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| Cant Catch Me |
Howzabout what Dubya listens to again, not the politics of the man?
Howzabout anything by the band Tool? |
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| Dan |
And to answer the original question put forth several pages ago.
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/10599.html
"The president has owned the personal accessory of the moment for some time, said Johndroe. He's loaded his iPod with his favorite country singers: George Jones, Kenny Chesney and Alan Jackson. He also listens to Aaron Neville, Creedence and Van Morrison."
Wonder if he bought that music or downloaded it...? |
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| Riffhard |
I did not type out this whole long assed post just to see it get buried before my man FPM has had a chance to see it!
Oh,and I'm very very close to breaking into the 1000 post count! Yay me!
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quote:
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FPM C10 wrote:
As for your boy saying "it ends here, right fucking now" (I love how in your stories all of these Republican creeps talk like Clint Eastwood) - it doesn't end here(Iraq) or now (2 years ago). N. Korea and Iran are both far more likely candidates for actually being guilty of the stuff you accuse Iraq of, yet neither one of them is TOO concerned about us, because we're mired down for the foreseeable future in Iraq. Another country guilty of housing terrorists is, of course, Saudi Arabia, but we can't invade them. Wouldn't be prudent.
Hey, we just have different pictures of what we think America is or should be, and mine doesn't wear jackboots. That's all.
See you Saturday, my friend!
(ahem...Tele, Poplar, Bloozey - this is how civilized people have political discussions.)
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I certainly was not quoting Bush. I was merely pointing out that his words and actions made it plainly obvious that his track was one of no wiggle room for Iraq. Iraq,ofcourse,felt that some key members of the UN Security Council had their back. Iraq,with France,Germany,and Russia's tacit appproval,tried to wiggle out of the UN Sanctions and Resolutions once again. Bush was having none of it. With the evidence mounting concerning the Oil-for-Food scandal it's easy to see why Saddam felt he had an out. Afterall,he had receipts that would show that these very countries were in direct violation of the UN Resolutions that they had help draft to begin with! It's called blackmail and Saddam has made a career out of it. Along with murder,torture,invasion,and just being an all around evil tyrant. This guy is directly responsible for the death of well over six million people in the last 25 years alone. Admittedly he's not quite on par with Hitler with numbers like that,but what the hey,he is pretty twisted fuck in his own right.
I have always wondered why the left,and Kerry in particular,felt that we had to have France's blessing to defend the UN Resolutions. They were drafted has a means to gain a cease fire agreement with Iraq back 1991. We never ended the war. The stipulation was that Iraq comply with UN Resolution 1441. They never did. Then 16 resolutions later they still refused to comply! With every one of those sacred UN Resolutions,and people wonder why the right has a problem with the UN,geesh! France then went out of their way to state publically no matter what evidence we may,or may not have against Iraq the point was moot. They were never going to consent on action agaist Saddam. By the way,did I mention the whole Oil-for-Food(Palaces) Scandal?
As to Korea and Iran. Two different countries with two different approaches all together.
We can't very well invade Iran when,to date,they have not violated any of the brave UN's resolutions as none have been drafted against them. Iran did not invade it's neighbors or use WMD's against it's own poulace. It's also a country on the cusp of another,decidely more democratic,revolution from within. There is no doubt that the vast majority of Iranians are pro Western,and are longing for the day when they can throw out the mullahs out once and for all. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that the US has special ops agents on the ground inside Iran working with the opposition groups to spur this revolution on. It's only a matter of time before the shoe drops inside Teherran. The recent elections inside Iraq will only hasten this process.
North Korea. A tuff nut for sure. However,China dosen't trust this nutball Kim Il Jong any more than we do. If they start to get too arrogant and dangerous with their own WMD programs Bejing will have to act. It will be in their own national security intrests. We have diplomatic pressure that can be applied to North Korea. That did not exist with Iraq. Did I mention the Oil-for-Food(Palaces)Scandal? Also,the fact that Lil' Kim is such a whackjob with his finger already on the button is reason enough to persue other avenues of action. Could you imagine that bloodbath? God,I don't even like to consider the possibility!
