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| glencar |
Riffy, I'll be away until Monday. ACOC doesn't hold much promise. They're too conservative. |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
glencar wrote:
Riffy, I'll be away until Monday. ACOC doesn't hold much promise. They're too conservative.
I tend to agree with you there Blue. God forbid you should ever mention something that differs with their biblical beliefs. Some of the posters are cool and rational enough to have a decent sense of humor,but yeah,I see what you mean.
Riffy |
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| jb |
Riffy, Russia was supplying Sadam with intelligence as the war broke out...!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why does Bush trust him? Why?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060324/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_war
[Edited by jb] |
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| SheRat |
quote:
PeerQueer wrote:
______
Liam Neeson is a great actor and beloved son of Ireland!
Also a physically intimidating presence - I ran into him at the front desk of the Empress in Victoria in 1998. I am a smidge over 6 feet and he towered over me! Incredibly large hands and a very firm grip. He was very quiet and well mannered, though looked a bit older and thinner than he appears on screen.
A class act.
As my boss once said, fuckability in a can!
[Edited by SheRat] |
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| pdog |
quote:
FPM C10 wrote:
Oh man, P Doggy Dog!
I am Bob Tilton's biggest fan!!!!
I have HOURS of his TV ranting from the 90s on tape. In fact I used to sell "Bob Tilton's Greatest Hits" tapes through Psychotronic Magazine.
Costa Basoya! Basoya Basanto!
[Edited by FPM C10]
I would call them all the time, when I was really high, I wish I recorded the calls...
Awesome gif...
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| lotsajizz |
quote:
jostorm wrote:
Riffy: nice little butt you have there, Luv!
I read in the newspaper the other day that on Christmas Day 1917 (I think, well, one of the Christmasses during the First World War anyway), the French and the German side lay down their arms at the front for a brief interlude, put up two socker teams, and spontaneously and innocently kicked a ball around, with everyone else watching and cheering them on....I guess that after the match they resumed trying to shoot one another....
it was Xmas '14, the War's first year and the incident (actually it happened at about a dozen or so points along the lines) was between tommies and jerries, and once their commanders caught wind of it, there was no repetition in future years....
it was the dramatized subject of one of Macca's insidious early 80's videos....
[Edited by lotsajizz] |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
I feel no guilt about posting a picture that I knew would offend people like you.
With its arrogant stupidity? I'm not sure it actually OFFENDS me as much as it just makes me shake my head at the layers of cluelessness it evinces. If you put it there just to offend "people like me" (i.e. the majority of Americans), mission accomplished!
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Phallic? Naw. Not really Joanna.
Riffy, "phallic" means shaped like a penis. Whether you want to ADMIT it or not, your footer is full of penises.
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
See three of my closest friends were incinerated,or crushed to death when a couple of rather phallic looking buildings came crashing down on them. It would seem that 19 very homo-phobic Islamic fucks decided to highjack four very phallic airplanes and kill a slew of people who were just going about their daily lives.
Yes, Riffy. We all heard about it. And unless you can find a skyscraper full of radical muslims who were actively involved in it to fly your big manly plane into, then the only things you will accomplish are the things I mentioned: kill a bunch of women and children, or destroy infrastructure. (And make a bunch of dirty money for men devoid of either conscience or soul.)
And even if you DO find that target, it's not going to bring your friends back.
See that's sorta the the modus operandi of terrorists, OR insurgents, for that matter. They fight dirty. NOBODY is EVER going to march out into a Flanders-like field and challenge us mano a mano to an old fashioned war. So our old-fashioned war machines are only good for the things I've mentioned. And, evidently, making you feel more manly.
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Some people would like to somehow find a way to blame America(or Bush,Cheney,Rumsfeld,or evil Halliburton!) for this happening in the first place. I don't do that because I have no problem seeing the truth of the matter. These people(for lack of a better word)have become brainwashed by an evil death cult that would like us all dead.
Hmmm...brainwashed by an evil death cult...
I don't BLAME those assholes for 9/11. I DO blame them for USING those deaths to further their own unrelated agenda. Some of the victim's families do too. Maybe you should think about that.
