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| Moonisup |
well this discussion is hard
Us europeans have to understand that the USA have saved our asses many times (WO1, WO2, Sovjet, Yugoslavia) and when people get in discussions it's hard to make rational statements, and the USA did some stupid things, but hey, weren't it England and France who let Germany make their airforce and found out to late that is was for a war? Did the US calculated wrong in NAM? Yeah they did, but in both of these wars died young courages guys, who where fighting for our freedom, and well whatever the opinion is about the war, we ain't eating sand and it's easy to make sideline comments. And we ain't agreeing on this thread so why carry on????
Rik
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| sirmoonie |
I still can't believe that Keith is pro-terrorism. Gotta be the dope. |
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| Scottfree |
quote:
Moonisup wrote:
well this discussion is hard
Us europeans have to understand that the USA have saved our asses many times (WO1, WO2, Sovjet, Yugoslavia) and when people get in discussions it's hard to make rational statements, and the USA did some stupid things, but hey, weren't it England and France who let Germany make their airforce and found out to late that is was for a war? Did the US calculated wrong in NAM? Yeah they did, but in both of these wars died young courages guys, who where fighting for our freedom, and well whatever the opinion is about the war, we ain't eating sand and it's easy to make sideline comments. And we ain't agreeing on this thread so why carry on????
Rik
We carry on because we never give up the fight and never will.. God bless America |
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| F505 |
nowadays you'd be better of if Allah blessed America |
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| Scottfree |
My answer to Woody, we can brush and floss our teeth, and fight Iraq at the same time...War on 2 fronts no problem...
[Edited by Scottfree] |
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| Moonisup |
quote:
Scottfree wrote:
My answer to Woody, we can brush and floos our teeth, and fight Iraq at the same time...War on 2 fronts no problem...
NAM was one front! IF you'd had a better president, you would have easily won it! haha it's kinda funny, the cold war fought in NAM!
My respect goes to all those guys who where there! |
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| Fiji Joe |
Hey SirMoonie...i believe we may have coined us a phrase...the dope...gotta be the dope |
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| sirmoonie |
Dope should be restricted to those who know how to use it responsible like.
My mamma didn't raise no dope. |
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| FotiniD |
Well, for one thing we agree - hell, it has to be the dope. It's the only justification I can find for some of the Americans believing so eagerly to the world's greatest and most marketable propaganda ever created. To actually be convinced that a war can be made aiming to peace, not seeing the paradox in it. To actually be convinced that all the wars America has made during the past years were not financially motivated, but just for the good of the universe. I have to congratulate president Bush, he has created marvels.
A culture's progress and civilization manifests in the way different opinions are tolerated and people who participate in it (culture) are able to hold polite conversations, agree to disagree and critically examine all data before condemning with fanatism everything that sounds infamiliar to their ears. Comments like FijiJoe's clearly demonstrate to me why a brainless PR-specialist like Bush is governing a country like America, why this world is going like hell and why on earth, in street anti-war protests I always hear people saying "Americans, murderers of people". It honestly grieves me that in the year 2003 we cannot communicate over simple matters and we need to insult people who disagree with us.
Also, I don't understand where all this hatred comes from. I obviously understand it has to do with the 09/11 attack, but had my country been attacked in such a way, it would lead me to first go through lots of thoughts and then prevent people like Bush from fighting fire with fire. If there is one thing that has led to terrorist acts like that, apart from the obvious insanity of terrorists -which is of course as condemned as war acts- is the American state's (notice - state's, nothing to do with the people, or so I had hoped till now) arrogance and "cop of the universe" attitude, with lots of marketable slogans (i.e. "war on terrorism") and even more hidden financial benefits.
Humans have evolved. We don't hang from trees no more. We should stop making wars and start investing all these money to things like educating people, building schools and offering positively instead of killing each other. What for people? What for? We're all made of the shame shit, and we all live on the same side. Letting mad governors shape our opinions has led to all this, both sides of the coin. |
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| FotiniD |
Oh, and Fiji, regarding your "enablers of the freedom" commentary, which I found rather amusing. For plain historical reasons, and without any self/hyper-patriot/hero syndrome, let me just clarify that democracy was established in ancient Greece. At that time, America as known today, was inexistent. Of course, the real America existed with its native people, whom were killed by Europeans who established colonies. So America's recent history has nothing to be proud of in regards to freedom, except for "wars for freedom" which I'm too bored to comment again.
