The traditional image of the class system is not as clear since the decline of heavy industries and mass manufacturing. I think it also depends what part of the country you are from. However, as you grow up and meet others, you learn never to judge anyone by their background - unless they have an strong dislike for the Stones...
Mark
16th January 2008 06:45 PM
SheRat
Interesting. I thought Civil Servants were upper class--don't they get a higher percentage of peerage appts than anyone else and go to Oxford? Like Sir Humphrey Applebee?
When I was in London for school, one of our speakers was one of the 3 only black women in the UK with a doctorate (hers was in Philosophy) and she kept saying that, we, as Americans, knew nothing of a class system like there is in the UK.
I strongly disagree. There's a class system in America, people just like to pretend it's not there. Maybe the lines are a bit more porous in terms of access--but as was stated earlier, class doesn't necessarily apply to income. You can be rich as you want--there are still some parties you're not gonna get invited to cause you're a hick from La.
I love talking about the social construction of class.
On the same study abroad program, the chicks wanted to force everyone in the room to have this group confession about what class we were: a friend of mine and I were like, this is ridiculous. Only middle class people don't know what class they are: when you're poor, you fucking know it. When you're rich, you fucking know it.
But it's those tiny little disctinctions: white collar poor vs, blue collar poor, nouveau riche vs. solid upper middle class, immigrant trash vs. white trash. I love that shit.
16th January 2008 07:10 PM
Gazza
quote:SheRat wrote:
Interesting. I thought Civil Servants were upper class--don't they get a higher percentage of peerage appts than anyone else and go to Oxford? Like Sir Humphrey Applebee?
No..upper class is traditionally aristocracy/royalty
Anyone can be a civil servant and its a huge range of jobs and salaries, right down to someone licking stamps in a social security office.
16th January 2008 07:24 PM
SheRat
quote:Gazza wrote:
No..upper class is traditionally aristocracy/royalty
Anyone can be a civil servant and its a huge range of jobs and salaries, right down to someone licking stamps in a social security office.
So, wait, by that definition, Sir Humphrey is middle class? Even though he's a sir and has got all those letters after his name? Doesn't that mean he's now aristocracy? Isn't the Civil Service a way to move into the artisto realm?
16th January 2008 07:34 PM
texile
quote:SheRat wrote:
I strongly disagree. There's a class system in America, people just like to pretend it's not there. Maybe the lines are a bit more porous in terms of access--but as was stated earlier, class doesn't necessarily apply to income. You can be rich as you want--there are still some parties you're not gonna get invited to cause you're a hick from La.
absolutely true -
americans play their own game of class distinction and it's nasty.
in fact, i think the americans have a broader spectrum.
16th January 2008 07:35 PM
Gazza
quote:Sherat wrote:
So, wait, by that definition, Sir Humphrey is middle class? Even though he's a sir and has got all those letters after his name? Doesn't that mean he's now aristocracy? Isn't the Civil Service a way to move into the artisto realm?
Not for me, it isnt, luv.....!
The Civil Service is just a regular 9 to 5 (and underpaid!) job for 99% of the people in it.
You're assuming its all toffeenosed twits with bowler hats!
Having a knighthood doesnt give you any privileges that other people dont have.
[Edited by Gazza]
16th January 2008 07:38 PM
SheRat
quote:Gazza wrote:
Not for me, it isnt, luv.....!
The Civil Service is just a regular 9 to 5 job for 99% of the people in it.
You're assuming its all toffeenosed twits with bowler hats!
Having a knighthood doesnt give you any privileges that other people dont have.
I guess that's just the idea I got about it from the show. SO, what the hell is Sir Humphrey then? Is he upper class or middle class? And are Cabinet Secretary Civil Servants like, groomed for those jobs as youngsters?
And what do these mean? "GCB, KBE , MVO, MA (Oxon)" Anything at all?
[Edited by SheRat]
16th January 2008 07:42 PM
stonedinaustralia
the linguistic/cultural divides are as interesting as the financial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English
16th January 2008 07:54 PM
Gazza
quote:SheRat wrote:
I guess that's just the idea I got about it from the show. SO, what the hell is Sir Humphrey then? Is he upper class or middle class? And are Cabinet Secretary Civil Servants like, groomed for those jobs as youngsters?
And what do these mean? "GCB, KBE , MVO, MA (Oxon)" Anything at all?
Most of these people go up through the ranks. The character wouldnt be BORN into aristocracy.
KBE is Knight of the Order of the British Empire. Mick Jagger would have KBE after his name.
MA is Master of Arts. Its just a university degree, although it involves a couple of years more than the standard degree of Bachelor of Arts (which I have). Its sort of between a university degree and a doctorate (phd)
Oxon just refers to the university who awarded the degree. In this case, Oxford.
I had to look up MVO - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MVO
[Edited by Gazza]
16th January 2008 08:02 PM
SheRat
quote:stonedinaustralia wrote:
the linguistic/cultural divides are as interesting as the financial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English
Again, this is true in america. to wit: my mother (probably falsely) claims that people are always asking her if she is from MASS or CT, because of her "accent." Reportedly, she giggles and explains that her "roomate at Notre Dame was from Greenwich, CT" and that she just "must have picked up the accent, and prononciations of certain words."
Never mind that this was freakin' 30+ years ago and nevermind that the whole damn school was filled with Catholics anyways, who are decidedly NOT IN THE CLUB.
In my mother's mind, this little charade raises her class rank in the mind of its beholder. Ahh, how she tries, she tries!
