|
|
| nankerphelge |
"And please bear in mind that to criticize this or that policy of the American govt, past or present, is not necessarily a hateful statement against the whole the American people. If you choose to take it as one, too bad for you, but it's your choice, not mine."
Well first off, if someone supports their government's policies, then a criticism of those policies IS, by definition, a criticism of those that support them. I don't see how you can separate criticism of the policy from those who subscribe to that policy.
Despite that, it doesn't bother me so much when someone says "I think the US was wrong to invade Iraq" -- that is a valid criticism and people can debate the issue all they want.
But when someone says we Americans are a bunch of morons that are sitting around, blindly following our leader and have no idea what we are doing -- that is more than simply criticism of my government's policies. For those that support the Administration's policies, we understand full well what going to war means (including the death of innocents) -- but we support it anyway because we feel that it is/was the right thing to do. And second, there are plenty of people in this country that do not support the Administration -- they have every right to feel insulted for an entirely different reason!
We are certainly not a perfect country and we have our share of double-standards. But we don't make "jihad" and the death of innocents our country's policy. For someone to suggest that we are no better than Al Q is about as insulting as it gets. Do I take that personally -- fucking right I do!! |
|
|
| jb |
Least we forget about the "Spanish Inquisition". The U.S. has a history of liberating people as opposed to what many other coutries have done historically. |
|
|
| Zeeta |
quote:
jb wrote:
Does she still look like a female Keith?
Yeah I suppose! But with a tashe and longer, greyer hair!
Albeit if Keith were not to dye his then he would probs be a bit greyer than Patty!! |
|
|
| jb |
quote:
Zeeta wrote:
Yeah I suppose! But with a tashe and longer, greyer hair!
Albeit if Keith were not to dye his then he would probs be a bit greyer than Patty!!
My hair is pretty grey now as well...I use my wife's mascara liner on my goatee... |
|
|
| Joey |
" My hair is pretty grey now as well...I use my wife's mascara liner on my goatee... "
My Fried Egg makes me sick first thing in the morning .......................and you ?!?!
|
|
|
| glencar |
It's funny how people think democracy is great for "us" but when we try to spread a lil bit o' democracy to the Iraqis, suddenly the venom shows.
And caro, not all the victims of 9-11 were American either. It doesn't lessen the appalling nature of the act one bit. |
|
|
| jb |
We as Americans have tried to spread the shining light of democracy to those who live in oppression. Sadly, many countries, like battered wives, keep returning to their victimizer. |
|
|
| glencar |
Why is that, Joshy? |
|
|
| jb |
I just think that when you have been oppressed so long, it becomes a way of life...you fear any change, be it good or bad. |
|
|
| glencar |
Actually, you're correct. Look at what the Russians have gone through. They still can't act democratically although some of their former satellites are coming around. |
|
|
| jb |
quote:
glencar wrote:
Actually, you're correct. Look at what the Russians have gone through. They still can't act democratically although some of their former satellites are coming around.
 |
|
|
| telecaster |
War. What is it good for?
Besides getting rid of Napolean, stopping Hitler, destroying German aggression in WWI, stopping N. Korea, liberating Iraq, ending slavery in the US, and freeing hundreds of millions of peoples from oppression probably not much
|
|
|
| Monkey Woman |
Round and round and round it goes.
I doubt anything we say here is going to change the others's opinions, if the debate on the level of "war is good" or "war is bad". (Just a word for Nanky: when you say you accept criticism and then at once add that you take it as a personnal, hateful attack, it's the same thing as saying you don't accept criticism.)
Well, I've already stated my points in previous posts, so I'm not going to repeat them again. Caro and Gazza have said very important things on the subject of the American and European policies towards terrorism too. And I really don't think we have unfairly attacked the American people.
Back to the Stones right now. |
|
|
| telecaster |
Appeasment NEVER works folks. Even France can't get a pass:
Muslim group threatens France
Group plans to inflict 'terror into the heart of the French people'
Wednesday, March 17, 2004 Posted: 12:50 AM EST (0550 GMT)
Rail security officers patrol a train station in Paris.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PARIS, France (CNN) -- French police have opened an investigation after a Paris newspaper received a letter from a Muslim group threatening spectacular attacks that would make "blood run to (its) borders."
