| March 18th, 2005 12:27 AM |
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| Bruno Stone |
I was watching FF a hour ago. I think Ronnie should play ALL the solos. Seeing Keith trying to is painful... Look at him in the Stadium disc, is shameful. His solo in Gimme Shelter? Sympathy? The lousy notes in Just Wnna Make Love To You? Everytime I watch the stadium disc I think Keith`s gonna fall dead onstage, he`s terrible playing.
Although Ronnie isn`t currently that good ( many will say he`s not good for many years...) I think he should play all the solos, he still can play a good solo, see him in Rock Me Baby from FF, compare his to Keith`s solo. Ronnie wins from far. Ronnie, when sober, still got something that Keith lost: speed.
Would be great, but Keith never would allow Ronnie to play the solos, and play them loud. Shame on you for this, Keith. |
| March 18th, 2005 04:08 AM |
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| IanBillen |
Ronnie probly will play the better share of solos. However, IMHO Keith can still jam it when he has to.
Ronnie seems to be responsible for playing the share of solos nowadays anyhow.
Ian |
| March 18th, 2005 07:07 AM |
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| J.J.Flash |
Please Bruno.....I'm sorry but you are wrong... I can't agree......I could take if you said something like "Keith was....hmmmm, let's say....out of shape"....but man... don't say such an unffair comment like this....
For the Christ's sake man.....almost every time Keith plays his solo on Gimme Shelter, it's almost always killer. I agree that he wasn't at his prime on FF, as well on the whole Licks Tour regarding solo.
Think about it man. Watch him on R'n'R circus....on SFTD he was sorta DEMONIAC.......what about those stirring renditions of Bye Bye Johnny with Taylor (which my fellow jewish pal Joshy misses so bad). |
| March 18th, 2005 07:10 AM |
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| corgi37 |
Whats the bet by show 5 of the next tour, Blondie plays all the solos? |
| March 18th, 2005 07:43 AM |
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| egon |
blondie, he's that little garden gnoom right?
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| March 18th, 2005 08:45 AM |
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| John Wood |
I agree with Bruno Stone. The Licks tour has to be Keith at his all time low for guitar playng especially solos. Just compare Satisfaction from Live Licks or Toronto Rocks to the official Bridges to Baybalon dvd. That says it all. |
| March 18th, 2005 09:18 AM |
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| waaghals |
Keith has always been and will allways be a riffmaster. He lays down the beat with Charlie. He never cared much about guitar solos (quote: I never intended to be the quickest guitar player in the wild west) , it always has been Mick Taylor's and Ronnie's task to play them! Occasionally he plays one. No big deal if he misses one.
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| March 18th, 2005 09:31 AM |
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| J.J.Flash |
Folks.....you can't ignore Keith's efforts on songs like Sympathy and so forth........ |
| March 18th, 2005 10:28 AM |
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| MidnightRambler |
Everyone rises to Keith's defenses and says he was never much of a soloist but more a riffmaster so we should let his lack of good solo's simply slide. Well, Keith has showed us in the past that he CAN give a good solo and kick ass at it. "Sympathy" from the Steel Wheels tour with that long ass solo is heavenly. On the Steel Wheels DVD he rips through each note and his guitar wails. And yes, Satisfcation from the B2B DVD is wonderful. Definitely what Keith has lost was the speed. He still has it for slashing chords--no problem there. But his solos are like him playing in slow motion.
I must say though, I was happy with the solos in "Sympathy" on FF. Although it's NO WHERE comparable to the old Keith--it's the best we'll ever get today. And it's really good. There's one point where Keith and Ronnie's "weaving" is SO damn tight you can't even distinguish who's playing what note. Guitars are everywhere. THe last 2 minutes of the song is great. Yeah, no speed but the emotion and feel is definitely there.
I must say...I sorta cringe when they have to play Satisfaction today for 2 reasons...it's a warhose so that means they have to make it 7 minutes and secondly cuz I don't look forward to the "solos" Keith plays. This past tour I think began the death of that song. B2B was the last time they played that well. |
| March 18th, 2005 10:32 AM |
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| voodoopug |
quote:
MidnightRambler wrote:
Everyone rises to Keith's defenses and says he was never much of a soloist but more a riffmaster so we should let his lack of good solo's simply slide. Well, Keith has showed us in the past that he CAN give a good solo and kick ass at it. "Sympathy" from the Steel Wheels tour with that long ass solo is heavenly. On the Steel Wheels DVD he rips through each note and his guitar wails. And yes, Satisfcation from the B2B DVD is wonderful. Definitely what Keith has lost was the speed. He still has it for slashing chords--no problem there. But his solos are like him playing in slow motion.
