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| Gazza |
>Asian anti-semitism is frightening....yes, Gazza, you are lucky not to be a Jew like me and having to face the hatred of billions of people everyday simply b/c I am a Jew.
no,Josh I think you'll find its actually because youre a lawyer
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| Joey |
" no,Josh I think you'll find its actually because youre a lawyer "
{ CA - RACK }
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| glencar |
LOLOL |
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| glencar |
Joshy should host Gaza, the non-typo one... |
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| Gazza |
Happy St Patricks Day you bastard!!!  |
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| Scot Rocks |
I cannot believe some of the shite im reading here, what about the fact that America and the rest of the west has been responsible for countless involvement in terrorism. For example, if you want to look at the convential image of terrorists of planting bombs, what about training the Contras in terrorist training camps in America to go and kill innocent civilians in bombings in Latin America to try and overthrow the government. Moreover what I also call terroism took place in Chile, by overthrowing a democratically elected government and putting a dictatorship which would terrorize people for decades. Supporting the evil government of El Salvador and its massacres of its own people. A few examples and Gazza has talked about others and that is all terrorism in my book. So none of this we are whiter than white and everyone else are evil shit!!
There is no war on terror, it is a war for economic and corporate benifit and it is the normal citizens that are suffering, in Spain, Iraq, Afghanistan, USA, Morocco, Bali etc. Noe we get built into a frenzy like mode, where everyday we talk about war and killing others, look who stands to gain from this.
btw jb your comments sicken me, very sad to hear remarks like that.
Mark
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| Jumacfly |
quote:
btw jb your comments sicken me, very sad to hear remarks like that.
Mark
*******************************************************
Toilets are closed, i m still inside...my transit thanks you JB...
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| Sway |
I think Spain just made a horrible mistake. Now these terrorists think (know?) they can influence elections. They hate democracy. Spain could have sent a message. Actually, they did. But the wrong one. |
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| Monkey Woman |
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, Sway. There are some very good reasons (read my posts and Asdeguia's above) to think that it will not reinforce the terrorists as much as the European cooperation against terrorism. And that anyway, Al-Qaeda don't truly care about the Spanish involvement in Iraq, it's just a pretext. |
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| Ben Gurion |
quote:
Sway wrote:
I think Spain just made a horrible mistake. Now these terrorists think (know?) they can influence elections. They hate democracy. Spain could have sent a message. Actually, they did. But the wrong one.
Hate to say it...but you're right......
it ain't no simplistic politics....
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| Ten Thousand Motels |
Spain made a horribe mistake????
Why? I think if the US wants to hunt down "terrorists", they ought to start searching a little closer to home. I think it was George Washington who "suggested" that they stay home instead of trying to run the world.
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| caro |
You people should think about what exactly you want a country to stand for. Democracy? Fine. "Democracy", as far as I know, doesn't mean "we'll kill all terrorists". It means the majority of the people decides what has to be done. As a consequence, people need to be informed accurately of what's going on, which dangers exist, etc. so they can choose what to do. If the government constantly lies to the people, then the government itself shatters the democracy.
There was a good article in 'Lib�ration', a french paper, yesterday. It said Aznar regarding march 11., just like Blair and Bush regarding WMD's, followed this principle : "what is believed is more important than what is true" (Talleyrand). The journalist commented : "This means those politicians ignore that the most powerful weapon in a democracy is the faith the people have in the government. In a time where terrorists are leading a war against democracies, state lies are irresponsible. For they are the worst weapons of mass destruction : they destroy credibility."
Now, Fiji, I don't give a sh*t what terrorists, in their twisted minds, will conclude from those elections. The only thing I'm interested in is how the spanish people think the war against terrorism should be led. As MW stated, more cooperation amongst europeans is one way to lead this fight. And if the Spanyards think Zapatero will be a better leader than Aznar, that's fine by me. I would be very concerned if a country decided they should keep a leader they don't trust, only because the people are concerned about what terrorists will think.
Sorry for stating the obvious in the beginning of this post, but it seems to me like some people here are completely blinded by the excitement of being "in war".
