ROCKS OFF - The Rolling Stones Message Board
Your mouth don't move but I can hear you speak!

"Shine A Light" New York premiere.
Ziegfeld Theater - NYC March 30, 2008
© purepeople.com with thanks to Jeep!
[ ROCKSOFF.ORG ] [ IORR NEWS ] [ SETLISTS 1962-2007 ] [ FORO EN ESPAÑOL ] [ BIT TORRENT TRACKER ] [ BIT TORRENT HELP ] [ BIRTHDAY'S LIST ] [ MICK JAGGER ] [ KEITHFUCIUS ] [ CHARLIE WATTS ] [ RONNIE WOOD ] [ BRIAN JONES ] [ MICK TAYLOR ] [ BILL WYMAN ] [ IAN "STU" STEWART ] [ NICKY HOPKINS ] [ MERRY CLAYTON ] [ IAN 'MAC' McLAGAN ] [ LINKS ] [ PHOTOS ] [ JIMI HENDRIX ] [ TEMPLE ] [ ADMIN ]
CHAT ROOM aka The Fun HOUSE Rest rooms last days
ROCKS OFF - The Rolling Stones Message Board
Register | Update Profile | F.A.Q. | Admin Control Panel

Topic: Obama's Church Return to archive Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18th March 2008 12:52 PM
Riffhard
quote:
pdog wrote:



Everyone in politics plays race. You don't think that add against Dukakis in 88 was a race card or when Bill Clinton pretends like he's black or even having someone point out, that Bush has the most racially diverse cabinet. My point is, is that it's normal to see the race, and it's normal to both like and dislike people of a race, based on race.
My contradicting feelings on this matter are what is shaping my views on this matter.
I'm not as abosolut on my views as you are. part of me is envious you are so sure of yourself, and part of me thinks anyone who is so confident, is going to be dissapointed, no matter what.



Pdog the thing is that Obama based his entire platform on "transcending race". Yet we see that he was actually playing the race card at every single turn. Again I can only point out that this goes directly to his own judgement and character. His wife stated flat out that for the first time she was proud of her country! Only when her black husband started to win primary after primary did she become proud?! Is it any wonder why she felt this way? Look at what she was being preached about every Sunday! Plus why did Obama win those primaries in the first place? Because he "transcended race". Only one problem. He didn't! He used race. In the process he lost all credibility.

Not to mention his dealings with William Ayers haven't even been exposed by the media. Nor his very shady dealings with Rezko. He's done because he wasn't forthright about who he is.


Riffy
18th March 2008 12:53 PM
Nasty Habits
quote:
Riffhard wrote:


While this may seem funny to you. It is quite logical really. If my candidate were doing what Obama has done I would abandon him immediately. Partisanship be damned. I would dump him in an instant. Judgement and character are of paramount importance for me. If I were to begin to question my candidate's judgement or character my support would be gone immediately. That's because I would put my partisanship aside. Get it?


I voted for Bill Clinton. His judgement and character were obviously flawed, and I became a registered Republican because of it. I abandoned any and all partisanship because of my beliefs. Too bad more people couldn't be intellectually honest enough to do the same. Am I better or wiser than they are? Yes I am.


Riffy



Dude, you're a dogmatist. Left or right, you are a dogmatist. I have never once seen you cross party lines or even listen to what the "other side" of an argument has to say. That's because you think you are "Better" than other people. Were you a dogmatist when you were a leftie? Did you hate the righties real real bad and believe in a united, hand holding, loving America? I dunno - I became acquainted w/you on the RO board, and by that time you were the leftard hating DLM cursing enlightened being you are today.

Is character an important issue for me? Yes. Is where someone goes to church? Well, Riff, I dunno - I have learned to ignore church one on all sides of the issue, except I will say that my sympathies do lie with black church because the music is so much goddamn better, so I am used to getting the form/emotion and feeling out of a sermon/song without sweating the content too much. To me, that's what church is for.

Does this situation make me take Obama's judgement into question? I was already there. Do I think the "experience" issue has relevance? Yeah. I think he's an idealist who often gets caught unprepared, and this kicked his ass when he should have been prepared for it.