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Please see-Spain,Bali,Kenya,Tanzania,Yemen,London,Berlin,Israel,France,Chechneya,Suadi Arabia,Malaysia,Singapore,.....were all of the Islamic attacks in these countries the fault of the West? Bush? Blair? Clinton? Nope.
And who, exactly, said it was? It wasn't ME. It wasn't the newbie. Musta been...
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
I hope that pretty much settles it for you Flea. But hey,if you don't like the picture of our amazing military mite than just look at Johnny's finger. It's rather phallic too!
Man, Sigmund Freud woulda had a field day with you. Pssst...Riffy...."mite" means very very small. Microscopic almost.
Hey, I'm sorry the whole phallic thing came up, since it got you so worked up. It's like, your buddy's fly is down - do you tell him, or do you just let him walk around with his dick hanging out? Well, Riffy, your fly is down.
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Oh,one more thing. Is that a strawman argument? 'Cause I could really give a flying fuck one way or the other.
Riffy
Of course it is. It's the only kind of argument you ever win.
NOBODY is siding with the terrorists, as much as you and your dumb ass president would like to say that's so. We're saying that you can drop every bomb ever made (or more to the point every bomb ever SOLD) on the Middle East and it's not going to stop terrorism.
The radical muslims who killed your friends are already dead, and, one would hope, burning in hell. The ones who planned it are mostly still free because your hero got sidetracked in Iraq and can't get his dick out of the meatgrinder. And you look at me as un-American and a villain because I don't advocate turning into radical extremist torturing murdering killers ourselves to avenge their deaths. Well, good on ya. I wouldn't have it any other way.
No straw men were hurt in the making of this argument. But if you want a straw man, how about this:
What's your religion, Riffy? The one that says "Vengeance is MINE, thus saith the Lord"? The one that says "Love thine enemies"? The one that says "Turn the other cheek"? Just wondering. Do you just ignore the parts that aren't convenient, or did God come and tell you personally that it was okay to forget about it? |
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| lotsajizz |
now THAT'S postin'....as Joey would say....well done, FPM man |
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| jostorm |
Shit, it's midnight and I have insomnia. Or perhaps I got addicted to you loonies??? Dreadful thought, I hardly met you..Oh well, today's day 12 without my beloved Camels (no, not the humpbacked desert creature, the fags!). Guess that makes this thread into my nicotine replacement trip...
Hi, Nanky-Nanky! Nice to meet you, too, if I'd only known you're into hairy women! I would have searched you out twenty years ago and saved myself a lot of pain and suffering while having my legs waxed, Dear....Which reminds me, Ms Hilton looks like she has developed a brazilian waxing rash, can someone please pass her the aloe vera???....What is it with you lot and her??? Do you really find her attractive??? I find that really hard to believe...To me she just spells out "PLASTIC"....(no, not the credit cards, as in: artificial, shallow, clicheed, devoid of any depth, you could probably wade through her deepest thoughts for years and hardly moisten your shoes' soles, etc...)
FPMC10: Read my lips: it's pointless to argue with him, he doesn't get it and never will.....
RIFFY: Please don't make me copy and paste my posting again, please........On second thoughts...Riffy??? Was that REALLY you on that picture with the cute butt????.....Hang on a minute...now I understand!!!!!!!!!!! It really was over-compensatory behaviour, wasn't it???...Oh, come on, man, just do it! I know you can! Come on! Just come out of the closet already, I promise you that you will have my support all the way, you could even have my cell number and could ring me anytime of day or night if you have a moment of pain or doubt, never mind the time-zone difference, no, my husband won't mind, he's a travelling salesman, he won't even notice, honest!....You owe it to yourself, man! Just imagine: a life surrounded by kittens and Liberace, and not a single weapon to be seen in any of your posts....ever..... Just think of how empowered and at peace you will feel, with all that negative Karma and hateful vibes flowing away from you , leaving nothing but softness and tenderness behind...A life surrounded by kittens and devoid of anger.....Riffy, JUST DO IT, I'M HERE FOR YOU !!!!!!!!! ........
PS: is that Gazza's sheep??? |
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| jostorm |
Thanks, lotzajizz!! I keep learning new stuff from you lot, RO really is an amazing fountain of knowledge......Should have skipped university and logged on here instead....
