|
|
| Mother baby |
Look I know that we'll beat Saddam.
But there's too many bugs in my phone, too many cameras on the street, and too many busy bodies who can't wait to screw someone else. I'm going to paraphrase Deirtich Bonnhoffer here..
When they came for the Muslims
I didn't say anything
because I wasn't a Muslim
When they came for the Christians
I didn't say anything
because I wasn't a christian
When they came for The Beatles fans
I wasn't a Beatles fan..
so I didn't say anything
etc.etc.
And when they finally came for me
there was noone left to speak up.
|
|
|
| Mother baby |
Oh I'm sorry, I forgot...
"It can't Happen Here"
Sinclair Lewis
|
|
|
| telecaster |
quote:
Mother baby wrote:
Look I know that we'll beat Saddam.
But there's too many bugs in my phone, too many cameras on the street, and too many busy bodies who can't wait to screw someone else. I'm going to paraphrase Deirtich Bonnhoffer here..
When they came for the Muslims
I didn't say anything
because I wasn't a Muslim
When they came for the Christians
I didn't say anything
because I wasn't a christian
When they came for The Beatles fans
I wasn't a Beatles fan..
so I didn't say anything
etc.etc.
And when they finally came for me
there was noone left to speak up.
Mother I like your post and glad to see you firmly believe in the right to bear arms and personal gun ownership.
|
|
|
| Maxlugar |
I am so sick of the French.
The next time anyone brings up that pic of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam, I want them to also mention this picture of the current leader of France.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/313ycqje.asp
I don't know what they are doing in those white lab coats but I can assure you it aint breaking down the finer points of Rolling Stones songs.
Nice article too.
|
|
|
| Scot Rocks |
Agree with you there, individual freedom and rights are the most important thing to guard. With another patriot act on its way I would keep a close watch, that the state doesn't take more power against the citizen.
Cheers
Mark |
|
|
| Angiegirl |
The generalizations on this topic make me sick ('the Dutch are pro-war', 'the French are disgusting', 'the Americans are this' and 'the Europeans are that'). It's all pathetic, and I think I'll go back to the Stones-topics where we use to have more tolerance.
So I'll stop reading further now (I know you ain't gonna miss me, lol), before I have to throw up. I'm Dutch, you see...
[Edited by Angiegirl] |
|
|
| Scottfree |
quote:
Angiegirl wrote:
I think I'll go back to the Stones-topics where we use to have more tolerance.
[Edited by Angiegirl]
I love when people start throwing tolerance into the fray, tolerance for what I ask? The left in this country always pleads tolerance, sorry I can't tolerate wrong doing..... |
|
|
| egon |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
I am so sick of the French.
The next time anyone brings up that pic of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam, I want them to also mention this picture of the current leader of France.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/313ycqje.asp
I don't know what they are doing in those white lab coats but I can assure you it aint breaking down the finer points of Rolling Stones songs.
Nice article too.
yeah, very unfortunate that no one was taking pictures when
the bush family invited the bin ladens for a cup of tea to discuss oil. (you know the bin ladens, they're very much into planes)
let's not pretend here that only france has a dirty history. |
|
|
| jb |
I thouhgt we promised not to discuss politics anymore?
[Edited by jb] |
|
|
| egon |
we're talking photos jb!
but ok;
how's it going? |
|
|
| glencar |
Egon, the French are still helping, aiding, abetting the Iraqis. They've violated all forms of blockades. If you have a photo, post it. And don't forget to include the date on it so it'll make sense to everyone. |
|
|
| glencar |
Well, what do you know? This is courtesy of Nellcote on the Chrissie Hyndequarters thread...
Iraq strengthens air force with French parts
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
A French company has been selling spare parts to Iraq for its fighter jets and military helicopters during the past
several months, according to U.S. intelligence officials.
The unidentified company sold the parts to a trading company in the United Arab Emirates, which then shipped
the parts through a third country into Iraq by truck.
The spare parts included goods for Iraq's French-made Mirage F-1 jets and Gazelle attack helicopters.