But I also think he kicked back. He is a motherfucker orator. Do I think that speech was sincere? Either it was or he is a great actor, and I would argue that anyone who thought it was insincere or slimy was listening through partisan ears. Do I think it is sufficient damage control? Not my call. Forty minutes of thoughtfulness is a difficult way to combat 30 seconds of "GOD DAMN AMERICA". Am I voting for him? I dunno yet. I live in North Carolina. What I think doesn't mean shit for months. Lots of nonsense to get me in its sway until then. We shall see. You may be gobsmacked that I could still consider voting for a guy that went to that church but I was and am gobsmacked that you could have voted for Bush in '04, so here we are, gobsmacked together.

Is he now unelectable? Do I pretend to know who is and isn't toast? Sorry. Not a pundit. I will leave those predictions to them that's better than me. If something is repeated often enough, it must be true. So type it out a few more times.



[Edited by Nasty Habits]
18th March 2008 01:10 PM
Starbuck riffy...you know i love you, but you are putting on a clinic of insanity here....you write, organize your thoughts and debate well, but you are the king of partisanship on this board! flea was worse perhaps, but he is now as we speak sitting at the MB across the street shining SS's tambourine.

i think the biggest thing you are missing here is that race is not a two way street. things aren't equal. if a group of people have gone through what blacks have gone through in the history of this country, they should be given more room to vent and should receive less criticism for their comments than the other way around. hell, not even fifty years ago a black man couldn't even sit at the same counter as a white man....therefore if a black preacher from chicago gets all fired up in a sermon and says things to the effect that rich white men have ruled this country since day one, or that hillary has never been called the n word....(wait a minute...both of those comments are 100% accurate!)...

scratch that. if he makes comments like "god damn america" or whatever, it is his right to say so. i've never been a black man in america, so i can't say anything about their experience. if he wants to rant about it, so bet it. and if he says that the CIA deliberately injected the AIDS virus into africans to wipe out the black race, we can just sniggle....i mean, come on.....

quote:
I abandoned any and all partisanship because of my beliefs. Too bad more people couldn't be intellectually honest enough to do the same. Am I better or wiser than they are? Yes I am.


T2H indeed!
18th March 2008 01:12 PM
Factory Girl BO is on a cover of Rolling Stone now. He is posing sans his Pastor-Khan.
18th March 2008 01:12 PM
Riffhard Dogmatist? LOL! Not hardly. I just can't stand double standards regardless of who's laying them down. I can promise you that if Obama were my candidate four days ago he would not be today. Period. Be he Republican or Democrat. Liberal or Conservative. You can believe that or not. It matters not to me.

I have no problem at all with knocking Republicans when I disagree with them. I think that McCain is a very flawed candidate for example on many issues. I have made no secret about this either. I have slammed him repeatedly for these things. Of the three left though? I'll take my chances with the only one that does not preach Socialism. Anyone that can say with a straight face that Hillary or Obama are not promoting a socialist agenda is not listening to what they are saying. In Obama's case, he just got caught trying to fool people about who he really is. I'm glad to hear that you didn't fall for it. Neither did I and partisanship or dogma had shit to do with it.




Riffy
18th March 2008 01:21 PM
Riffhard
quote:
Starbuck wrote:
riffy...you know i love you, but you are putting on a clinic of insanity here....you write, organize your thoughts and debate well, but you are the king of partisanship on this board! flea was worse perhaps, but he is now as we speak sitting at the MB across the street shining SS's tambourine.

i think the biggest thing you are missing here is that race is not a two way street. things aren't equal. if a group of people have gone through what blacks have gone through in the history of this country, they should be given more room to vent and should receive less criticism for their comments than the other way around. hell, not even fifty years ago a black man couldn't even sit at the same counter as a white man....therefore if a black preacher from chicago gets all fired up in a sermon and says things to the effect that rich white men have ruled this country since day one, or that hillary has never been called the n word....(wait a minute...both of those comments are 100% accurate!)...

scratch that. if he makes comments like "god damn america" or whatever, it is his right to say so. i've never been a black man in america, so i can't say anything about their experience. if he wants to rant about it, so bet it. and if he says that the CIA deliberately injected the AIDS virus into africans to wipe out the black race, we can just sniggle....i mean, come on.....


