue to debate it around and around until we really start to get pissed off and start calling each other Coulter and Franken like we did the last time we found ourselves in a lengthy debate. I was trying to bow out a day or two ago before I got drawn back into long ass paragraphs today. I guess that circles back to the endgame thing I started out with - We're probably not going to convince each other of anything, so why are you still trying?

For that matter, why am I?


[Edited by Nasty Habits]
23rd March 2008 04:22 PM
Fiji Joe From the Ron Paul war room...Shades of Capone..Shades of Kissinger


McCain’s Career Financed by Mob Money

Arizona politics greatly influenced by former associates of Bronfman, Lansky

By Michael Collins Piper

SELF-STYLED REPUBLICAN “reformer” John McCain is right now positioned as one of the top figures in the race for the GOP presidential nomination. But one thing about McCain that the mass media chooses not to report is his family connection to the organized crime-connected interests that have run the state of Arizona (through both major political parties) since at least the 1940s.

To understand McCain—in particular his devotion to the interests of Israel—it is necessary to recognize the little-known fact that the powerful Bronfman family empire, based on its Seagram’s liquor fortune and its controlling influence over the Time-Warner media conglomerate, has been the primary behind-the-scenes force dominating Arizona politics.

While the Bronfman family first came to power in Montreal in the 1920s under Sam Bronfman, a foremost partner of U.S.-based organized crime chieftain Meyer Lansky whose so-called “Mafia” henchmen peddled Bronfman liquor in the United States during Prohibition, the current head of the family, Edgar Bronfman, spent many years as president of the powerful World Jewish Congress.

The Bronfmans, along with the Rothschilds of Europe, the Oppenheimers of South Africa, and Armand Hammer of the United States—all patrons of Israel and the global Zionist network—constituted what has been dubbed the “Billionaire Gang of Four.” But the Bronfman family has emerged as the virtual royal family of American Zionism, and their tentacles reach far and wide throughout the United States through a vast array of holdings little known to the public.

One particularly famous Texas-based mob functionary, nightclub keeper Jack Ruby, for example, is known to have actually been a lieutenant of the Bronfman family (a point that has often been lost or suppressed in the legends surrounding Ruby’s ties to organized crime). And it is known—although again not mentioned by most JFK assassination “researchers”— that Ruby was a key player in a Texas-based network smuggling arms (stolen from U.S. military installations) to Israel, the Bronfman empire’s favorite foreign nation.

Aside from that historical digression, the fact (relevant to our review of John McCain) is that McCain’s home state of Arizona has long been under Bronfman control.

While most Americans perceive Arizona as a paradise of cowboys, cacti and wide-open spaces and a conservative stronghold independent of the corruption and intrigue found in the big cities like New York, Miami, Chicago and Los Angeles, Arizona ranks right up alongside the great crime capitals. That status can be traced directly to the influence of the Bronfmans.

The Bronfmans are the “godfathers” behind the political career of John McCain.

In 1976 a crusading Phoenix reporter, Don Bolles, was murdered by a car bomb after writing a series of stories exposing the organized crime connections of a wide-ranging number of well-known figures in Arizona, including one Jim Hensley. Five years later “Honest John” McCain arrived in Arizona as the new husband of Hensley’s daughter, Cindy. “From the moment McCain landed in Phoenix,” according to Charles Lewis of the Center for Public Integrity, “the Hensleys were key sponsors of his political career.” But the people behind the Hensley fortune are even more controversial.

McCain’s late father-in-law was the owner of the biggest Anheuser-Busch beer distributorship in Arizona—one of the largest beer distributors in the nation. But the mainstream media has had nothing to say about the origins of the Hensley fortune that financed McCain’s rise to power. The Hensley fortune is a regional offshoot of the big-time bootlegging and rackets empire of the Bronfman dynasty.

McCain’s father-in-law got his start as a top henchman for Kemper Marley, who, for 40 years until his death in 1990 at age 84, was the undisputed behind-the-scenes political boss of Arizona. But Marley was much more than a machine politician. In fact, he was also the Lansky crime syndicate’s top man in Arizona, the protege of a Lansky lieutenant, Phoenix gambler Gus Greenbaum.

