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| Scottfree |
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"...
- Thomas Jefferson, 1787
Fuck you anti-americans.... |
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| fmk438j |
What's the deal with TJ having all those slaves and at the same time writing all the blah blah? I don't know American history so let me know. |
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| Scottfree |
It's called revisionist history, people attempt to diminish TJ becasue he was a hardline realist, and the leftists of the world just can't cope with his brilliance and foresight. |
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| TheSavageYoungXyzzy |
He was a slave-owner and general wanker with a few very good ideas, like that Declaration of Thingy.
Long live Hamilton!
-tSYX --- Federalist Extrordinaire! |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Scottfree wrote:
Fuck you anti-americans....
Well said, Scotty! Jefferson said: "Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us."
Like bible passages, quotes by famous people can be found to support almost any lame-brained idea.
The TYRANNY he was talking about was internal tyranny - like someone gaining the executive office without the will of the majority, for example.
Jefferson also said:
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive."
"Delay is preferable to error."
"Dependence (on oil?) begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."
"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
Oops! Too late, Tom!
"Force is the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism." Our main weapon is Shock ... and Awe. Our TWO main weapons are Shock and Awe, and overwhelming FORCE. Our THREE main weapons....
"War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses."
"The good opinion of mankind, like the lever of Archimedes, with the given fulcrum, moves the world."
Who else do you want to misinterpret?
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| telecaster |
"I cannot think of anyone less suited and less capable to be President of the United States than Thomas Jefferson."
Theodore Roosevelt
1895 |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
telecaster wrote:
"I cannot think of anyone less suited and less capable to be President of the United States than Thomas Jefferson."
Theodore Roosevelt
1895
ha ha HA! Well, it certainly makes sense that one would go to TR for quotes - even though he WAS a tree-hugger. His rhetoric mostly had to do with beating people with sticks, but I did find this:
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else."
Bush rarely tells the truth about anything, but that's only because it's too hard to pronounce.
By the way, if I had to choose between Teddy Roosevelt and Thomas Jefferson, I would at least be happy that there were real statesmen to choose between, unlike "elections" today. Then I would vote for Jefferson.
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| Sir Stonesalot |
I wrote this in another thread....
>Oh, and by the way, Thomas Jefferson was one of the biggest 2 faced pricks on the planet in his day. As duplicitous as they came. He preached that "All men were created equal", and touted abolition. Yet he never freed any of his 300+ slaves...in fact, he would pay off his debtors in slaves when he was short on cash flow. It was widely documented that he would flog his runaways himself, and had slave mistresses. He hated the Federalists with a passion, yet refered to Virginia as his "soveriegn nation". He also stated many times that a populist voting method was a huge mistake. He thought that the common man was incapable of deciding who should represent them in Congress...on a State or National level. he said that a popular vote was fine for the House of Representatives, but not for the Senate or Chief Exectutive. He said that the common man was incapable of making proper decisions. Mr. Jefferson was also an extremely vain man. Everything he did, he did with an eye toward how he would be remebered. He compromised his personal beliefs for the sake of looking good for posterity. In other words...he was a politician. He was one of our Founding Fathers, and died over $100,000 in debt. So you can point to what Jefferson said all you like....but chances were that he didn't really mean it....it just looked good on paper.<
Thomas jefferson was really great at writing grand, and glorious statements. It's a shame he didn't walk it like he talked it.
I can sum up the root cause of the American Civil War in 2 words....Thomas Jefferson.
[Edited by Sir Stonesalot] |
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| telecaster |
Good post SS. Just read "John Adams". It backs up your post
perfectly |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
>Oh, and by the way, Thomas Jefferson was one of the biggest 2 faced pricks on the planet in his day...
Thomas jefferson was really great at writing grand, and glorious statements. It's a shame he didn't walk it like he talked it.
I can sum up the root cause of the American Civil War in 2 words....Thomas Jefferson.
[Edited by Sir Stonesalot]
Well, I don't know about all THAT, but...