T2H indeed!




Bucky what part of Barack's promise to "transcend" race are you not understanding here? The man promised that he was going to transcend the whole issue! Turns out he was either lying about that or living a double life with regards to a church that clearly has not transcended race! In fact that church uses race to slam not only whites, but America, and Jews. The preacher told blatant and obvious lies about America's past and we are just suppossed to ignore that because we don't know what it's like to be black in America?! No sir. Not me. This has zero to do with partisanship for me. That's the truth whether you choose to believe it or not.


Riffy
18th March 2008 01:21 PM
Dan Obama's speech was very hopenotizing. A small sampling of internet liberals seem to suggest they are eating it up. Our only hope to keep him out of the White House may be in the swing states.
18th March 2008 01:24 PM
PartyDoll MEG
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:


Dude, you're a dogmatist. Left or right, you are a dogmatist. I have never once seen you cross party lines or even listen to what the "other side" of an argument has to say. That's because you think you are "Better" than other people. Were you a dogmatist when you were a leftie? Did you hate the righties real real bad and believe in a united, hand holding, loving America? I dunno - I became acquainted w/you on the RO board, and by that time you were the leftard hating DLM cursing enlightened being you are today.

Is character an important issue for me? Yes. Is where someone goes to church? Well, Riff, I dunno - I have learned to ignore church one on all sides of the issue, except I will say that my sympathies do lie with black church because the music is so much goddamn better, so I am used to getting the form/emotion and feeling out of a sermon/song without sweating the content too much. To me, that's what church is for.

Does this situation make me take Obama's judgement into question? I was already there. Do I think the "experience" issue has relevance? Yeah. I think he's an idealist who often gets caught unprepared, and this kicked his ass when he should have been prepared for it.

But I also think he kicked back. He is a motherfucker orator. Do I think that speech was sincere? Either it was or he is a great actor, and I would argue that anyone who thought it was insincere or slimy was listening through partisan ears. Do I think it is sufficient damage control? Not my call. Forty minutes of thoughtfulness is a difficult way to combat 30 seconds of "GOD DAMN AMERICA". Am I voting for him? I dunno yet. I live in North Carolina. What I think doesn't mean shit for months. Lots of nonsense to get me in its sway until then. We shall see. You may be gobsmacked that I could still consider voting for a guy that went to that church but I was and am gobsmacked that you could have voted for Bush in '04, so here we are, gobsmacked together.

Is he now unelectable? Do I pretend to know who is and isn't toast? Sorry. Not a pundit. I will leave those predictions to them that's better than me. If something is repeated often enough, it must be true. So type it out a few more times.



[Edited by Nasty Habits]


Thanks for saving me some time, Nasty!!


I watched and listened to all of his speech (and notice the word used was speech!)
I believe he is sincere
He answered all of the unanswered questions in my mind
I believe he has the capacity to be a great leader


But unfortunately the vast majority of Americans can only listen to 20 second sound bites




18th March 2008 01:27 PM
Factory Girl
quote:
Nasty Habits wrote:


Of course. They believe in all sorts of mystical crap.



In these sensitive times, however, I must once again remind you that the term "sock puppet" is offensive to many HosierAmericans and if it continues that guy up there is likely to start screaming "GOD DARN AMERICA!"






"LORD SOCK AMERICA"!!! I know that the sock puppets don't preach putrid hate about other hosiery.
18th March 2008 01:28 PM
PartyDoll MEG Oh and by the way if any of you actually want to listen to his speech instead of continuing your endless tirade, it is here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/...toryId=88481254


Didn't I say I hated politics
18th March 2008 01:39 PM
Riffhard
quote:
Dan wrote:
Obama's speech was very hopenotizing. A small sampling of internet liberals seem to suggest they are eating it up. Our only hope to keep him out of the White House may be in the swing states.




It shows that certain people give not one ounce of attention to the fact that this man has conned them. He has a relationship with William Ayers a known domestic terrorist. Can we question him about that? How about Tony Rezko a man currently under indictment in federal court? Can we question that? Or do we just have to accept that he is a black man therefore he has experienced hardships that we can never know so he must be forgiven these indiscretions? Even though he, of course, promised to leave the racial stuff at the door. This is NOT about anything but his judgement!! What is so god damned hard to understand about this?! He showed piss poor judgement and one slick speech later people are ready to forget it all. Stunning!



