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| Mother baby |
I was messing around the internet awhile ago looking for pix of Johnson. I guess there's only 2 that still exist. But at any rate I just ended up reading lyrics (again). And I got to pondering. Really what did he have that makes him important? Just reading the seeming "not so special" lyrics gave me a high so to speak.
What I'm saying is that is it possible that the lyrics themselves can make the music? I got some wonderful vibes just reading him.
[Edited by Mother baby] |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Mother baby wrote:
What I'm saying is that is it possible that the lyrics themselves can make the music? I got some wonderful vibes just reading him.
No, lyrics alone cannot make music. In fact it's generally a falsehood that lyrics can be great poetry. Johnson's enduring greatness lies not in his lyrics, his persona, or even his amazing technique on guitar. All of these elements blend together to create a whole that cannot be reduced to its components. Johnson's art is an expression of a shared human experience which transcends lines of gender, race, time and place. We cannot judge Johnson himself - we never heard him play in a dirt-floor roadhouse - we can only judge the recordings. The recordings themselves - the primitive technology available in the 30's lend them a feeling of distance and separation from time - provide a glimpse into the soul of humanity. |
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| JaggaRichards |
Johnson's voice alone does it for me. |
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| Mother baby |
quote:
FPM C10 wrote:
Johnson's art is an expression of a shared human experience which transcends lines of gender, race, time and place. We cannot judge Johnson himself - we never heard him play in a dirt-floor roadhouse - we can only judge the recordings. The recordings themselves - the primitive technology available in the 30's lend them a feeling of distance and separation from time - provide a glimpse into the soul of humanity.
"Dirt Floor Roadhouse"
I guess that says it all. That'd be a great handle. Maybe you ought to check out the lyrics again. You never know you may have missed something.
[Edited by Mother baby] |
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| T&A |
To anyone who isn't impressed with Johnson's lyrical "poetry" - I guess I would ask - give me an example of lyrical poetry that does impress you. Johnson's gift for lyric was IMMENSE, IMO.
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| Moonisup |
when i hear Robert johnson, it's like a guy with 5 arms
in Bill's blues odyssey are 2 pics of him |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Mother baby wrote:
Maybe you ought to check out the lyrics again. You never know you may have missed something. This guy was good.
I think you misunderstood my post. Johnson's lyrics ARE great, his guitar playing, as Keith said, is akin to Bach, and his voice was an instrument capable of expressing emotions many of us didn't even know we possessed. But the reason he remains important is far more complex than any of those individual parts.
A friend of mine who's a great poet (the published kind, not the 9th grade Jim Morrison wannabe kind) made the distinction between lyrics and poetry, and I'm taking her word for it. (I said that Bob Dylan is a great poet and she said that actually he's a lousy poet but a great lyricist.) So I guess I'm just sticking to a rigid definition of "poetry".
If anyone thinks I was dissing Robert Johnson, go read my post again! |
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| Riffhard |
I don't know about all that FPM,but "squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg",sounds like poetry to me!
Your right though,ofcourse. It's the sum of RJ's talents that make him so legendary. Kinda mkes ya wonder if he did indeed sell his soul at the crossroads.
Riffhard |
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| Gazza |
>I was messing around the internet awhile ago looking for pix of Johnson. I guess there's only 2 that still exist.
yep..youre right. Theres only two known photographs of him in existence - exactly the same number of graves supposedly containing his remains!!
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| Mother baby |
Hi Gerardo,
now see how easy that was...lol. Your partner always seems to be one step ahead of you. :
Just kiddin'....thanks for the help. But remember it's the little one not the big one. If you can pull it off anyway.
If not don't worry about it. |
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| Mathijs |
The thing with Johnson is a bit like with the Beatles: he just seemed to have invented a whole genre, and it sounds SO easy...."Yesterday" is a song seeming so simple we all could have written it -and we all know we lack the talent. If you listen to "32-20 Blues", it sounds like there's 4 guitars, and it sounds like a pop song. It sounds so pop, that after listening to it you're pushed in a cerain direction. Without Johnson, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Bill Haily and many more wouldn't have come up with the whole R&R genre.
Mathijs |
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| Martini |
quote:
Mother baby wrote:
And I got to pondering. Really what did he have that makes him important?
Robert Johnson was a fantastic player and a fantastic lyricist/poet. I would argue that the imagery he employed was highly original for the time, particularly when compared to the music of performers such as Wille McTell, Willie Johnson, Charley Patton (my personal favorite), Son House, and Blind Blake, among others. The "devil themes" were not that uncommon (e.g., if I remember correctly, Peetie Wheatstraw called himself the "High Sheriff of Hell"), but the way he used them with his passionate, desperate singing backed by his fluent, complex guitar style made for very powerful performances.