Bottom line is this. Iraq,in military parlance,was an "actionable target". They had violated the international law that they had agreed to abide by. They sit in the heart of the Middle East. They are also in between Iran and Syria. If we can successfully get democracy to take root inside Iraq it will only be a matter of time before it spreads. History is rife with eveidence that every time democracy has gained a foothold it has led to more democracy and,get this,liberalism! That's right totalatarian states have always been forced to adopt a more open and liberal form of goverment when democracy sits on their doorstep. See Eastern Europe cira 1989,and South East Asia after WWII. Admittedly things went a little south in Asia during Nam,but still the majority of Asia has adopted a very pro democartic goverment since the desolution of the Japanese Empire of the 1930's and 1940's.
That's my take anyway. So far the signs are pretty good. Syria out of Lebenon? Who would have thought that possible as recently as two months ago? Egypt is now considering new national multi-party elections?! Jordan's King Abdula stating publicly that he wants a more secular form of goverment and a true democracy?! Isreal and the Palistinians are trying to give peace a chance? Saudi Arabia holding national elections last week? Not perfect for sure,but it's certainly getting better. Overall Bush's plan is succeeding better than many on the left would ever admit,but they are certainly beggining to take note.
Riffhard
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| stonedinaustralia |
but let's get back to the real business at hand
how DO you get the US national anthem changed to "exile" in is entirety -
do we start with petitions or simply lobby your local congressman or senator???
i will do my bit from here and write to both the Prime Minister and the Minister for Foreign Affairs urging them to talk to "the right people" over there about this change
let's all work together on this one |
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| justforyou |
Ahem, ahh well let's pat the responsibles on their backs for the bloodshed and carnage that is still unleashed in a place called Iraq.
Now that yesterday's reasons have been abandoned, they have been replaced by hope. Hope for a more peaceful and thriving Middle East.
Was it worth it ? Too early to say, but personally I would say no, this is not the way to solve problems in todays world. Everyone, of course, is entitled to their own opinions. |
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| lotsajizz |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
We can't very well invade Iran when,to date,they have not violated any of the brave UN's resolutions as none have been drafted against them.
No one has succeeded in invading Iran since Alexander (1941 was an minor occupation amenable to those willing to accept big $). As the Emperor Julian about invading Persia!! (360-s A.D.)
doing my leftist part to help you to 1000 Riffy
ANSWER!!
Peace,
Sean |
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| time is on my side |
Democracy, it seems from some of the post I've been reading, is all so easy. You just win a war militarily, plant a democracy in a region, and just watch the sprouting of all these new democracies flourish all around you. By using this method, you can affect real change in an entire region of the world. It seems logical that everybody would want to control their own destinies. So who wouldn't want to live in a country where freedom is held sacred??? Where freedom of choice is a way of life and not some theory you secretly read in some foreign textbook. Where you can count on the help of the world's mightiest, richest country not only for long term economic aid but have the backing of the their military as well to make this dream come true. It had been done before. Look at the models after WWII (Japan and Germany) and just look what happened to South Korea after the Korean War. Not only do you get the benefit of a friendly government, who have much to be grateful for,but you also have the potential to vastly improve the overall standard of living of the general population. By planting democracies, you are making the world a safer, better place. You are creating a secure world not only in the here and now but for decades to come. Something future generations will be thankkful for.
Sounds great in theory doesn't it??? Not only is it great in theory but there are several great working models to show how successful it really can be. These thoughts must surely have crossed some of U.S. leaders back in 1965. When you're in a life and death struggle, it takes leaders with courage, vision, guts, and a sense of history to make a real difference. Southeast Asia was a region of under developed countries with a long history of being misruled by rulers whose only true aim were their lust for power and riches. The common people of this region had long since been forgotten or ,if remembered at all, oppressed so more blood and sweat could be drained away from them. It was a poor region. One that must be longing for change. What better opportunity could there be??? There was bright spot, a country where the seed could be planted. A country where free elections could, would be held. The country itself was an excellent candidate as it was being oppressed by a deadly, godless, evil enemy who had fallen under the sway of communism. Time to make a stand and create, plant a stable democracy in that seed of a country known as South Vietnam.
