| 24th January 2007 08:24 PM |
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| pdog |
quote:
rasputin56 wrote:
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with you
LOL! |
| 24th January 2007 08:41 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
rasputin56 wrote:
Don't worry, Riffy. You guys still have Joementum. BTW, nice slapdown by Warner on ol' Joe today, too.
Warner?! LOL! Good one!!
Raspy please enlighten me has to just why it would be good for the USA to abandon Iraq,let Iran have hegemony over Iraq,allow Al Queda to have a brand new "home state" to operate from,allow the third largest oil deposit in the world to fall into the hands of Iran/Al Queda/Shia radicals,allow the genocide that will surely follow a retreat,and,last but not least,illustrate to the entire world that if you bloody the nose of the USA the Dems will force us out(Gee,that's EXACTLY what OBL said would happen too! Just like Somolia! He knows your party better than you do apparently!).
Please,without slamming Bush or Republicans,tell me why this would be a good thing for our country? In other words give me your plan?! Lord knows the Dems are not be being at all forthcoming with a plan other than beat feet and retreat then blame Bush! So what's your plan other than surrender to a bunch of radicalized fucktards that want all of us dead?!
Riffy |
| 24th January 2007 08:52 PM |
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| pdog |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Warner?! LOL! Good one!!
Raspy please enlighten me has to just why it would be good for the USA to abandon Iraq,let Iran have hegemony over Iraq,allow Al Queda to have a brand new "home state" to operate from,allow the third largest oil deposit in the world to fall into the hands of Iran/Al Queda/Shia radicals,allow the genocide that will surely follow a retreat,and,last but not least,illustrate to the entire world that if you bloody the nose of the USA the Dems will force us out(Gee,that's EXACTLY what OBL said would happen too! Just like Somolia! He knows your party better than you do apparently!).
Please,without slamming Bush or Republicans,tell me why this would be a good thing for our country? In other words give me your plan?! Lord knows the Dems are not be being at all forthcoming with a plan other than beat feet and retreat then blame Bush! So what's your plan other than surrender to a bunch of radicalized fucktards that want all of us dead?!
Riffy
Riffy, Bush is the boss, not the dems. he started this, and you're asking someone else to make the plan. not only is asking someone to do something, when bush has shown, he does what he wants anyway, it's also taking the responsibility of this off him. Where's his plan? Who do we back in Iraq? and please, don't tell me Shia and al queada get along. Al Queada is sunni based, and they are split off from most Sunni's, and that only empasizes the point that Bush didn't listen to the experts who warned about this. you want a plan. get bush out, get our troops home, let these fuckwads fight it out, invade again later! But don't blame democrats or republicans, Bush did this, and he is stil lthe commander in chief! there has never been a miltary action by the congress or senate, they only gave him the option to use it, and he did. they buy the bullets, he shoots the gun, and like Cheney, he is a poor shot! |
| 24th January 2007 09:00 PM |
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| pdog |
riffy, you got a BM too. I won't let you down this time! |
| 24th January 2007 09:02 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
pdog wrote:
Riffy, Bush is the boss, not the dems. he started this, and you're asking someone else to make the plan. not only is asking someone to do something, when bush has shown, he does what he wants anyway, it's also taking the responsibility of this off him. Where's his plan? Who do we back in Iraq? and please, don't tell me Shia and al queada get along. Al Queada is sunni based, and they are split off from most Sunni's, and that only empasizes the point that Bush didn't listen to the experts who warned about this. you want a plan. get bush out, get our troops home, let these fuckwads fight it out, invade again later! But don't blame democrats or republicans, Bush did this, and he is stil lthe commander in chief! there has never been a miltary action by the congress or senate, they only gave him the option to use it, and he did. they buy the bullets, he shoots the gun, and like Cheney, he is a poor shot!
Firstly I am aware that Al Qeuda is Sunni. I inadvertantly posted Shia. However,Iran is also a Sunni led nation with ties to these radical fucks! Secondly,the main problem here is that the left is always trying to claim that this is "Bush's war"! NO IT IS NOT!!! He may have gotten us involved,and no doubt mistakes have been made,but the USA is at war! Not Bush! Our country as a whole will suffer the consequences of Iraq,for good or ill. As the Dems now control congress they have a very real say in how we proceed there. I just want to know exactly how they want to handle the situation other than to continue to use it as a battering ram against Bush.