And to set the record straight, I have no problem with America whatsoever. I find it has some very good qualities, as I've expressed in some previous post under this thread. It's irrational and fascist behaviors I'm having a problem with. I surely believe and hope that not all Americans are like this. |
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| 100 Years Ago |
There�s one thing no one has mentioned in this long and winding thread. The fact that we have never been under direct attack on our soil from another foreign country. The effects of war for us have always been muted, bodies of fallen soldiers have been returned home and loved ones and mourners nationwide have shed tears. But we�ve never been woken up by the sound of machine guns of battling soldiers, the whir of jets dropping bombs, land-mined roads or other direct horrors of war. I don�t know how that plays in the psychology of the differing views of war between much of Europe and we Americans. Quite a bit I would imagine. And even though they�re millionaire rock star/living gods Mick and Keith were born during a war and grew up in a post-war Britain wracked with the damage of Nazi bombs. We�ve never had to go underground while the air raid sirens wailed in the middle of night returning to find a home, a block of homes destroyed by bombs dropped from the sky. We�ve had horrible, devastating tragedies at Pearl Harbor and the Twin Towers, but with the exception of the Civil War, very little destruction and bloodshed caused by war on U.S. soil. It definitely affects our mindset when it comes to war. It�s also something foreign countries should consider before criticizing us for our views in fighting wars in general, Iraq in specific. We should also consider the direct effect war has had on our European and other allies through the past century before criticizing their views. |
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| telecaster |
quote:
FotiniD wrote:
Oh, and Fiji, regarding your "enablers of the freedom" commentary, which I found rather amusing. For plain historical reasons, and without any self/hyper-patriot/hero syndrome, let me just clarify that democracy was established in ancient Greece. At that time, America as known today, was inexistent. Of course, the real America existed with its native people, whom were killed by Europeans who established colonies. So America's recent history has nothing to be proud of in regards to freedom, except for "wars for freedom" which I'm too bored to comment again.
And to set the record straight, I have no problem with America whatsoever. I find it has some very good qualities, as I've expressed in some previous post under this thread. It's irrational and fascist behaviors I'm having a problem with. I surely believe and hope that not all Americans are like this.
Fotini: Regardless of your dislike of the US, if it were not for the US you would be speaking German or Russian now
and not be able to express your views in any way. Period. |
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| Fiji Joe |
Fotini wrote:
"Oh, and Fiji, regarding your "enablers of the freedom" commentary, which I found rather amusing. For plain historical reasons, and without any self/hyper-patriot/hero syndrome, let me just clarify that democracy was established in ancient Greece."
Huh? Last I checked Ancient Greece was a democratic republic...there is a difference...and then, only a democratice republic with respect to a select few...again, big difference...One might think one might know this if it were their native land...Anyhow, I wasn't referring to America as the "enablers of freedom"...how presumptious of you...Rather, I was referring to all those of each person's respective land that obtained and have guarded the very freedom which you take for granted...only to be smacked in the eye by their dope-smoking prodigy...
And damn, gee, America fights to protect its economic interests...nice deduction Sherlock...really?...Of course they do...Newsflash grasshopper...America's economic interests are inseparable from expanding democracy which brings along with, expanding markets...Congratulations my textbook buddy, you've discovered the secrets of capitalism...And you think America is the only nation acting upon its economic interests in this debate regading Iraq...You better check France, Germany and Russia's investment ledger my friend...Matter of fact, do that and ponder on it before you offer up more knee-jerk reactionary trough-slobber
The only mistakes Americans have made is to assume that some people are able to accept the responsibilities of freedom...Which is decidedly not the case...There are too many cultures on this planet that are simply not equipped, by reasons of years of systematic subjugation of large portions of their populations, to function as free men and free women...There are others, who only think they're free as their government slowly but surely slip towards socialism and oligarchy...It goes without saying, it's a helluva lot easier to have someone tell you what to do as opposed to figuring it out yourself...