Also, from another post, I would also argue that any separation between lyrics and poetry is theoretical and arbitrary. Even though �Beowulf� was sung by scops, it is still a poem and a lyric. It is pretty well accepted that poets such as Thomas Wyatt and Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey wrote poems explicitly for the intention for being performed at court. Are these song lyrics or poems? Does it make a difference if it is published? Those two writers were not published in the modern sense of the word until after their deaths�-their work circulated in manuscripts. I think the closer you look at this separation, the more it seems to flip the other way. But, of course, people have the freedom to draw their boundaries in any way that pleases them. To each his own. But I think it is a pretty good bet that the first human poetry that ever existed was probably sung; it was not getting bound and sent to Amazon.com to be purchased by a bunch of lettuce-eating English professors. They were all poems/lyrics.
As I see it, Bob Dylan is an immensely talented poet/lyricist. Sure, he sacrifices the integrity of the poetic line occasionally so that it meshes more easily with the music, but that is fine with me. I think a great poet/lyricist like Leonard Cohen has more difficulty putting his verse to music, because he doesn�t compromise it as often by incorporating colloquialisms and folk speech mannerisms. Consequently, Cohen�s lyrics/poems read better on the page than Dylan�s and sound a little more formal, but they sometimes struggle to be musical. I think Dylan is easily as good of a poet as most of his Beat contemporaries and, like them, some of his writing is uneven. But a great portion of it is stunning, whether it is read or heard.
--MM |
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| exile |
I believe that the legend goes
Robert Johnson was the bluesman who apparently sold his soul to the devil to become the greatest blues guitarist
can anyone provide any more information or a more detailed description on this myth or legend? |
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| VoodooChileInWOnderl |
Hey Mother, yes Gazza rules
How about these
.jpg)
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| Mother baby |
quote:
exile wrote:
I believe that the legend goes
Robert Johnson was the bluesman who apparently sold his soul to the devil to become the greatest blues guitarist
can anyone provide any more information or a more detailed description on this myth or legend?
Well first off I hate to recommend bad movies but...there's one out there about Johnson. A kid I was working with rented it and we watched it his apt. I guess he had done some kind of high School research project on Robert Johnson. Anyway something about the "30th song" or something like that. I wish I could remember the title of it for you. It does tell the story/legend though, even though I thought the acting, script, directing etc was lousy, imo anyway. I think most video rental places have it.
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| Mother baby |
quote:
VoodooChileInWOnderl wrote:
Hey Mother, yes Gazza rules
Thanks Voodoo. Some nice paintings there.
But its the little photo with the cigarette hanging out of his mouth...
[Edited by Mother baby] |
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| Egbert |
For anyone interested in reading up on Robt Johnson and most of the other major American bluesmen (and blueswomen) of the (approx) 1920's to 1960's, I highly recommend the paperback "Deep Blues" by Robert Palmer. |
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| VoodooChileInWOnderl |
Ok, Mother baby, this is your new avatar
The location (URL) is: http://www.albec.net.mx/personales/rocksoff/avatar-motherbaby.jpg
So just enter this location into your avatar box in your profile http://novogate.com/boards/profile.php?boardid=968 |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Martini wrote:
(e.g., if I remember correctly, Peetie Wheatstraw called himself the "High Sheriff of Hell"
--MM
I believe he also went by "The Devil's Son-in-Law" but that may be more of a refection on MRS. Wheatstraw!
I agree with every well-stated syllable in your post, Martini, and I believe that _I_ may have misunderstood the original question. Not only that, but I think the poet I was quoting eats lettuce! MY (admittedly uneducated) sense of "poetry" has always been writing which goes beyond the literal meaning of the words. The words are waves on the surface which speak of a greater turbulence beneath. And as great as Johnson's lyrics are, the evocation of emotional depths his music plumbs would exist if he was singing gibberish. The SOUND of the recordings and the performance cuts to the core.
Be that as it may, this thread has been highly enjoyable so far.
For those of you looking for a video about Johnson, I find John Hammond's "The Search For Robert Johnson" to be superior to "Can't You Hear The Wind Howl". Both are good, though, and neither one features Ralph Macchio pretending to play the guitar.
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| Zeeta |
Whilst on bluesmen, do you guys rate Muddy Waters? I do! He is amazing, I recently came accross a song with him and the Stones singing together! He is the Daddy!
Cheers |
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| Moonisup |
WEll I like muddy almost as big as the stones!
The cd from him with Johhny winter is just as good as exile, listen muddy and hear the stones!!!