(it always cracks me up when posts start like that)
I hope the rant about that bad Tommy Jefferson was directed at Scott and not me. Although if I hadda pick between him and Teddy Roosevelt I'd still go with Jefferson. (Hated Teddy's pince-nez glasses, and I will NOT vote for a man with a moustache.) Scotty was the one who named the thread "timeless relevance" and tried to bend Jefferson's words to his own ideas. I simply went to a quote site and (easily) dug up a dozen other bon mots that showed Scott was mistaken in his assertions.
As for Jefferson talking the talk but walking the dog - his "grand and glorious statements" are what we're left with now. I don't give a shit that there were skeletons in his closet. |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
My post wasn't really aimed at anyone...I'm just saying that Jefferson was a typical politician. As such, his statements are suspect. Politicians are a bunch of 2 faced pricks, willing to say whatever sounds good if it furthers their own quest for power. I only care about facts. Pointing at long dead politicians and their propaganda to support anything is rather absurd.
I prefer to point at the facts that are now coming to light through the international press that is covering the conflict in Iraq. These fact, more and more, support the need for the removal of the Hussein Regime, by any means necessary.
But I am curious about your statement:
>As for Jefferson talking the talk but walking the dog - his "grand and glorious statements" are what we're left with now. I don't give a shit that there were skeletons in his closet. <
It seems to me that our current President is making a lot of the same type of grand and glorious statements. Yet obviously you care about the skeletons in HIS closet. Is not what is good for the goose(Jefferson), also good for the gander(Lil' George)?
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| steel driving hammer |
Jee I never thought I'd say this but, there's too much politics going on!
- Just play the fucking Stones and everything will be fine.
Stud Driving Muffin 2003
When you hear the music, trouble disappear... |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
I only care about facts. Pointing at long dead politicians and their propaganda to support anything is rather absurd.
[quote]
Yeah, why would anyone care what the guy that wrote the
Declaration of Independence had to say about anything? I suppose "long dead politicians and their propaganda" could be extended to include the Constitution too. Actually, our country is built on a foundation of long-dead politicians' propaganda.
[quote]Sir Stonesalot wrote:
I prefer to point at the facts that are now coming to light through the international press that is covering the conflict in Iraq.
[quote]
Which ones? The pictures of a couple of Iraqis dancing "for joy"? The chemical weapons plant that now they're not sure really IS a chemical weapons plant? You and Riffy gotta let the ink dry on these "facts" before you start celebrating. Fact is, a million Iraqis in Basra haven't had water or electricity for three days. What a glorious triumph of human rights!
[quote]Sir Stonesalot wrote:
These fact, more and more, support the need for the removal of the Hussein Regime, by any means necessary.
[quote]
No matter if it wrecks our already tottering economy, and how many Americans die in the process. Although as far as I can tell, none of the warmongerers here actually KNOW anyone who's been put in harm's way by Bush. Makes it easier that way. That one Marine's father didn't seem to agree, but he was a cry-baby. We've talked about it many times - I look at my son, and I ask myself if it's worth risking his life to invade Iraq, and I quickly have an answer. NO.
We've put up with shit like Saddam's for the entire history of our country, including several places where we ACTED like him, and there is nothing about him in particular or this point in time that makes this war unavoidable. Bush made up the "deadline" arbitrarily and would've invaded no matter what.
I am NOT a supporter of Saddam. I just think he shoulda been taken out in '91 when we actually had a mandate from the rest of the world to do so. The reasons he WASN'T - that the vacuum created might be more dangerous than his tyranny - are no different today. We have a great record of SAYING we're going to make sure everything is better than new when we're done, but somehow it never happens. And I'll bet you a dollar that will be the case again this time.
[quote]Sir Stonesalot wrote:
But I am curious about your statement:
>Jefferson yadda yadda walking the dog - <
It seems to me that our current President is making a lot of the same type of grand and glorious statements. Yet obviously you care about the skeletons in HIS closet. Is not what is good for the goose(Jefferson), also good for the gander(Lil' George)?