(And now I'll beat the bastards if ever the question comes up in Trivial Pursuit, Ha!)
[Edited by jostorm] |
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| Riffhard |
Uhh yeah ok Flea. As your boy Freud said,"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I would say the same thing concerning missles.
That you would allow someone with differing political opinions to shape your idea of intelligence is beyond me. I have never tried to make this personal with you,but you have always done that with me,and others. That's your bussiness,and you're free to feel the way you like. One thing that does stick out like a sore thumb in your rant is that,like most liberals,you seem to think that you're the smartest one in the room all the time. You're not. So come down off your high horse.
I have tried to keep our different attitudes seperate from our on-line friendship,but your hatered of anything that differs from your liberal mindset is troubling to me. It is beyond close minded. It reeks of arrogance,anger,and contempt of anyone you do not agree with.
While I have no problem at all in standing up for my beliefs,strongly at that. I never let it get in the way of friendship. Some here can not seem to have that disconnect. You seem to be firmly in that camp. So does Jizzboy for that matter,but then again I never quaffed pints with him. I never shared a spliff with him. I have no doubt that you are a cool guy as I have met you on more than one occassion,but your blatantly self-righteous attitude about politics leaves no room for an agree-to-disagree compromise.
The funny thing is that for a liberal you have no problem trying to play the "gay card"! Funny that you would consider that an insult? Where is your liberal "incluseivness"?
Joanna you seem to be rather witty. Good for you,but again,you are also trying to bait me with some gay cracks? I don't get it frankly. It doesn't bother me so much as it makes me scratch my head,and ponder why? Gay? Me? No,but I find nothing wrong with that if that is your particular cup of meat. I feel it comes down to a deliberate jab because you have a different view of things than I. Well perhaps we should just celebrate our differences,and not dwell on those things which we will never agree on. Or you can be like others,and just hate for the sake of hateing? Strange though that may be.
Riffy
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| lotsajizz |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Or you can be like others,and just hate for the sake of hateing?
news flash...pot calls kettle black
twice in one week!!
OK now
Cazart! |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
lotsajizz wrote:
news flash...pot calls kettle black
twice in one week!!
OK now
Cazart!
Wrong again Jizzy. I have never hated Flea. To the contrary. I have partied with the man,and would do so again should we ever meet up again. You on the other hand. Well let's just say that you have always gone out of your way to be an asshole to me. So I just figured I'd return the favor. Even when I have tried to find common ground with you I have been rebuffed. So,you know,why should I continue to try? Your hatered is far too close to the surface for me to sweat.
OK now
Cafuckoff!
Riffy |
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| pdog |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
OK now
Cafuckoff!
Riffy
That's Excellent... |
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| Osama bin Hiding |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
...But hey,if you don't like the picture of our amazing military mite than just look at Johnny's finger. It's rather phallic too! ...
Riffy
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| lotsajizz |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
You on the other hand. Well let's just say that you have always gone out of your way to be an asshole to me.
what goes around, comes around
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| jostorm |
Morning to all my black pots and kettles!
Riffy: I know it's hard to suss out real intent or meaning of words without talking in person and seing my face, let me just say that no, it's not "an obsession of mine", it was just a simple joke.... Perhaps I went one level too far? I personally blame it on the late hour and the nicotine withdrawal......
I will have to agree to disagree with you on the productivity of armed conflict, we will never reach a level of understanding and true dialogue, simply because you are being eaten up by anger and hatred and thirst for revenge and won't allow any other point of view in case, God forbid, you may be labelled a "liberal"....
I truly feel for you, having lost three mates like that would probably have mentally scarred anyone. For my part, I have never suffered such dreadful loss, the nearest I can get is having lost my lifelong soul-sister to leukaemia after an 8 year fight, but of course getting angry at the "culprit" would be a bit pointless in this case...