In 1941 Greenbaum had set up the Transamerica Publishing and News Service, which operated a national wire for bookmakers. In 1946 Greenbaum turned over the day-to-day operations to Marley while Greenbaum focused on building up Lansky-run casinos in Las Vegas, commuting there from his home in Phoenix. Greenbaum, in fact, was so integral to the Lansky empire that he was the one who took command of Lansky’s Las Vegas interests in 1947 after Lansky ordered the execution of his own longtime friend, Benjamin “Bugsy” Siegel, for skimming mob profits from the new Flamingo Casino.

Greenbaum and his wife were murdered in a mob “hit” in 1948, their throats cut. The murder set off a series of gangland wars in Phoenix, but Marley survived and prospered.

During this time Marley was building up a liquor distribution monopoly in Arizona. According to Marley’s longtime public relations man, Al Lizanitz, it was the Bronfman family that set Marley up in the liquor business. In 1948, 52 of Marley’s employees (including Jim Hensley) went to jail for federal liquor violations—but not Marley.

The story in Arizona is that Hensley took the fall for Marley and, upon his release from prison, Marley paid back Hensley’s loyalty by setting him up in the beer distribution business. That beer company today, said to be worth $200 million, is what largely financed John McCain’s political career. The support from the Bronfman-Marley-Hensley network was integral to McCain’s rise to power.

The attorney who handled Hensley’s legal defense, forging the deal that set in motion Hensley’s windfall (that now benefits McCain), was William Rehnquist, who later became chief justice of the United States, later to be joined on the court by one of his own former girlfriends from Arizona, Sandra Day O’Connor. The one-vote margin on the Supreme Court that handed the presidency to George W. Bush following the 2000 election debacle might be considered a product of the “Bronfman bloc.”

McCain’s father-in-law had also dabbled in the dog racing business and he expanded his family fortune further by selling his dog racing track to an individual connected to the Emprise Corp., run by the Buffalo-based Jacobs family.

The Jacobs family was the leading distributor for Bronfman liquor smuggled into the United States during Prohibition and controlled the “spigot” of Bronfman liquor pouring into the casks of local gangs that were part of the Lansky syndicate. Expanding over the years, buying up horse and dog racing tracks and developing food and drink concessions at sports stadiums, the Jacobs family’s enterprises were once described as being “probably the biggest quasi-legitimate cover for organized crime’s money-laundering in the United States.”

While John McCain himself cannot be held personally responsible for the sins of his father-in-law, the fact is that this “reformer” owes his political and financial fortunes to the good graces of the biggest names in organized crime. Today, the Las Vegas gambling industry is among McCain’s primary financial benefactors. This brief overview is just the tip of the iceberg but it does say much about McCain and the political milieu that spawned him, particularly in light of McCain’s front-line position as one of Israel’s leading congressional water-carriers.

Doing Israel’s bidding is a McCain family tradition. Following Israel’s 1967 attack on the USS Liberty, resulting in the murder of 34 Americans, McCain’s father, Adm. John McCain, was one of the key players inside the U.S. Navy helping cover up the deliberate nature of Israel’s savage attack. “Like father, like son” clearly means something when it comes to the McCains. 

http://www.ronpaulwarroom.com/?p=4061
23rd March 2008 04:38 PM
Fiji Joe
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:
On the subject of end game: I am seriously not trying to rag you on this one - I however did wonder, while reading the early part of this particular thread, what's the percentage of keeping this thread in play? I didn't post about it because I saw no point, but when Monkey_Man brought it up it echoed my earlier thoughts enough for me to notice it. I thought, however, your response to him, aside from its slight THIS FEEJEES HOUSE tone, was totally valid, but I mentioned it when you reposted an oldie and I didn't quite see why. But I do wonder where this is going, ultimately. Seriously, if the presence of Barack Obama in a Black Liberation Theology church for 20 years makes him a hypocrite, and if that is sinking him in the polls, won't this take care of itself? Are you trying to get the last word or the last 50 words?