Does all of this sound familiar??? Where have I heard all of this before??? Will the lessons from history never been learned??? At the time, during let's say 1965, it wasn't clear at all to the leaders in charge that South Vietnam was one huge mistake. We only know that with the benefit of history looking back on past events. They themselves probably thought they were taking a courageous stand, that history would remember them well. We, of course, know different. The U.S. was, in fact, on the wrong side of history. One may ask, what the hell went wrong??? How could leaders not only mislead the people that trusted their judgment but mislead themselves so miserably???? From almost all accounts, the U.S. military won just about all the ground battles. So what happened???
Let me give you some of my conclusions. Establishing or planting a stable democracy is never easy business. Most of the worlds population does not live in freedom and there are reasons for this. However, sticking to the South Vietnam model, it succeeded to some degree in the short term but was doomed in the long run. Why??
One of the main reasons was that it succeeded in the short term only. The U.S. troops, soldiers were doing most of the fighting (they tried mixing the troops with South Vietnam along the lines of the South Korean model but it never was quite successful). You see to establish a democracy over the long run the people themselves have to be willing to fight, die for it sometimes against long odds. The South Vietnamese people were simply unwilling to commit themselves to this sacrifice. A majority of the people never really looked upon the U.S. as liberators but as merely occupiers using them for their own purposes; their own means. They never really trusted the U.S.
The exit strategy used was one basically that just said the following. We trained you as soldiers over many years, we now trust you with your security. The tactic used was something called Vietnameseation but it was really just a method to bring the troops home. Peace treaties were signed to secure that long lasting peace. We left and then, in only in a few short years, South Vietnam fell. This so called democracy was only an illusion and a figment of someone's imagination. You see the people themselves have to be ready, willing to die for democracy. You can't force a democracy on anyone that's not ready for it. There are too many forces aligned to destroy it whether it be external (the Vietcong in this case) or internally (weak, corrupt leaders in this case).
I could go on with many more examples but I just used South Vietnam to establish a point. The U.S. was on the right side of history when it defended South Korea because the people themselves were ready, willing to die for it over many years of struggle. It was on the wrong side of history a decade later because the South Vietnamese people were simply unable and unwilling to commit themselves to the necessary hardships to obtain ,what to them, must have seemed like a foreign concept, ideal. Different countries, different cultures. So ultimately, the U.S. doesn't really determine whether or not there is a stable democracy in any country. IT'S THE COUNTRIES THEMSELVES who make that final determination over the test of time.
Now finally, let's turn to Iraq. What's going to happen??? Can't really say as people living in the present don't really know for sure what the future has to offer. However, it's my best guess that Iraq, the democracy, doesn't last long after the U.S. troops leave and leave they will. Bush has already stated that when the Iraqis can handle security, we're as good as gone. With all the forces that Iraq will have to contend with- (external)the endless supply of suicide bombers; the religious, fanatic terrorist chomping at the bit to chop someone's head off; the many terrorist organizations determined to see this experiment fail; (internal)the civil unrest within their own country where minority groups such as the Sunnis are biding their time waiting for the U.S. troops to leave so they can make their own move for power, the continual threat that some military strongman may grab the reigns of power (how do you think Saddam came to rule Iraq in the first place???). I wouldn't give the Iraq democracy more than a few years at most once the U.S. troops have left. Hope I'm wrong though. If it does fail then at what cost??? Would it have been worth it??? I guess we'll have no choice but wait on the objective judgement of history to make that call and that verdict won't be in for at least a few decades.
[Edited by time is on my side] |
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| Maxlugar |
"However, it's my best guess that Iraq, the democracy, doesn't last long after the U.S. troops leave and leave they will."
I'll put my money on the 8 million gratefull Iraqi's who risked their lives to vote any day.
That's just one Jack Booted crazy guy's opinion though.