Riffy |
| 24th January 2007 09:04 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
pdog wrote:
riffy, you got a BM too. I won't let you down this time!
LOL! I've got a BM?! Geesh,I don't think I really want that!
Riffy |
| 24th January 2007 09:07 PM |
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| rasputin56 |
Iran is overwhelmingly Shia. This sure gets confusing doesn't it? |
| 24th January 2007 09:08 PM |
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| pdog |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
Firstly I am aware that Al Qeuda is Sunni. I inadvertantly posted Shia. However,Iran is also a Sunni led nation with ties to these radical fucks! Secondly,the main problem here is that the left is always trying to claim that this is "Bush's war"! NO IT IS NOT!!! He may have gotten us involved,and no doubt mistakes have been made,but the USA is at war! Not Bush! Our country as a whole will suffer the consequences of Iraq,for good or ill. As the Dems now control congress they have a very real say in how we proceed there. I just want to know exactly how they want to handle the situation other than to continue to use it as a battering ram against Bush.
Riffy
except for money, they have no control... that is how Nam ended, they just stopped the funding... When i say it's his war, it's b/c he makes the decisions. The amount of people he's ignored, warnings, predictions ect... That's on him, he owns that, and all the flack. and it's not a Dem or rep. issue, both parties are unhappy with the bad job. And not just the bad job, the broken promoises, and lies about how we're turning corners ect...
Bfore we ask each other the question of plans, do we honestly have the abilty to be able to see down the road? All i see is regional war... |
| 24th January 2007 09:10 PM |
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| pdog |
quote:
rasputin56 wrote:
Iran is overwhelmingly Shia. This sure gets confusing doesn't it?
If it was simple, maybe Bush would've gotten it! maybe if he listened to people outside of the closed circle... ignorance and a complicted situation, not a good combo!
for the record, i called the regional war scenario, the civil war scenario, and bush trying to blame someone else for this years ago. |
| 24th January 2007 09:17 PM |
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| rasputin56 |
I knew you had no plan. |
| 24th January 2007 09:32 PM |
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| rasputin56 |
And Riffy, I highly recommend Carlo D'Este's "Patton: Genius for War". It's a little slow at times but it's a damn good bio of the man. |
| 24th January 2007 09:35 PM |
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| Riffhard |
pdog I got your PM and responded. You the man! Thanks bro!
Now I too will admit that I get confused while discussing the differences between Shia and Sunni. I admit that I was wrong about Iran,and the crazy thing is that I knew that! It's why Saddam and Iran went to war afterall.
However,there is still the real and insanely dangerous threat from Iran achieving hegemony over Iraq. They are the one nation that is responsible for flamming the sectarian violence between the two groups,and of supplying the weaponery to further this violence.
Today when Kerry bowed out of running for POTUS he said,"It's time for me to help fight the real war on terror." Now that right there is what I am talking about! Dems like Kerry don't see Iraq as part of the war on terror. It is! That is where the terrorists are right now!
Mark my words the consequences of us bagging out on Iraq are fucking huge! From the propaganda that it will give the terrorists worldwide to the oil that will immediately fall into the hands of a meddling Iran. The stakes are extreme,and if we can not put the partisanship behind us and come to terms with these very real facts then we might as well just raise the white flag. My fear is that many,not all,but many,Dems are ready to do just that inside Iraq.
Riffy |
| 24th January 2007 09:36 PM |
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| pdog |
quote:
rasputin56 wrote:
I knew you had no plan.
I have a plan. it involves a draft, a new commander, ME, and troop deployments to Afghanistan and Kuwait and Norther Iraq. It would put alot of pressure on saudi arabia to act on terrorism in their country and would also put Saudi arabia in the diplomatic circle with Iran, Turkey Syria and others in the region. I would involve China and Russia to the extent they wouldn't feel threatened over losing control in the region, even if it meant giving them more economic power. Safety is more important than worrying about that now. it's a rough draft, but I'm also an ignorant fool. so, i'm more qualified than Bush at least. |
| 24th January 2007 09:41 PM |
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| pdog |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
pdog I got your PM and responded. You the man! Thanks bro!