[Edited by caro] |
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| Monkey Woman |
quote:
I would be very concerned if a country decided they should keep a leader they don't trust, only because the people are concerned about what terrorists will think.
Very good point. Well, let's wish courage to the Spanish and to Zapatero, they'll need it in days and months to come. And in Europe and the rest of the world, we must be alert to all menaces, keep our heads cool and stand firm for democracy.
And raise a glass of Guiness (or Killian!) to the salt of the earth!  |
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| Fiji Joe |
"Now, Fiji, I don't give a sh*t what terrorists, in their twisted minds, will conclude from those elections. The only thing I'm interested in is how the spanish people think the war against terrorism should be led. As MW stated, more cooperation amongst europeans is one way to lead this fight. And if the Spanyards think Zapatero will be a better leader than Aznar, that's fine by me."
Sounds good...except, I saw numerous Spainards on BBC yesterday stating that's exactly why they voted the way they did...to distance themselves from being seen as cooperating with America to avoid inciting the hatred of islamic terrorists...the dudes just killed two hundred spainards...all for backing an old ally...those motherfuckers are not going to waste thier time at the bargaining table |
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| FotiniD |
quote:
Scot Rocks wrote:
I cannot believe some of the shite im reading here, what about the fact that America and the rest of the west has been responsible for countless involvement in terrorism.
....
There is no war on terror, it is a war for economic and corporate benifit and it is the normal citizens that are suffering, in Spain, Iraq, Afghanistan, USA, Morocco, Bali etc.
I couldn't agree more Mark. Al Qaeda bombing the twin towers and killing innnocents = terrorism. American troops bombing civilian buses and cities and killing innocents = a sacrifice for world peace. Did these pictures EVER reach American TV screens? Did you see people's arms and legs flying all over the place, children with missing heads? Of course not, it wouldn't be politically correct and it would hurt the innocence of the viewers - try making them see the truth. This is so absurd, I cannot believe people would buy it. Making wars for peace. Get real people. Life has the same value, either you're American, European or of any other origin. And terrorist acts are the same, whether they are of Arab or American origin.
I also agree with Ju saying that the genocide comments just sicken me beyond belief. And again we play with words, jb saying "oh no, it's not genocide, I only want to kill the bad bad guys". Jesus, what world do you live in jb? Is there pure good and pure bad in this world? Or is the solution of all problems to kill?
I say we stick to discussing the Stones. There's no point discussing politics with such fanatism and blind faith in whatever any government says. |
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| glencar |
So much misinformation in Europe these days! Aznar's party led in the polls until the horrible bombings. "The people" made up their minds & then changed them in response to a cowardly act. Shameful.
As for the idiocy that America committed terrorism, it's a matter of semantics. Helping to overthrow the Chilean regime was bad but it's not the same as sending airplanes into buildings. And the contras were homegrown in C. America. The Communists were trying to take over Central America & something had to be done. The scourge of Communism is gone for the most part, Manhattan's Upper West Side excluded.. |
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| glencar |
Oh, and Happy St. Paddy's Day backatcha! |
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| caro |
quote:
Fiji Joe wrote:
Sounds good...except, I saw numerous Spainards on BBC yesterday stating that's exactly why they voted the way they did...to distance themselves from being seen as cooperating with America to avoid inciting the hatred of islamic terrorists...
Well I guess if you've seen 10 guys saying it on TV, I can't argue against that... oh wait, I can! First, although I don't doubt the BBC's neutrality, I know it's always easier for a TV journalist to show a feeling (in this case, fear) rather than an articulate political opinion.
Second, I for one have heard several Spaniards (including people I know personnally) state the result of these elections is due to Aznar's constant lies. Since I'm still amazed at the amount of manipulations involved in the discussions around Iraq, I'm more inclined to believe this version. Since you think all europeans are cowards, you're more inclined to believe the other version. But this doesn't bring us any further, does it?
Since I don't live in Spain, all I know is this :
-As I stated before, 91% of all spanish people were against the war in Iraq in the first place. They've had plenty of time before and during the war to hear the PSOE's plans and principles about the fight against terrorism. So it's not like they're throwing themselves into the arms of the next best guy who promises to get them out of Iraq.