I'm the first to support America's return to its pre world war II isolationism...Let the world protest for that...Man, I would like nothing better...
[Edited by Fiji Joe] |
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| Highwire Rob |
quote:
Moonisup wrote:
sorry to say, the Israeli's bombed the US ship "liberty" to get them down cos they heard they where killing 1000 Egyptians,
38 americans who where unarmed died in that shooting, so I think Israel thinks of Israel most of the time, (i don't blame then) but don't praise them to much!
Moonisup, well stated!!
We sell 'em missiles, We sell 'em tanks
We give 'em credit, You can call the bank ...
"Survivors and many key government officials including Secretary of State Dean Rusk and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Moorer say the attack was no accident. Two Israeli officers have come forward to admit that the attack was no accident. Yet the Israeli government and its supporters insist it was a 'tragic case of misidentification' and charge that survivors and their eyewitness supporters are lying." http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/
We send all our men into the front lines
We're hoping that we backed the right side
With hot guns and cold, cold nights ...
[Edited by Highwire Rob] |
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| sirmoonie |
Aww c'mon Fotini, of course there are elements of all you said in there, but there is much more going on than that. A true consensus of the international community has repeatedly gone to the forum where these issues are dealt with and almost unanimously agreed that measures need to be taken against a government that everyone agrees is a harmful and dangerous one. Its been debated, all kinds of measures and ways to monitor/disarm Iraq have been proposed and STILL are being proposed. I'm actually quite amazed that the world has been able to conduct this in such a professional and upfront manner.
Did you see Tony Blair's grilling on this two days ago? You should have. He was incredible and didn't hesitate to admit all the problems and speculation inherent in his approach. But he also made his case and any reservations I had prior to that were evaporated, but more importantly, as Blair said, even if you disagree with him, there is abundant evidence and logic to at least make even the most sceptical person understand the position against Saddam Hussein. I don't think you are trying to listen to any of it. I'm not saying the rest of these guys are listening to anything they don't like, they never do, but neither are you right now. |
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| telecaster |
Highwire where is Darrin Cagin? I hope I didn't scare you away with my comments |
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| Highwire Rob |
quote:
telecaster wrote:
Highwire where is Darrin Cagin? I hope I didn't scare you away with my comments
Did you see how hot Daryn was looking in that blizzard report from NY City? Her full parka, her snow shoes...prancing winsomely in a winter wonderland....ahhhh...her cool Stanford educated mind...those subtle Santa Barbara, CA-like gestures and turns of phrases...
Telecaster, why did you have to bring her up here?... I haven't given up...one day I shall make News with her (preferably not of the restraining order kind). 
Next time I post her picture it will be signed and listing her favorite Stones song... I figure she must have a favorite Stones song...
[Edited by Highwire Rob] |
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| telecaster |
quote:
Highwire Rob wrote:
Did you see how hot Daryn was looking in that blizzard report from NY City? Her full parka, her snow shoes...prancing winsomely in a winter wonderland....ahhhh...her cool Stanford educated mind...those subtle Santa Barbara, CA-like gestures and turns of phrases...
Telecaster, why did you have to bring her up here?... I haven't given up...one day a shall make the News with her (preferably not a restraining order)
Next time I post her picture it will be signed and listing her favorite Stones song... I figure she must have a favorite Stones song...
Ya, Daryn looked great in a snowmobile suit, 3 sweater vests and a 2 parkas that Adm. Byrd would kill for.
Did I mention Laurie Dhue was a swimmer in college?
[Edited by telecaster] |
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| Maxlugar |
I could look at that pic of Laurie Dhue me all night.
Think I will.....
BOB MACKY! |
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| telecaster |
quote:
Maxlugar wrote:
I could look at that pic of Laurie Dhue me all night.
Think I will.....
BOB MACKY!
Of course you could Maxy, you know class |
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| icydanger |
I wish these fire blazes would stop.
sad
oh these plane crashes too by the way |
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| Joey |
" I wish these fire blazes would stop.
sad
oh these plane crashes too by the way "
Icy , you raise some interesting points . I too have often felt that ....................Wait .............Oh ,Sh## ! :
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Shecky !
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