I must say though, I was happy with the solos in "Sympathy" on FF. Although it's NO WHERE comparable to the old Keith--it's the best we'll ever get today. And it's really good. There's one point where Keith and Ronnie's "weaving" is SO damn tight you can't even distinguish who's playing what note. Guitars are everywhere. THe last 2 minutes of the song is great. Yeah, no speed but the emotion and feel is definitely there.
I must say...I sorta cringe when they have to play Satisfaction today for 2 reasons...it's a warhose so that means they have to make it 7 minutes and secondly cuz I don't look forward to the "solos" Keith plays. This past tour I think began the death of that song. B2B was the last time they played that well.
a topic like this is the equivilant of walking strip club and yelling out "COVER YOUR CHESTS!"
this arguement will just stir up the "usual suspects" and cause nothing but greif to our fine moderators. |
| March 18th, 2005 11:01 AM |
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| Mel Belli |
Ronnie is still fairly competent on 12-bar blues like "Rock Me Baby," but on anything else, anything that requires a sense of melody, he's a hack. He bollixed up YCAGWYW nearly every time, and his attempts at CYHMK and "Worried about You" were painful.
Keith's soloing is in serious decline -- sluggish, repetitive and grating. Things started going south after the '93 solo tour, when he gave up those superb-sounding Ernie Ball guitars.
The only thing I'd add -- and pardon me for being an alarmist -- but I think his rhythm playing is in decline too. I've noticed Keith playing songs like "Stray Cat Blues" and "Let's Spend the Night Together" over the last two tours in open-G. My hunch is that he's having increasing trouble fretting basic standard-tuning chords.
His inability, or refusal, to play rhythm chords is the reason "Torn and Frayed" never took off on the Licks tour. Mick's acoustic guitar sounded thin and tinny, and Keith crapped all over it with his aimless arpeggios. Ronnie's b-bender was interesting, and then he started crapping all over it with pedal-steel. Grrr.
OK, enough negativity. |
| March 18th, 2005 11:12 AM |
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| J.J.Flash |
quote:
Mel Belli wrote:
Ronnie is still fairly competent on 12-bar blues like "Rock Me Baby," but on anything else, anything that requires a sense of melody, he's a hack. He bollixed up YCAGWYW nearly every time, and his attempts at CYHMK and "Worried about You" were painful.
Keith's soloing is in serious decline -- sluggish, repetitive and grating. Things started going south after the '93 solo tour, when he gave up those superb-sounding Ernie Ball guitars.
The only thing I'd add -- and pardon me for being an alarmist -- but I think his rhythm playing is in decline too. I've noticed Keith playing songs like "Stray Cat Blues" and "Let's Spend the Night Together" over the last two tours in open-G. My hunch is that he's having increasing trouble fretting basic standard-tuning chords.
His inability, or refusal, to play rhythm chords is the reason "Torn and Frayed" never took off on the Licks tour. Mick's acoustic guitar sounded thin and tinny, and Keith crapped all over it with his aimless arpeggios. Ronnie's b-bender was interesting, and then he started crapping all over it with pedal-steel. Grrr.
OK, enough negativity.
Sorry dude, but a typical naysayer.....but Mel....you are wrong fellow. How can you say that Ron's attempt on CYHMK at MSG was bad??? Man, it was superb, even those who are always negative about him admited that. He hadn't even tried to copy Taylor on it, and it sounded original and groovy, IMHFO.
I'm a Taylorette, Keith forever will be Keith.... but I hate all this negativeness on Ronnie.
[Edited by J.J.Flash] |
| March 18th, 2005 11:26 AM |
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| Jumacfly |
all Ronnie bashers should listen carefully to the palais royale gig..sharpy solos, great rythm, Ronnie rules this show!
their last real "great" live bootleg too IMHO... |
| March 18th, 2005 12:34 PM |
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| Zack |
All I can say is that Keith Richards has more talent in his little finger than Ronnie Wood's whole scrawny body (not that I don't love Woodie and think he is talented in no small measure).