An intelligence official said the illegal spare-parts pipeline was discovered in the past two weeks and that
sensitive intelligence about the transfers indicates that the parts were smuggled to Iraq as recently as January.
Other intelligence reports indicate that Iraq had succeeded in acquiring French weaponry illegally for years, the
official said.
The parts appear to be included in an effort by the Iraqi military to build up materiel for its air forces before any
U.S. military action, which could occur before the end of the month.
The officials identified the purchaser of the parts as the Al Tamoor Trading Co., based in Dubai, United Arab
Emirates. A spokesman for the company could not be reached for comment.
The French military parts were then sent by truck into Iraq from a neighboring country the officials declined to
identify.
Iraq has more than 50 Mirage F-1 jets and an unknown number of Gazelle attack helicopters, according to the
London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.
An administration official said the French parts transfers to Iraq may be one reason France has so vehemently
opposed U.S. plans for military action against Iraq. "No wonder the French are opposing us," this official said.
The official, however, said intelligence reports of the parts sale did not indicate that the activity was sanctioned
by the French government or that Paris knows about the transfers.
The intelligence reports did not identify the French company involved in selling the aircraft parts or whether the
parts were new or used.
The Mirage F-1 was made by France's Dassault Aviation. Gazelle helicopters were made by Aerospatiale, which
later became part of a consortium of European defense companies.
The importation of military goods by Iraq is banned under U.N. Security Council resolutions passed since the 1991
Persian Gulf war.
Nathalie Loiseau, press counselor at the French Embassy, said her government has no information about the
spare-parts smuggling and has not been approached by the U.S. government about the matter.
"We fully comply with the U.N. sanctions, and there is no sale of any kind of military material or weapons to Iraq,"
she said.
A CIA spokesman had no comment.
A senior administration official declined to discuss Iraq's purchase of French warplane and helicopter parts. "It is
well known that the Iraqis use front companies to try to obtain a number of prohibited items," the official said.
The disclosure comes amid heightened anti-French sentiment in the United States over Paris' opposition to U.S.
plans for using force to disarm Iraq.
A senior defense official said France undermined U.S. efforts to disarm Iraq last year by watering down language
of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 that last fall required Iraq to disarm all its chemical, biological and
nuclear weapons programs.
France, along with Russia, Germany and China, said yesterday that they would block a joint U.S.-British U.N.
resolution on the use of force against Iraq.
French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin told reporters in Paris on Wednesday that France "will not allow a
resolution to pass that authorizes resorting to force."
"Russia and France, as permanent members of the Security Council, will assume their full responsibilities on this
point," he stated.
France has been Iraq's best friend in the West. French arms sales to Baghdad were boosted in the 1970s under
Premier Jacques Chirac, the current president. Mr. Chirac once called Saddam Hussein a "personal friend."
During the 1980s, when Paris backed Iraq in its war against Iran, France sold Mirage fighter bombers and Super
Entendard aircraft to Baghdad, along with Exocet anti-ship missiles.
French-Iraqi ties soured after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait that led to the 1991 Persian Gulf war.
France now has an estimated $4 billion in debts owed to it by Iraq as a result of arms sales and infrastructure
construction projects. The debt is another reason U.S. officials believe France is opposing military force to oust
Saddam.
Henry Sokolski, director of the private Nonproliferation Policy Education Center, said French transfers of military
equipment to Iraq would have "an immediate and relevant military consequence, if this was done."
"The United States with its allies are going to suppress the Iraqi air force and air defense very early on in any
conflict, and it's regrettable that the French have let a company complicate that mission," Mr. Sokolski said.
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell last month released intelligence information showing videotape of an Iraqi F-1
Mirage that had been modified to spray anthrax spores.
A CIA report to Congress made public in January stated that Iraq has aggressively sought advanced conventional
arms. "A thriving gray-arms market and porous borders have allowed Baghdad to acquire smaller arms and
components for larger arms, such as spare parts for aircraft, air defense systems, and armored vehicles," the CIA
stated.