Riffy
18th March 2008 01:50 PM
Rodney_King so nice to see you all fired up about something, riffy. now if you could please turn your attention away from bringing the black man down, it would be appreciated.
18th March 2008 01:56 PM
Riffhard
quote:
Rodney_King wrote:
so nice to see you all fired up about something, riffy. now if you could please turn your attention away from bringing the black man down, it would be appreciated.



LOL!


Riffy
18th March 2008 01:57 PM
CrissCrossMind Obama listened to ... and supported Black Power ... and racist ramblings for twenty years ... but as of today Obama wants to bring us all together ... sorry Party Doll ... I'm a die-hard Dem but I do buy it ... Obama's true beliefs about the US & whities in general has not changed one bit over the last 20 years ... I would respect him more if he stood up and spoke the "his" truth about what he really thinks about whities & jews ... the Pastor is at least "honest" ... which is more than can be said for Obama ... CCM
18th March 2008 02:04 PM
pdog Riffy,
Is it possible Obama is transcending, despite all the blacks who are filled with the anger from years of oppression?
I'm a motherfucker, a white motherfucker, a black hating motherfucker, a libertarian motherfucker, a Stones motherfucker...
Motherfuck me!

Is anyone actually of the belief that the rich white mans clubs don't exist? And that now that blacks have a bility to do the same, they can't? I got more respect for the preacher venting than the liars who act like this back room racist, classist shit doesn't exist. and it exists mostly in place where you find big money, old money and Republicans are in bed with that... That is why they are so worried about character, b/c this character threatens to create a new backroom, one filled with black people. And no one can call me partisan, or even a Democrat. come nov. I'm not voting for either Dem, and I know that for sure! I still know bullshit when I see it. I want to keep my right to have an opnion, especially an unopular one, or one that holds my character in question if people so choose to see that.
18th March 2008 02:06 PM
pdog
quote:
CrissCrossMind wrote:
Obama listened to ... and supported Black Power ... and racist ramblings for twenty years ... but as of today Obama wants to bring us all together ... sorry Party Doll ... I'm a die-hard Dem but I do buy it ... Obama's true beliefs about the US & whities in general has not changed one bit over the last 20 years ... I would respect him more if he stood up and spoke the "his" truth about what he really thinks about whities & jews ... the Pastor is at least "honest" ... which is more than can be said for Obama ... CCM




I would say I agree with Obama, about what you're saying he thinks about whites and jews, yet, I don't care if it is true for him or not. I hold those truths to be self evident. White people are fucked up!!!
18th March 2008 02:06 PM
Joey " It shows that certain people give not one ounce of attention to the fact that this man has conned them. He has a relationship with William Ayers a known domestic terrorist. Can we question him about that? How about Tony Rezko a man currently under indictment in federal court? Can we question that? Or do we just have to accept that he is a black man therefore he ..............."



I remain ..... forever ..... your Jacky !


|
|
V


...........JJJJJJJJJJJJJACKY ! ™
18th March 2008 02:11 PM
monkey_man Not to take away from this obama fest but look at what our alternative is saying. Christ, Grandpa can't even keep the names straight of the people he's hatin' on. Talk about an Uncle Ronnnie moment!

Man this country is fucked no matter who we end up with in Nov!


McCain Gaffe in Jordan

Accompanied by two of his top supporters in the race for president, U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, left, and U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, right, U.S. Sen. John McCain, center, talks to reporters during his visit to Amman, Jordan, March 18, 2008.(AP.)


By Cameron W. Barr and Michael D. Shear
AMMAN, Jordan -- Sen. John McCain, traveling in the Middle East to promote his foreign policy expertise, misidentified in remarks Tuesday which broad category of Iraqi extremists are allegedly receiving support from Iran.

He said several times that Iran, a predominately Shiite country, was supplying the mostly Sunni militant group, al-Qaeda. In fact, officials have said they believe Iran is helping Shiite extremists in Iraq.