The letter, from a previously unknown group calling itself the "Servants of Allah the Mighty and the Wise," said it planned to take action after Muslim girls were banned from wearing headscarves in schools.
The bill was passed last month by the National Assembly.
"You have let loose on yourself a river of hate and ignorance, not only toward Muslims but toward Islam itself," the letter, addressed to Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin said.
"We will plunge France into terror and remorse, and we will make blood run to your borders."
Describing France as a country of "wine, pigs, loose morals and nudity," the group said it planned to use attack techniques imported from Gaza and Chechnya that "have never been used in the West until now."
The letter, postmarked from Paris and sent to the chief editor of "Le Parisien," urged Muslims to stay out of crowded areas.
"Europe is a new war zone for the Jihad," it says. "Know that our fight has only just begun."
'Not be secure'
|
|
|
| jb |
Those who will kill, must be killed first. The Israelis have learned this is the way to deal with terrorists and after 9/11 America also realized that terrorists must be killed before they kill us. When god forbid a major Capital is hit by a "dirty bomb", 9/11 will look like child's play...then my dear European friends, what will you say, what will you say?
[Edited by jb] |
|
|
| Joey |
STONES IS STONES !!!!!!!!!!
..............Bigger than All of Us ! |
|
|
| jb |
quote:
Joey wrote:
STONES IS STONES !!!!!!!!!!
..............Bigger than All of Us !
|
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
"Appeasment NEVER works folks. Even France can't get a pass:
Muslim group threatens France
Group plans to inflict 'terror into the heart of the French people'
Wednesday, March 17, 2004 Posted: 12:50 AM EST (0550 GMT)"
Ahh don't you know, the French will fold like a chinaman in a Shanghai laundromat
|
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
"We are certainly not a perfect country and we have our share of double-standards. But we don't make "jihad" and the death of innocents our country's policy. For someone to suggest that we are no better than Al Q is about as insulting as it gets. Do I take that personally -- fucking right I do!!"
Oh Nanky...Fiji wanna have yo baby
|
|
|
| Joey |
Fiji ....................................................
Playboy Magazine claims that our K.C. Royals will finish second in their division this season .................WTF ?!?!
Why ?!?! WHY ?!?!
WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?! WHY ?!?!
Jercee !
|
|
|
| jb |
We are the leaders of the free world..we have saved Europe over and over again despite their disdain for us....we are a god fearing, flag waving, patriotic nation who invented the frozen meal...that alone warrants respect. |
|
|
| Joey |
" flag waving, patriotic nation who invented the frozen meal...that alone warrants respect. "
Ain't you the guy who used to set the paces ?
Riding up in front of a hundred faces;
I don't suppose you would remember me?
But I used to follow you back in '63.
|
|
|
| jb |
Passover is just around the corner my friend. Better start shopping in the Publix "Jewish" section.
By the way Joey, watching the news the other night, Nebraska got hit hard with a snowstorm....how did you make out? |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
"Playboy Magazine claims that our K.C. Royals will finish second in their division this season .................WTF ?!?!"
Blahh...when did those cats get into the prognositication business?...Fiji can't wait for opening day
|
|
|
| Joey |
" By the way Joey, watching the news the other night, Nebraska got hit hard with a snowstorm....how did you make out? "
Excellent my Goysky !!!!!
The pavement was too warm so the snow melted on contact . Still got six inches on the " Grassy Knolls " though ..................
W- W- W- W- What ?!?!?! Oh , sure :
The beach is a place where a man can feel
He's the only soul in the world that's real;
Well I see a face coming through the haze,
I remember him from those crazy days.
Crazy Days ................................
Crazy Days .................................
Jacky Moon !
|
|
|
| jb |
First They Came for the Jews
-----------------------------
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niem�ller
[Edited by jb] |
|
|
| Joey |
People often change
But when I look in your eyes,
You could learn a lot from
A job like mine.
The secret to me
Isn't flown like a flag
I carry it behind
This little badge
What says...
Bell Boy!
|
|
|
| nankerphelge |
"Just a word for Nanky: when you say you accept criticism and then at once add that you take it as a personnal, hateful attack, it's the same thing as saying you don't accept criticism."