-Spain has known terrorism for years. ETA has killed more than 800 people since 1968. Defeating ETA was one of Aznar's main goals. The Spaniards may have been in a state of shock while voting, but that doesn't mean they didn't know what they were doing.
-I don't know the situation is in Spain, but I know quite well how things are perceived in France and Germany. In both countries, I don't know a single person who thinks we are safe from terrorism because our countries didn't take part in the war. Terrorists basically want to create fear and panic, which works best when they strike in unexpected places. In case anyone doubted this, the attacks in Iraq against the UN and the Red Cross made it clear. Do you really think most spanish people don't know that?
-It's been 2 years and a half now since 09/11 and since the war on terrorism has become the main issue in international politics. Maybe it's time now to make an assessment as to how effective it has been. Ben Laden still hasn't been caught. Saddam Hussein has been caught, but he wasn't behind the 09/11 attacks, and it looks like he didn't have any WMD's either. Bush declared the main military action over more than 9 months ago. Iraq has since become a paradise for terrorists, hence the daily casualties, both among Iraqis and American soldiers. There's been attacks in Bali, Turkey, Morocco, Spain, etc. You have the right to believe this is a transitory situation, and the world will become a safe place soon. Others have the right to believe it will only get worse if the US keeps acting the way they do now. But one should make an assessment of the situation evry few months, and possibly change one's policy. Elections are a good time for that.
All this doesn't change what I said about the message those elections are sending to the terrorists. These people are mad, and it's completely useless to try and figure out what they will conclude from what happened in Spain. As MW already stated (sorry for repeating everything you say, MW!), the political situation in Europe is not their main interest anyway.
Have just seen glencar's post...
>Helping to overthrow the Chilean regime was bad but it's not the same as sending airplanes into buildings.
Well of course! After all, those deaths were not american!
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| LadyJane |
I really have nothing to add politically. It just makes me very, very sad to see the apparent hatred of the American people and our government. 
I think I'll put on my American flag pin as well as my Shamrock!!
LJ. |
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| caro |
LJ, I hope you didn't say that because of me! As I said in an earlier thread, I have nothing against Americans, altough I'm very concerned about your current government. I don't think I said anything here that could be seen as antiamerican.
On the other hand, if you read the thread again, you will see an amazing amount of hatred against europeans.
Anyway, I hope you didn't misunderstand me! |
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| LadyJane |
No caro..nothing personal. I really should amend what I said. It makes me sad to see how divided we all are. You are right..there is just as many anti-Euro statements as anti-American.
And to think this thread started out as a show of support for the Spanish victims!
Somewhere..that freak Bin Laden is laughing at all of us!
LJ. |
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| caro |
>And to think this thread started out as a show of support for the Spanish victims!
Yup, that's sad indeed. But it's still better to discuss rather than having everyone stand on their corner with their own opinion...I may be quite angry at some of the things that have been said, but I still find it interesting to discuss politics. Although I may seem like I'll never change my mind, I DID learn a few things from this thread. So that's fine by me. |
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| nankerphelge |
Actually, the war on terror -- or at least the war on Al Q is going pretty well. Thanks to some really fine intelligence sharing between many countries, a lot of the top people in Al Q have been captured or killed. And the ones that have been captured have given us a lot of good information that has been used to capture more or at least thwart a number of attacks. Yeah bin Laden has not been caught -- and it sure will be nice when we do get him -- but when you look at how well we have all disrupted Al Q, it is pretty good considering how difficult it is to find them all!
Plus, take a look at countries like Yemen, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia -- in the pre 9/11 days, those countries harbored and supported a lot of the radical Islamists -- since 9/11, both countries have recognized that they need to reevaluate that stance. Just yesterday, the Saudis killed the top Al Q guy in the Arabian peninsula! Changing that attitude is a huge step in the right direction and it came about in good measure based on the pressure from the US and its allies!