Speaking to reporters in Amman, the Jordanian capital, McCain said he and two Senate colleagues traveling with him continue to be concerned about Iranian operatives "taking al-Qaeda into Iran, training them and sending them back."

Pressed to elaborate, McCain said it was "common knowledge and has been reported in the media that al-Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran, that's well known. And it's unfortunate." A few moments later, Sen. Joseph Lieberman, standing just behind McCain, stepped forward and whispered in the presidential candidate's ear. McCain then said: "I'm sorry, the Iranians are training extremists, not al-Qaeda."

The mistake threatened to undermine McCain's argument that his decades of foreign policy experience make him the natural choice to lead a country at war with terrorists. In recent days, McCain has repeatedly said his intimate knowledge of foreign policy make him the best equipped to answer a phone ringing in the White House late at night.

McCain was in Jordan leading a week-long Congressional delegation and has stressed that the trip was not political, despite the decision to hold a fundraiser in London later this week.

But advisers said a side-benefit from the trip would be the image of McCain standing next to world leaders and showing his expertise on issues of war and terrorism.

The U.S. has long asserted that elements of the Iranian security forces have been training and supplying weapons to Iraq's Shiite militias. Iran is an overwhelmingly Shiite country whose government has applauded the emergence of a Shiite-led government in Iraq but has denied supporting Shiite militias inside Iraq.

Al-Qaeda in Iraq is a predominantly Sunni militant group which is blamed for deadly mass killings of Shiites, along with attacks on U.S. forces. Some extremist Sunni consider Shiites to be heretics and therefore legitimate targets of attack.

The schism between Islam's Sunni and Shiite sects grew out of a dispute over the leadership of the faithful following the death of the Prophet Muhammad in 632 AD.


[Edited by monkey_man]
18th March 2008 02:14 PM
pdog For the record... I'm part of a back room too. One that is against yuppies and hipster fucktards!!!

We even got our own tee shirts!!!


Photobucket
18th March 2008 03:16 PM
Starbuck

I brake for Astral Travellers

[Edited by Starbuck]
18th March 2008 03:23 PM
Nasty Habits
quote:
Factory Girl wrote:


"LORD SOCK AMERICA"!!! I know that the sock puppets don't preach putrid hate about other hosiery.



Until you've had the experience of a Sockosimian American you can't possibly understand how marginalized, segregated, ignored, and mocked they've been. They may not bring it up in the cribs of human babies or in polite sewing circles. But get a group of them together alone, in the laundramats, on the clotheslines, or in the churches, and sometimes those resentments come out.

There are those that try to transcend the puppet/monkey divide - even though the wounds go deep.

Others turn to soporifics.

18th March 2008 03:28 PM
Nasty Habits
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
I'm glad to hear that you didn't fall for it. Neither did I and partisanship or dogma had shit to do with it.


Riffy



Oh, I may fall for it yet. This is a complicated issue - you can see it in shades of black and white, but I prefer to see it in shades mulatto.

And I am always a sucker for a good Faulkner quote.

18th March 2008 05:13 PM
CrissCrossMind "see it in shades mulatto." ... I found it interesting the Pastor was family to Obama ... yet he painted his Grandmother (the white one) out to be a Racist that said things that made him cringe ... please note he did not say that about the Pastor ... and all his public "hate" sermons ... "well if you can't take a joke ... then fuck it" I guess ... CCM

18th March 2008 05:28 PM
glencar Starbuck, is this - "but [Fleabit] is now as we speak sitting at the MB across the street shining SS's tambourine" - slang for blow jobs?
18th March 2008 05:31 PM
glencar
quote:
CrissCrossMind wrote:
"see it in shades mulatto." ... I found it interesting the Pastor was family to Obama ... yet he painted his Grandmother (the white one) out to be a Racist that said things that made him cringe ... please note he did not say that about the Pastor ... and all his public "hate" sermons ... "well if you can't take a joke ... then fuck it" I guess ... CCM



Yeah, that struck me too. Granny's a racist but the good reverend isn't? I never saw Granny O'bama rant but I was at the doctor's office today & I caught some of the good reverend's rant on CNN & I was shocked. Yes, his speech was pretty & all but in the end, a racist is still a racist & he needed to be disowned. I gave O'bama the benefit of the doubt as to whether he actually heard this moron's rants when he was an active minister but he now knows what was ranted & I need to hear an unequivocal denouncement of Rev. Shitbag. Are all black churches like this?
18th March 2008 05:59 PM
Jumping Jack Very articulate as many lawyers are, he can talk the talk, but doesn't walk the walk, and his judgement has been proven completely lacking.