I do sometimes wonder how many thousands of people were mentally scarred by 9/11 like you are, and what is the best way of reaching some type of "closure" that lets you really pick up the fragments of life as it was, and carry on with a semblance of normality. Let me just say that all this anger and hatred does not necessarily get you anywhere, I believe these emotions only eat you up internally and harm you in the long term, and that perhaps your three dead friends wouldn't necessarily want you to live like this, but who am I to really know??? All I can say is that I truly believe that these terrorists are untouchable, because they don't "tick" like we do. I mean, would you or I detonnate a bomb near the invading soldiers in a street market, if we knew that 50 of our own kiddies were hanging around for candy?? No, we wouldn't. So, these are the type of psychoes we are dealing with....
Until the day comes when your government or the FBI (or whoever is meant to look out for civilians' safety) can READ PEOPLE'S MINDS and ANTICIPATE DANGEROUS INTENT, no one will be safe from them. 9/11 proved just that. Going and invading Iraq and killing thousands of civilians in collateral damage only makes Americans more of a "sitting duck target". You ought to read my original posting again,I truly believe it is all down to meddling in other people's politics for decades, sooner or later someone was going to come to your own front step and do you harm, to believe otherwise was a tad naive and stupid of your politicians.
It's all very well feeding millions of $ into the IRA (and they killed PLENTY of innocent British civilians), and to one-sidedly support Israel while the Palestinians have a conflict with them, and to nuke Japan (ok, "that was war" you'll say,"so is this" I'll retort!),topple Allende, drop napalm and agent orange onto Vietnam, and so on and so on, the list is endless....., BUT when these islamic terrorists suddenly declare a war and cause an enormous tragedy in NYC, you are all outraged at their callousness???? As far as I remember, no one signed a contract with the US stating that you would remain untouchable until kingdom come, did they?
Anyway, food for thought there.
I travel to Egypt three times a year at least. Yes, it is an islamic country. Yes, the hotel immediately next to the one I always stay at was recently totally destroyed by a bomb and many innocent people died.And no, it doesn't stop me from going. I just take the stance that if I changed the way I live at all, then the bastards would have won. I just rely on my guardian angel and hope he'll look out for me (I bet he looks just like your naked friend, but with wings!!)and my family. So far he has served me well.... But none of us is safe, no matter how angry we are.
Have a good weekend. I could mail you a kitten, if you like? |
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| lotsajizz |
I'm sure Joey would allow me now say that I would like to nuzzle you....
THAT'S postin'
OK now Cazart! |
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| Maxlugar |
[quote]Riffhard wrote:
I tend to agree with you there Blue. God forbid you should ever mention something that differs with their biblical beliefs. Some of the posters are cool and rational enough to have a decent sense of humor,but yeah,I see what you mean.
Riffy, God Bless America.
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| Riffhard |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
Riffy, God Bless America.
Yes thank you Maxy! You know my friend I just don't think that they get it?
For example,Joanna here seems to think that I am emotionally scarred! Joanna I'm not emotionally scarred at all. I am just not naive about the nature of the enemy. Nor am I wont to blame America for the tactics that they use. I could post pictures of young girls (12-15)who have been beheaded by their fathers because they had been raped and were considered unclean. Let's talk about Nick Berg shall we? His head was sawed off with a kitchen knife while his captors shouted "Allah Akkbar!" These bastards can not be reasoned with at all! This "reach a level of understanding and true dialogue" talk sounds all nice and stuff,but it naive in the extreme.
You blame the USA for this?!?!? Uhhh,Joanna was it the USA's fault for the bombings in all the other nations that I mentioned earlier? The riots in France? USA's fault? Bali? Berlin? London? I'm just not afraid to call it for what it is. And what it is is worldwide jihad. They want YOU dead too Joanna. Not all of them mind you. Just the one's that have highjacked the religion,and turned it into the radical death cult that Sharria Law is based upon.
Who has killed more muslims than any other goverment in history? That would be the former goverment of Saddam Hussain! He is credited with the death of over twenty five million muslims during his reign of terror! Then you have the audacity to try and lay blame on Israel for the Palistinian terrorists?!?!?! I am afraid you have not really studied the history of the PLO,or the Palistinians very well Joanna. They are originally from Jordon. Jordon wants absolutly nothing to do with them. Nor does any other Arab nation. So they have become Israel's problem. Israel has made major concessions to them. Yet they still refuse to acknowledge Israel's exisistance! They have vowed to destroy Israel,and constantly brainwash young Palistinian minds that jews are evil incarnate. Then they talk these kids into straping bomb belts on and killing innocents in the name of Allah.