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| Nellcote |
Excuse my repetitive comment towards this, however,
if anyone is ready to tar & feather the US for the Iraqi action, please go and find 1 mother of the 1/2 million missing Iraqi individuals that Saddam & his family murdered and ask how they feel towards the US intervention in their country. They will wish it happened earlier to save their beloved family members.
In addition, funny how neighboring countries are suddenly talking about elections?
Bush will go down in history for laying the ground work to free this whole area from tyranny.
The quote of February was, when he was asked if the US planned any action towards Iran, "We have no plans to attack Iraq. Having said that, all options are on the table"
You are either with us or against us.
His fav song must be that old Nillson song, with the memorable refrain "Your breaking my heart, so f$@k you!" |
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| Starbuck |
quote:
Riffy wrote:
So far the signs are pretty good. Syria out of Lebenon? Who would have thought that possible as recently as two months ago? Egypt is now considering new national multi-party elections?! Jordan's King Abdula stating publicly that he wants a more secular form of goverment and a true democracy?! Isreal and the Palistinians are trying to give peace a chance? Saudi Arabia holding national elections last week? Not perfect for sure,but it's certainly getting better. Overall Bush's plan is succeeding better than many on the left would ever admit,but they are certainly beggining to take note."
riffy!
here are some "rose colored glasses" for you in case the ones you're looking at bushie's Mideast through get broken by an exploding car bomb:
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Nellcote wrote:
Excuse my repetitive comment towards this, however,
if anyone is ready to tar & feather the US for the Iraqi action, please go and find 1 mother of the 1/2 million missing Iraqi individuals that Saddam & his family murdered and ask how they feel towards the US intervention in their country. They will wish it happened earlier to save their beloved family members.
Yes, they might wish that. Especially if they see that oft-posted photo of our arrogant and incompetent Sec'y of "Defense" Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam while all of that was going down.
You might want to go find the mother of one of the - well, we don't know HOW many tens of thousands of Iraqis WE'VE killed, since no one bothers to count them - they might have a different opinion.
And then finally you might want to ask the mother of one of the 1500 Americans who have died so that Iraq can have an election and ask if it was worth it.
I'm not taking anything away from the election. It's the ONE instance of things actually working out pretty much as Bush said it would, so I don't blame you for crowing about it. It's just not worth the price tag, imo.
quote:
Nellcote wrote:
Bush will go down in history for laying the ground work to free this whole area from tyranny.
Either that or as the guy who bankrupted America...let's leave that up to history, shall we?
quote:
Nellcote wrote:
The quote of February was, when he was asked if the US planned any action towards Iran, "We have no plans to attack Iraq. Having said that, all options are on the table"
Is that really what he said, or is that just you being as facile with language as your hero? Funny, too, that the rest of the world knew immediately that he meant he WAS planning to invade Iran. War is Peace and all of that Orwellian stuff. Unless he really did say "Iraq" - but hey, those towel-heads all look alike, huh?
Where's he going to get the troops with which to invade Iran? And does he think the Iraqi "security forces" are going to watch his back while he does it? It's hard to rattle a sabre once you get it stuck in the sand.
quote:
Nellcote wrote:
You are either with us or against us.
Funny, Ronald Reagan used to confuse life for a cowboy movie quite often too. In reality quite a lot of the world is neither for him OR against him.
Maxy - I'm sorry that I injured your sensibilities with my line about jackboots. I'm pretty sure that's what army guys wear, though. But quit pouting. I didn't call you gay or anything.
Riffy - how splendidly refreshing to have someone present the right's side of things without once calling me gay! You are a gentleman and a wielder of the samuri sword of history! I don't agree with much of anything you say, but that's cool. I don't agree with your opinion, but I do respect your right to have it.
In other news, I saw this in the Staten Island Advance:
"Meanwhile, unsung blues hero Hubert Sumlin holds court Saturday night at B.B. King's Blues Club & Grill. "Howlin for Hubert" features Sumlin, David Johansen, Levon Helm, Jimmy Vivino, Michael Merritt and some surprise guests."
Notice those last three words?
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| Maxlugar |
[quote]FPM C10 wrote:
But quit pouting. I didn't call you gay or anything.