As for the war in Iraq -- for all of its problems it has certainly made a number of other dangerous regimes sit up and take notice! Iran has let UN atomic inspectors in, North Korea has come to the bargaining table about its nuclear program, and Libya disarmed. All three of those nations have been actively involved in programs for the production and proliferation of some high end technology. The Libyans also gave us access to information on the nuclear black market -- a huge intel coup!! Now Syria is on notice! If nothing else, the war in Iraq let them all know that we mean business.
It only makes sense that when the US takes an aggressive approach to the problem of terrorism, the terrorists are not gonna like it and strike back. And while they may be small in number, it is an organization that understands how to apply pressure politically -- like in Spain.
But if anyone thinks that sitting on your hands and trying not to "stir up" Al Q will ultimately benefit anyone is a pretty naive view of what these people are all about. The idea that you can negotiate your way out of this is just wrong -- Al Q does not want to negotiate anything. They hate the west and want it gone. They may not get you now -- but make no mistake about it, they will not go away -- and they'll get ya someday!
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| Zeeta |
Weird how some posters only ever come out of their holes to post in vitriolic anti fuckin whatever threads, which this has turned into! |
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| Monkey Woman |
Care to name names, Zeeta? 
And I agree with LJ and caro that giving in to hate, wether of the European or the American, depending on our origin, is the worst thing we could do. Before brandishing accusations of "cowardice" or "imperialism", we should try to live in the other man's boots for 5 mins. And not parrot the lies used by politicians to paint their adversaries black... Not every American citizen is a little fire-eating George Bush Jr. and not every European is a lazy head-in-the-sand ostrich!
P.S. Nanky, you don't tell me anything new. Of course, Europeans here know that none of us is safe. Just yesterday, a letter of threats against France was published by another Al-Qaeda related group, and it seems very serious. So much for any "message" related to Iraq in these madmen's sinister logic.
And please bear in mind that to criticize this or that policy of the American govt, past or present, is not necessarily a hateful statement against the whole the American people. If you choose to take it as one, too bad for you, but it's your choice, not mine.
[Edited by Monkey Woman] |
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| L&A |
quote:
LadyJane wrote:
... and to think this thread started out as a show of support for the Spanish victims!
Somewhere..that freak Bin Laden is laughing at all of us!
Good point, LJ. |
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| Fiji Joe |
I will make my irrefutable statement just one more time...Far more people have been killed in the past 100 years because of inaction and peace for peace's sake than the notion of war itself...Dumbass statements like "war is not the answer" always amuse me...One has to wonder how far along Europe would be had they not been so passive and delayed in dealing with the fascists of the 20th century...how many lives could have been saved?...lives lost early on to spare the horror that would follow...You know, it wasn't like Hitler didn't state exactly what his intentions were...the elimination of the jews, lebensraum in the east and west...the motherfucker wrote it down in a book for Christ's sake!...and still, the world sat by - saying things like "war is not the answer" and "it does not concern us"
So, when you have people espousing as their goal, the eradication of western civilization, and still there are some who cannot see the value and necessity in meeting those people head on...you have to wonder...are they dense?
If anyone here thinks the invasion of Iraq was about WMDs they're full of shit...people need to think long and hard about the importance of Iraq and the reasons for being there...I really hate just giving people the answer...it means so much more when they figure it out themselves
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| Joey |
" People need to think long and hard about the importance of Iraq and the reasons for being there...I really hate just giving people the answer...it means so much more when they figure it out themselves "
It's a " Texas Thing !!! " . Saddam tried to kill the guy's Daddy .
On a lighter note , Yesterday's case of slight food poisoning is now over and I am shitting solids again .
...............In case you were all concerned .
Word !
" Stones Rule You Bastards ! "
Jersee !
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| Zeeta |
On an even lighter note!
I just literally bumped into Patty Smith in Covent Garden!
At first I thought it was Bob Dylan!!! [Patty's 'tashe is much worse in real life!!!!!!!!!!!!!] |
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| jb |
quote:
Zeeta wrote:
On an even lighter note!
I just literally bumped into Patty Smith in Covent Garden!
At first I thought it was Bob Dylan!!! [Patty's 'tashe is much worse in real life!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
Does she still look like a female Keith? |
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