No,I'm not emotionaly scarred I just know the nature of the vicious thugs that we are at war with. This has nothing to do with vengence per se. It is more about acknowledging the threat and removing that threat before it strikes again.
Believe it or not there is such a thing as good vs evil. If you are trying to equivicate the morality of these jihadist then you have already lost the argument in my mind. We did not create them. They have a jihadist mindset driven by a 12th century ideology based on the ancient Law of Sharia. Their goal is simple. They want to clense the world of infidels. Everyone on this forum is an infidel Joanna. I'm not making this shit up either. You can read it yourself on any number of Islamic websites. The president of Iran just one month ago said his goal was,"To bring about the end times in the name of Allah!" Those are his words not mine. He is championing the start of Armeggedon!
I'm just not gonna pretend that dialogue is gonna work with these jihadists. I'm not blind to the history of radical Islam. Some people are,and they would sooner bury their head in the sand and sing Kumbaya than see the true nature of radical Islam. That won't work. The last thirty five years have proven that beyond the shadow of any doubt.
Joanna please take a minute to peruse the web link I have provided and scroll down to the list of Islamic terror in just the last six months. You may see things in a different light. You may also take note of the fact that most of these acts were muslim on muslim terror,and have absolutly nothing to do with the USA's war on terror. It's a war that must be fought. Just because we stop fighting does not mean that they will. Sad but true.
Here--->The True Nature of Islam
Riffy |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
25,000,000? Saddam? How do you come up with that figure?
The entire population of Iraq is about 26,000,000.
[Edited by Ten Thousand Motels] |
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| justforyou |
I presume the red colour on the map symbolises Communism or it's cousin the Confederate Flag... |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
quote:
justforyou wrote:
I presume the red colour on the map symbolises Communism or it's cousin the Confederate Flag...
Actually, it's a population distribution map of the USA. Even the Republicans aknowledge that Gore won the popular vote nationally in 2000. |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
Ten Thousand Motels wrote:
25,000,000? Saddam? How do you come up with that figure?
The entire population of Iraq is about 26,000,000.
[Edited by Ten Thousand Motels]
Iran/Iraq war. The invasion of Kuwait. Political assinations. The figues are from the Hoover Institue. However,you are correct I misspoke. The number is not that high. It is closer to 13 million. Others claim the figure is slightly lower still. Keep in mind that this figure includes his own troops and Iraqi civilians as well.
Though it is an absolute fact that Saddam is credited with killing more muslims than any other world leader in history.
Also the figure that I used was actually a tally of deaths that Saddam can be directly tied to via the link that I provided in the previous post. So my mistake there. This does not change the facts about the nature of Islamic jihad though.
Did you read that shit TTM? Pretty fucked up,huh? Crazy bastards.
Riffy
[Edited by Riffhard] |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
justforyou wrote:
I presume the red colour on the map symbolises Communism or it's cousin the Confederate Flag...
It's a county by county breakdown of who voted for who in the 2004 election. Red being Bush. Communism? LOL! No that would be closer to the socialist agenda of many on the left.
Riffy |
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| pdog |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
Maxy I love you like a brother... Most of the red area is places where very few if any people live...
Republican rocks, lakes, trees and shit is fine with me. Population wise this shit is pretty much dead even. And 90% of dems and Repubs are moderates... They're the political equivilent of bi-sexuals, they'll go either way.
Who they fooling?
There is one thing, I'm 100% positive of: Someday, this war is gonna end...
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| Riffhard |
quote:
pdog wrote:
Maxy I love you like a brother... Most of the red area is places where very few if any people live...
Republican rocks, lakes, trees and shit is fine with me. Population wise this shit is pretty much dead even. And 90% of dems and Repubs are moderates... They're the political equivilent of bi-sexuals, they'll go either way.
Who they fooling?
There is one thing, I'm 100% positive of: Someday, this war is gonna end...
Your right ofcourse Pdog,but don't that map look pretty?
Sorry couldn't help myself!