Iraq also has obtained some military goods through the U.N.-sponsored oil-for-food program.
A second CIA report in October on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stated: "Iraq imports goods using planes,
trains, trucks, and ships without any type of international inspections � in violation of UN Security Council
resolutions." |
|
|
| Monkey Woman |
Guilty by association, now! How cute! 
I agree about the less than pure reasons for the French anti-war stance, but what about the shadowy conduct of the USA governement? And the media who aid and abet them?
First, why single the French company in that title? What about the Dubai emirate? And the unnamed 'neighboring country'? Might it be Turkey, with its large common border with Iraq, highly courted potential ally of the war coalition?
Three guesses, folks!
What's even remotely new about an international 'grey market' in weapons? Arms smugglers don't ask the permission of the French government, but thank you for suggesting that Chirac and Villepin are so powerful that they give the nod to every under-the-table arms sale with countries that were once their allies and who have not been anymore since 15 years!
To get the records right, don't forget that France took part in the 1st Gulf War, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. French soldiers died there, as well as American, English and many other nationalities. R.I.P.
quote:
Well, what do you know?
That most of the info in this article is well known here.
There was a very good documentary last month, made by an international team including French, English and German, about the building of Iraq's strength. It was on French national television and there was talk about it in the media, not to the advantage of the current government!
There was the photo of Rumsfeld AND the one of Chirac.
In the 1970s and '80s, many countries helped Iraq build their weapons industry. Not only France, but also Italy, Germany, England and... yes, the USA. From France came a lot of the know-how in nuclear and aeronautics, from Germany some useful chemistry, and from the USA the bacteria and virus strains needed in biological weapons (disguised as ordinary scientific research material). They had to be discreet because it wasn't someting they should have been proud of! And Iraq was openly an ennemy of Israel. Other countries like Italy were intermediaries in those shadowy deals, Russia and China sold Iraq missiles and conventional weapons, etc.
At the time, the USA (and most countries) thought Iraq 'better' than Iran.
Since the end of the '80s and the full realization of Iraq's potential of destruction, with the mass murder of Kurd people, the Occident began to rethink their support and stop selling weapons and technology overtly. But the illegal smuggling went on, of course. Everybody took part in it. To put it on the head of France now is more than a little ironic!
Recently, the USA government didn't want the media invited the day Blix presented the report of his inspectors to UNO. I wonder why? Because the report shows that Iraq did begin to cooperate actively in the past month, maybe? Yeah, and maybe I'm a cynical bitch!  |
|
|
| Fiji Joe |
"Recently, the USA government didn't want the media invited the day Blix presented the report of his inspectors to UNO. I wonder why? Because the report shows that Iraq did begin to cooperate actively in the past month, maybe? Yeah, and maybe I'm a cynical bitch!"
Not "cynical"...simply confused...the key here MonkeyW..."did begin to cooperate"...in the manner and to the extent of their picking...The UN is a farce...flat out...and it is abundantly clear, regardless of the past-history of other nations...that France and Germany are acting out of pure economic interest...
Another dynamic that does not face these vetoing countries...Iraq has not sworn their nations to death or conspired to assasinate their leaders...Thus, they do not have as much at stake...I can guaran-damn-tee you if this were the case, these countries would be asking for our help and they would receive it...
Look...there are two ways to rid the world of tyrants and terrorists..you can exterminate them one by one at a great cost to human lives...or you can put in place the mechanisms whereby their murdereous ideologies cannot exist...that is done by the establishment of democracy...and I get tired of people saying that muslim nations cannot be democratic...this is BS...when they are sufficiently secular, they, if given the chance, can do it realtively easily...see e.g., Turkey...
So, it was refreshing to see W finally let the cat of the bag last night...as I have been saying all along, this is the true goal of the adminsitration...the most worthiest and lofty of goals...one that will give Mr. Bush the legacy that Bill Clinton always wanted...It's about the nutz...Bill...you gotta have the nutz
|
|
CHAT ROOM aka THE FUN HOUSE] [
RESTROOMS]