The fact is that for the past decade Keith has suffered from serious arthritis in the fingers - what cruel irony to a man for whom playing the guitar is his life - and this causes me to doubt seriously Keith's ability to play the Stones' catalog anymore. His knuckles are swollen to absurd proportions. His alcoholism doesn't help his chops much either. |
| March 18th, 2005 03:58 PM |
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| ResidentMule |
I'm as guilty of Keith bashing as anybody (especially since he started considering himself to be a pirate) but it escapes me how you can bash Keith and play Ronnie in the same sentence. they were both equally as sloppy on the last tour. going by the Licks tour, its obvious they both need to spend more time with their guitars. it isn't JUST the arthritis (though that is certainly a big concern for Keith especially) - just neither of them really had anything to add like they used to. Keith always used to have an idea to throw into his rhythm guitar. if he hit the wrong chord, he'd save it with the next one and make it sound more like an act of genius than a mistake. on the Licks tour however, he'd fuck up the intros to half the songs and just keep going on with the disaster. Before they Make me Run comes to mind a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if Keith barely even touched his guitar between No Security and the Paris Sessions (then again, Ronnie barely touches his guitar even when on stage anymore)
but just watching the 97 DVD - Keith was playing that whole show practically by himself, they barely needed Ronnie to even be there. its been a while since I'd watched that one, but I was pretty impressed with how well he had held on to his chops for that long. Woody on the other hand hasn't played anything that's moved me since '81 |
| March 18th, 2005 05:28 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
ResidentMule wrote:
I'm as guilty of Keith bashing as anybody (especially since he started considering himself to be a pirate) but it escapes me how you can bash Keith and play Ronnie in the same sentence. they were both equally as sloppy on the last tour. going by the Licks tour, its obvious they both need to spend more time with their guitars. it isn't JUST the arthritis (though that is certainly a big concern for Keith especially) - just neither of them really had anything to add like they used to. Keith always used to have an idea to throw into his rhythm guitar. if he hit the wrong chord, he'd save it with the next one and make it sound more like an act of genius than a mistake. on the Licks tour however, he'd fuck up the intros to half the songs and just keep going on with the disaster. Before they Make me Run comes to mind a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if Keith barely even touched his guitar between No Security and the Paris Sessions (then again, Ronnie barely touches his guitar even when on stage anymore)
but just watching the 97 DVD - Keith was playing that whole show practically by himself, they barely needed Ronnie to even be there. its been a while since I'd watched that one, but I was pretty impressed with how well he had held on to his chops for that long. Woody on the other hand hasn't played anything that's moved me since '81
Right on all counts. Keith held it together in '97, but now that his wheels are coming off, they're both a danger to the road. |
| March 18th, 2005 06:29 PM |
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| Soldatti |
Keith reached his peak in 1997, he was incredible during that tour. He played on a minor level during '98-'99 but steady, but he didn't play so good during the Licks tour becasue (IMO) he didn't rehearse too much. Mick gave his soul, Ronnie did hard efforts during 2002, Charlie is always the same but Keith was on autopilot during all the tour. |
| March 18th, 2005 06:41 PM |
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| Poplar |
Ronnie nailed CYHMK every time I heard it. Hell, i thought it was stunning, and in Atlanta, it had the crowd near a frenzy.
As for Keith, I think he's hit & miss. Some are weak, but then there was the solo in Whip Comes Down .. that one was pretty damn strong.
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| March 18th, 2005 07:11 PM |
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| sammy davis jr. |
Ronnie- no solos
Keith- no solos, please!