Now I too will admit that I get confused while discussing the differences between Shia and Sunni. I admit that I was wrong about Iran,and the crazy thing is that I knew that! It's why Saddam and Iran went to war afterall.
However,there is still the real and insanely dangerous threat from Iran achieving hegemony over Iraq. They are the one nation that is responsible for flamming the sectarian violence between the two groups,and of supplying the weaponery to further this violence.
Today when Kerry bowed out of running for POTUS he said,"It's time for me to help fight the real war on terror." Now that right there is what I am talking about! Dems like Kerry don't see Iraq as part of the war on terror. It is! That is where the terrorists are right now!
Mark my words the consequences of us bagging out on Iraq are fucking huge! From the propaganda that it will give the terrorists worldwide to the oil that will immediately fall into the hands of a meddling Iran. The stakes are extreme,and if we can not put the partisanship behind us and come to terms with these very real facts then we might as well just raise the white flag. My fear is that many,not all,but many,Dems are ready to do just that inside Iraq.
Riffy
My above post touchs on my idea. I think we should directly pressure Iran, but then again, all that will happen will be genocide! anyway i look at it, it's fucked... |
| 24th January 2007 09:46 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
rasputin56 wrote:
And Riffy, I highly recommend Carlo D'Este's "Patton: Genius for War". It's a little slow at times but it's a damn good bio of the man.
I'll check it out thanks Raspy. Did you read "General Patton-A Soldiers Life" by Stanley Hirshson? It's a very good one as well. Patton was one complicated/conflicted guy. We need more Pattons these days. He knew dick about politics,but as a warrior goes he was unmatched in history.
Riffy |
| 24th January 2007 09:48 PM |
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| pdog |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
I'll check it out thanks Raspy. Did you read "General Patton-A Soldiers Life" by Stanley Hirshson? It's a very good one as well. Patton was one complicated/conflicted guy. We need more Pattons these days. He knew dick about politics,but as a warrior goes he was unmatched in history.
Riffy
Where was he buried? and MacCarthur too? We've got a great cemetary here in SF, in the presidio, I've been meaning to check it out. |
| 24th January 2007 09:53 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
pdog wrote:
Where was he buried? and MacCarthur too? We've got a great cemetary here in SF, in the presidio, I've been meaning to check it out.
He's buried in Luxembourg with his fallen troops from the 3rd and 7th Armies. It was his family's call.
Riffy |
| 24th January 2007 10:28 PM |
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| Brainbell Jangler |
quote:
Riffhard wrote:
However,there is still the real and insanely dangerous threat from Iran achieving hegemony over Iraq. They are the one nation that is responsible for flamming the sectarian violence between the two groups,and of supplying the weaponery to further this violence.
Riffy
Correct on the first point, Riffy, But who put Iran in the position to threaten hegemony over Iraq? Bush Jr. and his neo-cons. Why do you suppose Bush Sr. chose not to march on Baghdad and overthrow Saddam in 1991? Precisely because the power vacuum would have been filled by Iran. We should have left well enough alone in Iraq, kept all our strength in Afghanistan and caught OBL, and not transformed an orderly dictatorship into a failed state and al-Qaeda staging area.
The sectarian violence in Iraq was held in check by Saddam's reign of terror. We created the conditions which we now bemoan. Nothing we do will fix the problem, no matter how long we stay or how many of our troops we sacrifice. There is no difference between today's "stay the course" argument and the one made during Vietnam. Bush abused the unity produced by 9/11 to push his Iraq war through Congress. Congress is to blame for not having the political courage to stand up to Bush. But it is stil Bush's war and Bush's mess. The Bush plan now is clearly to shift the blame for the all-too-predictable mess he made onto Congress or to leave it to the next President to "lose" the war. |
| 25th January 2007 12:01 AM |
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| glencar |
Bush Sr. didn't march on Baghdad in 1991 because the coalition at the time said NO WAY. |
| 25th January 2007 12:25 AM |
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| Brainbell Jangler |
quote:
glencar wrote:
Bush Sr. didn't march on Baghdad in 1991 because the coalition at the time said NO WAY.