Riffy |
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| Starbuck |
riffy...i just have to pipe up here. you have several important inaccurracies in that last post that need to be pointed out.
quote:
Who has killed more muslims than any other goverment in history? That would be the former goverment of Saddam Hussain! He is credited with the death of over twenty five million muslims during his reign of terror!
where did you get this bit of information from? i am guessing you are counting the dead on both sides from the iran/iraq war in the 80s? counting war dead is different from counting the number of dead civilians from gas attacks or execution squads.
i don't know the exact number of people that were killed by saddam, but certainly it can't be as high as the average 30 people per day that die as a result of this war.
quote:
Then you have the audacity to try and lay blame on Israel for the Palistinian terrorists?!?!?! I am afraid you have not really studied the history of the PLO,or the Palistinians very well Joanna. They are originally from Jordon. Jordon wants absolutly nothing to do with them. Nor does any other Arab nation. So they have become Israel's problem.
yes, well, um...riffy, i don't mean to sound like a dink here, but what are you talking about? the palestinians are from jordan? you make starbuck say, "huh?" arabs have lived in palestine since the original arab invasions of the middle east a decade after the death of the prophet (early 640s AD). when israeli statehood was declared and the war of independence fought in 1947-48, those palestinians who lived in what is now israel were basically herded up into the west bank and gaza, having been either killed or kicked off their land by the israelis. at that time, the WB and gaza were part of jordan...and many palestinian refugees fled into jordan....during the 67 war, gaza and the WB were taken by the israelis, and the palestinians wound up getting herded again into refugee camps. but saying they are from jordan makes about as much sense as saying the sioux are from oklahoma.
quote:
Israel has made major concessions to them. Yet they still refuse to acknowledge Israel's exisistance! They have vowed to destroy Israel,and constantly brainwash young Palistinian minds that jews are evil incarnate. Then they talk these kids into straping bomb belts on and killing innocents in the name of Allah.
part of what you say is true here. the militant wing of hamas and islamic jihad and the rest do want to destroy israel, and they are absolute evil incarnate. but you have to ask yourself this: what makes a terrorist? why do these young boys want to strap the bombs to their chests in the first place?
riffy, i have been to gaza twice. i've been to refugee camps in the west bank. and let me tell you this: the absolute squalor i saw there will be etched into my mind until the day i day. those people live lives of poverty and destitution none of us can ever imagine. if you are born into this life, by the time you get to a certain age you realize there is no way out. you lose complete hope because you know that you, your family and you grandkids' families will always live in a 15 x 15 foot shack in a shantytown outside gaza city. you will never get to go to school or travel because a) you make 25 cents a day tops, and b) no one will let you out of gaza because you have neither a passport or a country to issue said passport.
i look at the arab israeli conflict like a person who shares a house with someone but keeps that other person locked up in the basement and doesnt ever let him out. sure, he gives him enough food to survive. some water. but the guy downstairs is still a prisoner in his own home with no hope of getting cable, air conditioning or even a case of beer from time to time. so is israel to blame? you bet!
i know what you're saying...that is no excuse for strapping a bomb to your chest and taking out innocent civilians....and you are 100% correct. those people are fucks. they are dogmeat, and i hope god has a special room in hell where he keeps them stashed, a room where they force them to chew tinfoil, bite down on popsicle sticks and pull them out quick from your teeth, and have "hotel california" on constant replay.
BUT...if the israelis could only provide some hope to the palestinians, the problem of suicide bombings would go away. if you remove the poverty and destitution, you remove the seeds from which bombers sprout.
one last thing...why, you might ask, do they not try to help the palestinians clean up their house? the religious right! it is the religious right...on BOTH sides...that keeps fucking things up. they are a small minority of the population but they have a large amount of wealth and influence in politics. the religious right refuses to give up an inch of land etc etc. actually, i give sharon credit. he used to be a goddamn war criminal, but what he did in gaza last summer was nothing short of spectacular.
goddamn it! i have putzed around on this comper long enough! i have papers to correct! |
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| pdog |
This tree voted for Nader!!!
[Edited by pdog] |
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Your right ofcourse Pdog,but don't that map look pretty?
Sorry couldn't help myself!
Riffy
That map is meaningless. Except as a joke. Sure it makes republicans feel good, but other than that completely irrevelant. |
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