maybe Mick can "hum" the solos's now, or play them with a kazoo. |
| March 18th, 2005 07:55 PM |
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| Taptrick |
I appreciated CYHMK on Licks but bot Ronnie and Keith have got to get some mud back in that sound. All the classic riffs often sound like high-end twang live. |
| March 18th, 2005 09:40 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
Keith and Ronnie's guitar tones have gone to shit. Which is inexcusabe -- and inexplicable -- given the resources (all manner of vintage guitars and amplifiers) at their disposal, and which haven't changed drastically from tour to tour. I just don't get it ... That, more so than the decline in chops, is just mystifying to me. |
| March 18th, 2005 10:21 PM |
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| stonedinaustralia |
good last post mel - i got FF out to have a look last night after reading the thread yesterday
to say that neither of them can p[ay anymore is of course absurd but this is what struck me about the solos (and i admit i only got as far as first half dozen numbers of the olympia):
ronnie can still pul of some nice flourishes but too often he never hits any emotional peak and when he does go for one too often his execution lets him down (see HOF WAY) either that or he purposely for the slightly discordant intonation he gets at times when you would expect more melodicism
at say they (keith and Ronnie) are adequate is perhaps damning with feint praise but none of their efforts were relly moving (JJF i will however go back and look at GS)- they merely put in the appropriate guitar noise when required
but as mel pointed out it's not always so much what they play but their sound - Ronniess thin "Strat" sound works on some numbers but on others you wonder why he wouldn't go for a thicker gutsier sound
aslo the almost subliminal influence of Chucks bland and emotionless keyboard stylings only serve to create a tepid wash for the finer detail that goes on top and no matter how sharp the detail is it its only dulled by the blandness of the keybord sound (and playing)
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| March 19th, 2005 07:51 PM |
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| gotdablouse |
Not sure about the solos, but I hope they get some help in the guitar department for the new album like they did for B2B with Waddy Wachtel playing most of the more memorable guitar parts (as in Saint of Me). |
| March 19th, 2005 08:06 PM |
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| kath |
i'm just glad to see ronnie playing more these last tours (especially licks) instead of unplugging and mugging and smoking like he did on b2b. that really PISSED me off....... |
| March 20th, 2005 12:34 PM |
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| Scottfree |
This is a difficult topic for me, seeing your band in total decline, and having to make excuses for them to new girlfeinds, or friends that aren't that familiar with their volume of music and live stylings from 69-89 (yes 89 was polished, but Keith sure as shit could play at that time). I guess a question that I would pose, what other band out there goes on the road and totally half asses it? What's with Ronnie barely playing for tours at a time? Isn't it exciting to him, doesn't he get bored just stading up there and posing? Isn't he tired of being panned for lack of skills? I just don't get the mentality....Keith, on the other hand is just dreadful at this point (I can't believe they would put a 4 DVD set out at this point in their career), I hope his former skills can be salvaged somehow, but I don't think his arthritic condition will get any better. |
| March 20th, 2005 02:00 PM |
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| Mel Belli |
quote:
kath wrote:
i'm just glad to see ronnie playing more these last tours (especially licks) instead of unplugging and mugging and smoking like he did on b2b. that really PISSED me off.......
See, I don't think he played much more on Licks, as compared to B2B and No Security. The mugging is still a problem, and evidently contagious: Keith does it now too. |
| March 20th, 2005 08:51 PM |
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| Soldatti |
quote:
sammy davis jr. wrote:
Ronnie- no solos
Keith- no solos, please!
maybe Mick can "hum" the solos's now, or play them with a kazoo.
Mick?
He can play solos, inc. slide guitar (see Don't Call Me Up) but if Mick will play solos for the Rolling Stones I don't know this band anymore. |
| March 21st, 2005 05:25 AM |
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| Gazza |
quote:
Zack wrote:
The fact is that for the past decade Keith has suffered from serious arthritis in the fingers - what cruel irony to a man for whom playing the guitar is his life - and this causes me to doubt seriously Keith's ability to play the Stones' catalog anymore. His knuckles are swollen to absurd proportions. His alcoholism doesn't help his chops much either.
100% correct. I'm no technical expert, but I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that the worsening of the arthritis in Keith's fingers (which is quite evident in any photos of his digits over the last few years) would naturally hinder his ability to do certain things on a guitar that he could do 10 or 20 years ago.
It's not going to get any better, either. |
| March 21st, 2005 10:59 AM |
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| egon |
did he ever talk about that in interviews? |
| March 21st, 2005 11:08 AM |
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| Pierre |
quote:
Mel Belli wrote:
Ronnie is still fairly competent on 12-bar blues like "Rock Me Baby," but on anything else, anything that requires a sense of melody, he's a hack. He bollixed up YCAGWYW nearly every time, and his attempts at CYHMK and "Worried about You" were painful.
Purely right |
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