[Edited by Moonisup] |
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| JaggaRichards |
quote:
Mother baby wrote:
Well first off I hate to recommend bad movies but...there's one out there about Johnson. A kid I was working with rented it and we watched it his apt. I guess he had done some kind of high School research project on Robert Johnson. Anyway something about the "30th song" or something like that. I wish I could remember the title of it for you. It does tell the story/legend though, even though I thought the acting, script, directing etc was lousy, imo anyway. I think most video rental places have it.
The movie is called 'Crossroads' (1987) and stars Ralph 'The Karate Kid' Macchio. Steve Vai also has a major role in it. Worth watching IMO. |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
JaggaRichards wrote:
The movie is called 'Crossroads' (1987) and stars Ralph 'The Karate Kid' Macchio. Steve Vai also has a major role in it. Worth watching IMO.
Yep, when it comes to Robert Johnson, nobody knows better than the Karate Kid and the guy who played guitar for David Lee Roth.
And when you're done with that, you can rent the 2002 movie also called "Crossroads" starring Britney Spears as a black man who sells his soul to the devil.
Seriously, though, you'd be MUCH better served watching the two documentaries I mentioned. If you insist on a Hollywood movie, the Johnson myth is also touched upon in the GREAT Cohen Brothers masterpiece "O Brother Where Art Thou?" The character of Tommy Johnson is supposed to be Robert - Tommy was one of his psuedonyms in real life.
It also stars Ralph "TheKarateKid" Macchio as Elmore James.
(just kidding about that last part)
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| nankerphelge |
You know, part of the beauty of having met you is knowing exactly the inflection in your voice and that gleam in your eye as you peel off one of these sarcastic posts!! |
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| FPM C10 |
Thanks Nanky! I know it's hard for some people to tell when I'm kidding. C10 Forever!
quote:
Zeeta wrote:
Whilst on bluesmen, do you guys rate Muddy Waters? Cheers
To tell you the truth, I place Muddy Waters ABOVE the revered Robert Johnson. Although his earliest stuff (found on "The Plantation Recordings") isn't QUITE as great as Johnson's stuff, he is responsible for taking the Delta Blues up to Chicago, electrifying it, creating the template for all blues-based rock bands to follow, providing the Rolling Stones with their name and initial mission in life, and thereby bringing the Blues to all of US. He left behind an unparalleled legacy of blues recordings, all of which are worth having. The Chess Box and all of his Blue Sky releases (Hard Again, I'm Ready, King Bee, and Muddy "Mississippi" Waters Live) are MUST-HAVES. Johnny Winter produced and played on all of the Blue Sky records.
I saw the great man twice in 1980 - once in Philly opening for Eric Clapton, and again at a gin mill called Mancini's in McKees Rocks PA. At this second show I sat at front table with a lady who turned out to be his wife, and slapped five with Mud when he was done. It was a defining moment in my life, one that ranks with any Stones show I ever saw. Hopefully when Voodoo gets my email, a photo of this momentous occasion will appear here.
Muddy was indeed the DADDY. Of us ALL! |
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| Mother baby |
Well, I guess you're right,FPM. The first time I got turned on to Muddy Waters was when I was still in High school, 69 or 70 or there abouts. This other kid I was going to school with was house sitting a guys camp. So he says to me "come down for the night and listen to this stuff I got my hands on." So me and another guy went down, grabbed a few beers or something (maybe something else too..lol..I don't know). Well he's got 3 Muddy Waters LPS. I mean it was great and I liked it I guess. But the thing of it was, that it went right over my head. I mean I didn't have a clue. I could have cared less about "Muddy Waters" then. It was a good 15-20 years after that I started to put 2+2 together. Now I wish I had paid more attetion. |
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| stewed & Keefed |
Hi Exile,
Regarding the story of Robert Johnson selling his soul.
Apparantly, the great Son House saw him play one night in a club and thought he was ordinary,then saw him again a year later and said he must of sold his soul to become that good.
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| FPM C10 |
Here (I hope) is one of the pictures I took of Muddy Waters that night.
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| Cant Catch Me |
Perhaps they only sold their souls to a lesser fiend, not the Great Horned One himself, but any list of great bluesmen has to include Howlin' Wolf, John Lee Hooker and the King gang, of which I prefer Albert King and Freddie King to the better-known B.B.
Howlin' Wolf's voice just blew me away the first time I heard him on record, it's just so absolutely unearthly. I had an Italian pressing of a Howlin' Wolf record with liner notes that were just hilarious, talking about his big head, about him working the fields and him squeezing out words in that voice. I ought to see if I still have that.
And the Howlin' Wolf "London Sessions" is one of the very best blues records ever made, featuring of course Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts (I think they're the Stones members represented), Nicky Hopkins and Eric Clapton. |
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| exile |
Thanks stewed & Keefed for the info |
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