Oh I wasn't pouting. Just needling ya.
Now here's world class pouting:
"Fuck NO, asswipe. It wasn't a football game we lost, it was our country."
Whaaaaa!!!!
Holy over-the-top hysterics Batman!
Don't worry, you'll get it back. I have it on good authority that the next democratic president has just been
conceived and is growing rapidly.
M! |
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| FPM C10 |
Hey Maxy, any chance you might make the Hubert Sumlin show on Saturday? You should consider it.
Now, where were we? Oh yeah.
I know you are, but what am I? |
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| glencar |
This is still going on? To the long post by Timeisonmyside: Japan had no history of democracy. Democracy was planted there by A-bombs. Now it flourishes. There might be some old Japanese who still harbor grudges against ol' Harry Truman but I'm sure most J's are glad that they live in one of the world's stablest democracies.
The Iraq invasion hasn't turned out to be a walk in the park but most interviews I've read with families of dead soldiers indicate support for the mission. And the flourishing of democracy in Egypt, Lebanon & Palestine is a notable side effect & should not be discounted just because President Bush doesn't know how top pronounce "nuclear." As I recall, your genius Jimmy Carter (our worst POTUS of recent vintage) didn't pronounce it correctly either & he allegedly had some training in that field. |
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| Maxlugar |
[quote]FPM C10 wrote:
Hey Maxy, any chance you might make the Hubert Sumlin show on Saturday? You should consider it.
It's too short notice. I could have done it with a week more time. The wife is almost ready to pop the second of my demon seeds and she is finding it hard to keep up with the first without help. Today's women!
Is there anything else upcoming that Riffy can get us backstage at?
Oh and FPM, See you at www.Maxlugar.com
You are an All Star, aren't you?
MACKY!
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
glencar wrote:
As I recall, your genius Jimmy Carter (our worst POTUS of recent vintage) didn't pronounce it correctly either & he allegedly had some training in that field.
I forget - exactly when have I ever mentioned Jimmy Carter? Of course this beats yesterday when it was also assumed that I was a friend of Alan Alda's and LIBERACE's, fer crissakes.
Talking to you guys is like being on the O'Reilly Factor!
Just because most of the right wing nutjobs on this board live up to their stereotypes (racism, attacking anyone who disagrees with them by accusing them of homosexuality, mindless toeing of the Bush line no matter how ridiculous it makes them look, etc)doesn't mean that those of us on the Looney Left are also bound by any such stereotypes. (See, there, I fairly called both sides a silly name.)
I think Jimmy Carter is a good MAN, which of course would immediately make him a lousy politician.
How about you? Going to see Hubert?
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| glencar |
I can't see Hubert as I've already made palns to be in Philly. I'd love to otherwise. I was in the big apple last week & got to see the Gates. Now that was nice.
I brought up Carter only because you've harped for several posts about how Bush is a dolt; Bush can't say "nuclear"; Bush is a hateful man. As a right wing nutjob, I have to remind you that people on both/all sides have syntax/pronunciation problems. And I used to agree that Carter is a good man but I think he's just another small minded pol who has caused us problems with N. Korea & Iraq. Better he should stick to building houses & stay out of building democracy. |
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| prism |
The winner in the Iraqi election is Islamic cleric Sistani, who wants to ban music and chess. |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
prism wrote:
The winner in the Iraqi election is Islamic cleric Sistani, who wants to ban music and chess.
There ya go! The people have spoken! Ah, I love the smell of democracy in the morning! |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
Oh and FPM, See you at www.Maxlugar.com
You are an All Star, aren't you?
Nah. I'd feel like that token "liberal" on Fox News. Is that guy still on there? He creepy. No wonder you guys don't like liberals.
Hey, congratulations on the upcoming blessed event! |
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| Nellcote |
FPM C10:
Oh I forgot. Anyone soldier who died in Bosnia while Clinton was getting head in the White House should be
proud that he sent their son/daughter to attack an asprin factory.
I slap myself for that glaring omission.
Go enjoy Hubert, we can agree to that.