That is a complete mischaracterization of what I said.
I said that I could accept someone saying that the war in Iraq was not just. That, to me, is a fair criticism -- something that could be debated without resorting to personal slurs against an entire people.
But I find it personally offensive when someone characterizes my country as no better than Al Q, or the US as a nation of people that blindly follow their leader without a thought in their collective heads of why they are at war. That, to me, is a cop out -- no better than characterizing all Europeans as cowards or all Jews as a bunch of people that killed the son of God just like Mel Gibson says!! (That's an attempt at levity and to jerk Josh's chain)
I don't want to beat a dead horse.
I am an American white male lawyer of Anglo-Saxon decent and Christian upbringing.
I AM USED TO TAKING THE HEAT FOR EVERYTHING WRONG IN THE WORLD!! |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
Damnit Nanky!...you gonna let me have your baby or not? |
|
|
| caro |
One more post and then I�m leaving this thread too...
Nanky, indeed I should have talked about the reactions of other state�s leaders to Bush�s policy. I agree there�s been several improvements. But I don�t think their positive attitude will last. IMO, this is a sheer panic reaction. After all, there was a time when Saddam himself had allowed UN inspectors to visit his country.
Regarding the future of Iraq : look at Afghanistan now. Afghanistan has become the world�s first producer of heroin again. The money from the traffic is being used by warlords and talibans to pay their troops (ironically, they reportedly pay their soldiers better than the US forces pay the locals who help them). At the end of last year (not sure how it�s now), the international forces whose mission is to search for terrorists were twice as numerous as the ISAF force (whose mission is to support the government). And those two forces work against each other because the �terrorist-searchers� encourage warlords who fight (or pretend to fight) against talibans. This, in return, destabilizes the central government. Since the beginning of the war in Afghanistan, the warlords have been rearmed and provided with money, and they now use their newfound power to split the country again. I do understand that it was a natural thing to do to encourage people who could resist the taliban �from inside�. I�m not saying the international community made a mistade there. What I�m saying is that it�s a vicious circle : if you only use violence to fight terrorists, then sooner or later, the violence will grow again.
>As for the war in Iraq -- for all of its problems it has certainly made a number of other dangerous regimes sit up and take notice!
This is what I violently disagree with. It certainly scared some people, including some criminal governments. But Bush and Blair started a war saying Iraq posed an imminent threat to the world. Then they changed their version to �oh, well, we delivered them from a dictator anyway�. And now you say : �at least we showed them (whoever �them� means) we meant business�. In my book, this is playing with other people�s lives. If you have a good reason to go to war, then you should state it clearly and completely. But you don�t invade a country first and then look if maybe anything good will come out of it. I already stated what I think of Bush�s and Blair�s claims regarding WMD�S.
Now, since some people wanted to hear a euro opinion about what should concretely be done, this is my humble opinion:
Terrorists should be chased whatever country they are in. Therefore, we should first develop cooperation between all countries, not only the rich ones. The UN could be a great tool for this. The first thing to do, IMO, is to make the UN more representative of the world�s population. How come India, with its 1 billion people, isn�t a permanent member of the security council? Of course, this would mean decisions would have to be negotiated between even more different parties. But an election system could be figured out. If the UN became a more important part of political life, cooperation between intelligence services would work much better.
Then, although nothing can justify a terrorist act, there are nevertheless reasons why organizations like Al Qaeda always find new members. It�s not a coincidence if there seems to be more and more a battle between the �western� (rich) states and the poorer states, (or, more exactly, states in which there�s a large amount of poor people). I don�t think the world can be a peaceful place as long as one person�s work is worth so much less in the third world than in Europe or the US. There should be a global agreement about everything that makes this double standard exist : custom laws and agreements, political pressure upon poor countries, and one thing particularly important to me : agricultural techniques. The intensive cultures do not only destroy the environment, they also make the prices for food drop artificially, which makes it hard for other peasants to survive without subsidies. I know I�m reaching out a little far here, but why shouldn�t I ? Terrorism is a global issue, we have to find global answers.
Far too long post, I know.
|
|
CHAT
ROOM aka THE FUN HOUSE] [
RESTROOMS]