As far as Obama's voting record, I asked that mainly rhetorically, and your response is pretty much what I figured it would be, well stated as usual. It was the best I had that was "new" so I tossed it out there as hopefully a double sided coin as to how people could either be concerned or not. I was trying to show you the respect of giving you the legit response you asked for. If the majority of the country is concerned enough about the hypocrisy of sitting in the church for 20 years and then coming out on a platform of his new kind of politics then he will have his ass handed to him, too.

Is it entirely unreasonable to think, and again, I don't know that I believe this, but is it entirely unreasonable to think that Obama, who by your own statements has no legit black experience of his own, gained an understanding of the culture by observing and being a part of Rev. Wright's church? Is it possible that his experience of some of the things said in and perceived by members of the church informed his perceptions of the racial divide that exists in this country, especially if he didn't agree with them? And is it possible that living in a largely white political world and this wholly black church culture helped inform his platform?

Feel free to bring up his financial contributions to the BLT and his statements that he'd never heard Wright say these things in the first place, I think that's the quickest counter argument.

But, yeah, I think you're right, I think you and I are pretty much done with this issue as well - or we can continue to debate it around and around until we really start to get pissed off and start calling each other Coulter and Franken like we did the last time we found ourselves in a lengthy debate. I was trying to bow out a day or two ago before I got drawn back into long ass paragraphs today. I guess that circles back to the endgame thing I started out with - We're probably not going to convince each other of anything, so why are you still trying?

For that matter, why am I?


[Edited by Nasty Habits]



As long as I've been here, I've never seen anyone admit to changing their political opinion based on anything someone has argued...I'll be honest with you...despite what I think of Obama, he'd have my vote tomorrow if he'd say the magic words...but he's the least likely candidate to do that
23rd March 2008 04:40 PM
Nasty Habits Fair enough. Mind games on a number of levels, plus congenital posting gene = on we go.

I'll bite, what are the magic words?

23rd March 2008 04:45 PM
Fiji Joe
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:
Fair enough. Mind games on a number of levels, plus congenital posting gene = on we go.

I'll bite, what are the magic words?





I'm not going there...I wasn't throwing that out as bait...There are far too many people here willing to talk out of their ass on the issues I'm concerned with and their importance...I know because it's been argued...needless to say, none of the candidates are addressing them with any substance...and that's a real bad thing for America...because other nations are addressing them
23rd March 2008 04:47 PM
Nasty Habits And see, here I thought you were setting me up for a real zinger. I was even going to let you borrow Groucho Mick.


23rd March 2008 05:45 PM
Brainbell Jangler
quote:
Fiji Joe wrote:
From the Ron Paul war room...Shades of Capone..Shades of Kissinger


McCain’s Career Financed by Mob Money

Arizona politics greatly influenced by former associates of Bronfman, Lansky

By Michael Collins Piper



MICHAEL COLLINS PIPER???
That's your idea of a credible source? An anti-Semitic proto-fascist who believes Israeli Mossad agents were involved in the assassination of JFK? Hoo-boy!
23rd March 2008 05:54 PM
Brainbell Jangler
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:


Jangly?



Happy Easter!





Right back atcha, mate!
23rd March 2008 05:56 PM
Fiji Joe
quote:
Brainbell Jangler wrote:

MICHAEL COLLINS PIPER???
That's your idea of a credible source? An anti-Semitic proto-fascist who believes Israeli Mossad agents were involved in the assassination of JFK? Hoo-boy!



Yeah...I figured you didn't want to address any of the issues I raised...because no matter how you spin it, it just looks bad for Obama...I don't think I claimed anything as credible...or even true...that's why I provided the link...You were calling people out...let's hear from ya...FPM would at least call me a fascist or something
23rd March 2008 06:03 PM
Brainbell Jangler
quote:
Fiji Joe wrote:


Yeah...I figured you didn't want to address any of the issues I raised...because no matter how you spin it, it just looks bad for Obama...I don't think I claimed anything as credible...or even true...that's why I provided the link...You were calling people out...let's hear from ya...FPM would at least call me a fascist or something


Please explain why you consider Michael Collins Piper a credible source.
23rd March 2008 06:04 PM
Fiji Joe
quote:
Brainbell Jangler wrote:

LA LA LA LA





Don't say I didn't say it
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