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| sirmoonie |
quote:
prism wrote:
The winner in the Iraqi election is Islamic cleric Sistani, who wants to ban music and chess.
The point is they are now free to be tyrannized by an Islamic cleric, as opposed to having to being tyrannized by an Islamic non-cleric with relatively broad political/military (and lets face it, public) support.
Minor diff, I know, but it provides very important support for some of the broader George Walker Bush III attributed "epiphanies" you'll soon be hearing.
Anyway, why do you hate America so much, prismie? What exactly is your job? |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Nellcote wrote:
FPM C10:
Oh I forgot. Anyone soldier who died in Bosnia while Clinton was getting head in the White House should be
proud that he sent their son/daughter to attack an asprin factory.
I slap myself for that glaring omission.
Go enjoy Hubert, we can agree to that.
Again, I don't spend ANY time honking a horn for ANY politician. I don't approve of Clinton's military misadventures any more than I do Bush's. It's just that his were smaller, killed fewer people, didn't threaten to bankrupt us, didn't commit the largest part of our strongest units and leave us dangerously low on combat-ready reserves, stuff like that. A "lesser of two evils" sort of thing. And I guess the hardest thing for all of you to grasp...he's no longer in office!!!
So feel free to slap yourself, but your point is moot.
Anyone else here think it's weird that the concepts of smoking dope, questioning authority, being against war and getting head are all marks against you...on a Rolling Stones board? |
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| Nellcote |
FPM C10;
Thank you for your opinion
I always enjoy the other side of things
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| stonedinaustralia |
quote:
FPM C10 wrote:
Anyone else here think it's weird that the concepts of smoking dope, questioning authority, being against war and getting head are all marks against you...on a Rolling Stones board?
that's me i guess...
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| sirmoonie |
What does smoking dope have to do with this thread? |
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| Maxlugar |
[quote]FPM C10 wrote:
Nah. I'd feel like that token "liberal" on Fox News. Is that guy still on there? He creepy. No wonder you guys don't like liberals.
Hey, congratulations on the upcoming blessed event!
We have a different board for politics if anyone wants to go there. Strictly enforced. I like to focus on what binds us.
Thanks for the blessin's.
[Edited by Maxlugar] |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
sirmoonie wrote:
What does smoking dope have to do with this thread?
Back on page 3 I said:
"As for your original assertion about liberals crying in the schoolyard: I never played dodgeball. I was smoking dope and listening to the Stones. Sorry."
which caused Boozehound to go all apoplectic n'shit and scream:
"but I'm sure a great, enlightened intellectual thinker like yourself knows all about this, or do you not? If so why not, did you cut class to go smoke dope too, miss a few lectures, not that it surprises me that the only thing a Non-dodgeball playing, cunt pacifist like yourself would dwell on in a time of war are all possible "exit strategies"
Did you cook up some good "exit strategies" to get out of dodgeball ? I'm sure you did, but how many times could they buy the "my wrist is broken" routine until they realize it wasn't broke, just terminally limp
No it's called "realism", but I'm glad to see you've got such a big heart and sympathy for these terrorists, next time you're cutting class (or work, you do work doncha?) to go get stoned and wallow around in the daisys because your too much of a fuckin pussy to play dodgeball with the boys. Pick a few of those flowers and go place them down the barrels of your buddies AK-47's, spark up a few joints, then suck their dicks off and let'm bend ya over a barrel to demonstrate to you their expert "exit strategies", bet your partial to that, always gotta keep exploring the realms of newer and better "exit strategies" to get out of playing dodgeball..."
******
So there ya have it. It has EVERYTHING to do with it!
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| Bloozehound |
I could care less if one smokes dope, the basis of my critism was poking fun at your being a pacifist, the smoking dope/cut dodgeball-thing just gave me more bullets |
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| FPM C10 |
quote:
Bloozehound wrote:
I could care less if one smokes dope, the basis of my critism was poking fun at your being a pacifist, the smoking dope/cut dodgeball-thing just gave me more bullets
Oh. Right.
And I suppose a lot of your friends are gay too, right? |
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