Jefferson's questionable activities are long gone; the words he wrote, whether he lived by them or not, continue to have relevance. "Skeletons in the closet" for Bush would include DUI's, drug use (hey, I'm FOR that!), cheating on college exams, ruining businesses, etc, and although they do reflect the true stature of the man, I don't care about them. AT ALL. His "grand and glorious statements" are lies written for him by hirelings and he can barely blunder his way through reading them off a teleprompter. He is doing a much better job of blundering his way into the middle of the most volitile area in the world and creating a hatred for America that will never be undone.
Gregg and I were talking the other night and I decided that Bush must've seen "Lawrence of Arabia" and rooted for the pinhead British officers who lied to the Arabs and arbitrarily created the fucking nightmare the Middle East is today. He SHOULD'VE been paying attention to Peter O'Toole (who was rightfully honored for a lifetime of coolness at the Oscars) as the title character who actually had an understanding of the area and the natives and tried to do the right thing.
"Yeah," said Gregg, "but Lawrence got fucked up the ass."
"Yes," I said. "By the Turks."
Again, Bush shoulda paid attention to Lawrence, cuz the Turks are gonna fuck HIM up the ass first chance they get.
But that's only ONE of the many problems Bush has to deal with. And he is NOT equal to the task.
Even _I_ figured winning the war would be pretty simple, and that the aftermath was going to be the quagmire that ruins us. After this weekend, I'm not even sure about that. |
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| Fiji Joe |
FPM...you worried?..seriously?...This is war you know?...not a bunko game...I made a personal prediction of 800 American deaths as result of this campaign...and honestly...Barring a chemical attack, I don't see it happening...20 or so deaths to be 50 miles from Baghdad is amazing!
Let's put a little perspective on this...800 people died on our highways last week alone...yet, I bet you still drive...
Not downplaying the deaths...heroes all of them...but from a military standpoint...this campaign, like the first Gulf war, are unprecedented in military history as far the preservation of military and civilian life...
It irks me somewhat to think though that if it were we not so concerned about killing "innocent" (yes sarcasm) Iraqis, the coalition death toll would be far less...
And when the hell did the Poles send troops?..God bless em
[Edited by Fiji Joe] |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
I don't blame that grief stricken father for his actions. He is entitled to his righteous anger. And I understand how you feel about your son. I have one too.
However, everyone knows what the ramifications are when they sign those enlistment papers. I did. Remember, we have completely VOLUNTEER armed services. With the world situation the way that it is...and has been for many years now...anyone who signs up better have a good grasp of what they are doing. No one FORCES anyone to put on that uniform....unless it's to avoid jail time. When the time comes, if your boy, or my boy for that matter, shows interest in joining up, it is our duty as parents to make sure that they know...if there is a war, they could be sent into combat. They could be killed. This stuff is real, it's not a Playstation 2 game. There is no reset button. Yet ultimately, it won't be our decision.
As far as the rest of this...I'm not gonna bother debating it with you. We know where we stand, and we won't change each other's minds.
Oh, and for the record...I didn't vote for Lil' Georgie either.
Oh, and another thing...Jefferson wouldn't be doing any better in this world climate either. In fact, I don't think there is ANYONE who can do well in this world climate. I'm just glad that I live in the country that has the biggest penis. |
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| Scottfree |
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"...
- Thomas Jefferson, 1787
quote:
FPM C10 wrote:
Like bible passages, quotes by famous people can be found to support almost any lame-brained idea.
The TYRANNY he was talking about was internal tyranny - like someone gaining the executive office without the will of the majority, for example.
Just like the bible people interpet it in different manners, I believe TJ meant internally or externally.
I doubt that he did mean the will of majority for executive office, as oppossed to the electoral college, seeing as how the 12th amendment was ratified in 1804 under TJ. |
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| Sir Stonesalot |
It is a documented FACT that Jefferson did not want the President elected by the masses. Hence the 12th amendment. But it went even further than that. He didn't think that the Senate should be elected by popular vote either.
It's just another example of Jefferson's duplicity. One of the US's "Fathers of Democracy"...who didn't feel that populist elections for high office was a good idea.
I still say that pointing to anything Jefferson says to support an opinion is absurd. |
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| Scottfree |
quote:
Sir Stonesalot wrote:
I still say that pointing to anything Jefferson says to support an opinion is absurd.
How is this:
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and evil-doers....
SH-2003 |
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