"While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in 'mission creep,' and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. . . . We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. . . . Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."--George H.W. Bush & Brent Scowcroft, from "Why We Didn't Remove Saddam," Time, March 2, 1998
If you have any doubt about who Bush Sr. was thinking of when he wrote that he was "concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf," take a look at a map. Hint: It isn't Kuwait. |
| 25th January 2007 08:44 AM |
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| oldkr |
god bless karl rove man, he's a genius trully he's moved the focus from Iraq to iran, after iran will come china and korea. We all know the only reason bush went into iraq is to finish what his father started.
I don't subscribe to the culture of fear, if we pull out of iraq nothing insane will happen, theres no domino affects here. Terrorism will continue as it has done for thousands of years because all we can do is react to it. Iraq and iran, just like the isreal palestine situation will still be raging long after we're all dead, as it has been, its just the way of the world. its only since WWII that america has seen its self as the world police, perhaps china will blow a few sattelites out of the sky (take your pick) and put us back in our place.
OLDKR |
| 25th January 2007 10:15 AM |
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| glencar |
First of all, Team America started well before WWII. Secondd, losing in Iraq sets America up for a huge loss of face with much of the 3rd World & even many anti-American assholes in Euroland. And let's be honest, there are plenty o' them. I don't want us pouring even more troops & money over there for no reason but I don't want us to just cut & run with our tail between our legs. It'd be nice if the Dems had some sense of the future outside of the polls. |
| 25th January 2007 10:52 AM |
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| oldkr |
glencar its time to admit america has no more face to loose its all gone!
OLDKR |
| 25th January 2007 11:04 AM |
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| glencar |
That's disgraceful. Go home. |
| 25th January 2007 11:10 AM |
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| LadyJane |
quote:
glencar wrote:
That's disgraceful. Go home.
Like it or not, that is how many people perceive the United States, Blue.
Very sad, imo, but nonetheless true.
KR has every right to express his opinion.
LJ.
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| 25th January 2007 11:13 AM |
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| Jumping Jack |
How much of this do you agree with?
A rapid withdrawal from Iraq , leaving that country to pretty much fend for itself.
Discussions, but no confrontation, with Iran. Play down any danger from Iran.
Free medical care for low-income Americans, run by the government .
No improved security at the southern border, maintain the chaotic status quo; maintain open borders.
A big tax hike on affluent Americans and government regulation of corporate salaries for fat cats
Suspension of NSA listening programs and target suspected terrorists
Civilian trials for captured terrorists
And the closing of Guantanamo Bay.
Gay marriage, unfettered abortion, medical euthanasia, fetal stem cell research and a host of other social changes.
Cut through the bickering, this is what the presidental race in 2008 will be all about.
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| 25th January 2007 11:57 AM |
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| LadyJane |
gonna be a LONG 22 months around here!!!
LJ. |
| 25th January 2007 11:59 AM |
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| glencar |
It'd be nice to see fewer obnoxious statements. |
| 25th January 2007 12:01 PM |
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| LadyJane |
quote:
glencar wrote:
It'd be nice to see fewer obnoxious statements.
Around here???
I fear it's going to get worse!!!
As long as we have the Joey? thread to keep us laughing, we will survive.
LJ. |
| 25th January 2007 12:01 PM |
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| Riffhard |
quote:
Jumping Jack wrote:
How much of this do you agree with?
A rapid withdrawal from Iraq , leaving that country to pretty much fend for itself.
Discussions, but no confrontation, with Iran. Play down any danger from Iran.
Free medical care for low-income Americans, run by the government .
No improved security at the southern border, maintain the chaotic status quo; maintain open borders.
A big tax hike on affluent Americans and government regulation of corporate salaries for fat cats
Suspension of NSA listening programs and target suspected terrorists
Civilian trials for captured terrorists
And the closing of Guantanamo Bay.
Gay marriage, unfettered abortion, medical euthanasia, fetal stem cell research and a host of other social changes.
Cut through the bickering, this is what the presidental race in 2008 will be all about.
Huh,game,set,match. That right there is why I will never again vote Democrat. They would say yes to every one of those propositions,and would feel fine by doing so.
Riffy |
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