If he couldn't see the risk the good pastor presented to his campaign, he won't be able to see the risk posed by enemies of the US. He has been nuked and the game is over. Thankfully it was only his campaign that was naively gambled and not the lives and security of 300,000,000 citizens. POTUS is no place for utopian dreamers. We need a realist with a track record of administrative excellence and bipartisan accomplishment.
18th March 2008 06:01 PM
glencar BTW I notice several odd posts about "partisanship" & how some are & some aren't. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
18th March 2008 06:02 PM
glencar O'Bama DID indeed hear some "controversial" stuff in church, contradicting his statements from last week. Fuck this bastard, I'm giving to Cankles now. I MUST get tix to Elton's big show.
18th March 2008 06:06 PM
Nasty Habits
quote:
CrissCrossMind wrote:
"see it in shades mulatto." ... I found it interesting the Pastor was family to Obama ... yet he painted his Grandmother (the white one) out to be a Racist that said things that made him cringe ... please note he did not say that about the Pastor ... and all his public "hate" sermons ... "well if you can't take a joke ... then fuck it" I guess ... CCM





quote:
Telecaster wrote:

Yeah, that struck me too. Granny's a racist but the good reverend isn't? I never saw Granny O'bama rant but I was at the doctor's office today & I caught some of the good reverend's rant on CNN & I was shocked. Yes, his speech was pretty & all but in the end, a racist is still a racist & he needed to be disowned. I gave O'bama the benefit of the doubt as to whether he actually heard this moron's rants when he was an active minister but he now knows what was ranted & I need to hear an unequivocal denouncement of Rev. Shitbag. Are all black churches like this?





Wow, you guys, that's not the way I heard at all. As I remember it it went "I could no more disown [Wright] than I could disown my white grandma."

He wasn't painting her as a racist - he was saying she, like Wright, was known to make racist comments, like, like Pdog says, everyone is. I doubt he was even one to one comparisons. Sounded like a relevant life example to me.

I know where he's coming from. On his lymphoma riddled death bed in the middle of last year, during the last conversation I ever had with the man, my Grandpa gave me a little good-natured shit, asking after my "black buddies" and if I was still selling that "nigger music".

It had been part of a conversation that had been going on for 20+ years - he thought it was so funny and weird that I spent so much time digging around for black music and being involved in black culture. He was an Iowa farmer and was one of the most purely good, sweet and loving people I ever met. But there are plenty of people I work with who wouldn't have cut him any slack for his comments and seen nothing but a straight-up ignorant Iowa cracker racist asshole.

I never once denounced him for his comments, though, because I knew that a) his capacity for good was infinitely greater than his capacity for genuine damage and b) because on some level I knew he thought it was pretty cool that one of his grandkids was this weirdo bohemian record selling radical, even though I'm no radical at ALL.

I could have called him on it right there on his death bed, but instead I just said, "Yeah, Pa, I am." And he said, "Good." Then we talked about other stuff.

Anyway, whatever, irrelevant, I suppose, but I think that it's pretty ridiculous to say Obama was painting his grandmother as a racist while saying Wright wasn't. What he was saying was more subtle than that.



[Edited by Nasty Habits]
18th March 2008 06:10 PM
glencar I think your partisanship is coloring your view of his speech. Believe me, I VASTLY prefer this idiot over HRC. I'll support McCain over either of them but since this is probably a Dem year, I'd rather see him in the WH instead of those 2 scumbags. But this episode does show a certain lack of sense on O'Bama's part.
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Search for information in the wet page, the archives and this board:

PicoSearch

NEW: SEARCH ZONE:
Search for goods, you'll find the impossible collector's item!!!
Enter artist an start searching using "Power Search" (RECOMMENDED)