16th January 2008 08:14 PM
texile
quote:SheRat wrote:
Again, this is true in america. to wit: my mother (probably falsely) claims that people are always asking her if she is from MASS or CT, because of her "accent." Reportedly, she giggles and explains that her "roomate at Notre Dame was from Greenwich, CT" and that she just "must have picked up the accent, and prononciations of certain words."
Never mind that this was freakin' 30+ years ago and nevermind that the whole damn school was filled with Catholics anyways, who are decidedly NOT IN THE CLUB.
In my mother's mind, this little charade raises her class rank in the mind of its beholder. Ahh, how she tries, she tries!
that's pretty funny....
i deliberataly mute my texan pronunciations outside of my podunk hometown - but only in houston, austin, dallas etc...
elsewhere, like in new york - i intentionally used ya'll alot.
all about pretensions and perceptions or percieved perceptions.
16th January 2008 08:42 PM
Fiji Joe
quote:texile wrote:
absolutely true -
americans play their own game of class distinction and it's nasty.
in fact, i think the americans have a broader spectrum.
makes you wonder how we ever got anything done...spend some significant time in some european countries...the class distinction here is nowhere near as pervasive and unbending as it is there...that's something to be thankful for...not to over-exaggerate to fit your own needs
16th January 2008 08:46 PM
SheRat
quote:
that's pretty funny....
i deliberataly mute my texan pronunciations outside of my podunk hometown - but only in houston, austin, dallas etc...
elsewhere, like in new york - i intentionally used ya'll alot.
all about pretensions and perceptions or percieved perceptions.
Yah, much of my habit of swearing every other word was to piss off intellectefucks and "feminists" in college. I've lost my Chicago accent--though, I didn't try to. It just happened somehow. And I also will not stop saying "like" just because some fucktard from Indiana is somehow a programmer but for some reason hasn't been clued into the Internet/Geek age and wants to give me shit about it.
In other news, the Texas accent is probably the sexiest in the country. Esp. as rendered by Matt McConaughay in "Dazed and Confused"...
16th January 2008 09:10 PM
Fiji Joe
quote:SheRat wrote:
In other news, the Texas accent is probably the sexiest in the country.
No doubt...sexy!
16th January 2008 09:18 PM
texile
quote:SheRat wrote:
In other news, the Texas accent is probably the sexiest in the country. Esp. as rendered by Matt McConaughay in "Dazed and Confused"...
he's got a great texas drawl....it's best when it's a little lazy.
but the the texas twang often gets confused by many as a southern accent.....
it's a completely different animal.
being a texican, the twang was not as pronounced, but the phraseology remains.
remember urban cowboy?
that's where i grew up - literally...pasadena, texas - the honky tonk capital of the world, or 'stinkadena' because of the rough-neck refinery culture....
even now, i'll be in some upscale restaraunt in houston and immediately realize i don't belong there..
but i love that - it gives you an identity and an authenticity, podunk that it may be.
we is what we is.
16th January 2008 11:14 PM
Fiji Joe
quote:tumbled.f.u. wrote:
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Fleabit?
17th January 2008 09:20 AM
Highwire Rob
What do the British here think about the SEVEN UP series of documentaries as insight into your class system and effects/perceptions of it (changed or unchanged) over the decades? Last year I watched all the films again--what a fascinating rare examination of personalities, relationships, and life struggles. I can't wait till the next installment (56 Up) is due to be filmed (2011/2012). Of course some of the original 14 participants (7 yrs. old from diverse English socioeconomic backgrounds in 1964) have declined to continue. Maybe some will come back to the next film as has happened in the past docs.
O.K. Here's a Stones trivia challenge for ya -- Who will be the first to state the link between the SEVEN UP series and The Rolling Stones?
"Bring me a boy until the age of seven and I will give you the man." --Jesuit saying
[Edited by Highwire Rob]
17th January 2008 09:52 AM
nanatod
quote:Highwire Rob wrote:
O.K. Here's a Stones trivia challenge for ya -- Who will be the first to state the link between the 7 UP series and The Rolling Stones?
Michael Apted, who directed the 7 Up series, also directed the movie, "Enigma," which was produced by Mick Jagger.
17th January 2008 10:03 AM
Highwire Rob
Nanatod! Good one! I 've got to give it to you -- Michael Apted -- Yes. But the Enigma link wasn't the one I thought about! I was thinking more in terms of a work relating to the whole band...
[Edited by Highwire Rob]
17th January 2008 10:45 AM
GotToRollMe
quote:tumbled.f.u. wrote:
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?
17th January 2008 11:24 AM
Ten Thousand Motels
In the end there's really only two classes of people....them and us.
[Edited by Ten Thousand Motels]
17th January 2008 01:15 PM
glencar
quote:GotToRollMe wrote:
?
LOL
17th January 2008 03:06 PM
Gazza
quote:tumbled.f.u. wrote:
NOTE TO ROckS OFF POSTERS: RIFFHARD, FIJI AND GLENCAR
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Note to you (whoever you are) - no, they didnt.
17th January 2008 03:09 PM
texile
7 up was a great series...
the first one really had an impact on me.
that guy neil had me depressed for weeks after i saw it...
17th January 2008 03:46 PM
Highwire Rob
quote:texile wrote:
7 up was a great series...
the first one really had an impact on me.
that guy neil had me depressed for weeks after i saw it...
Yes, yes! I believe this is a YouTube of an early Neil segment. I can't see it right now b/c my computer at work doesn't have vid.
What a brilliant mind Neil has--even under the circumstances of his mental illness. It's uplifting to see later in the series how he becomes active in local government.
17th January 2008 04:15 PM
texile
quote:Highwire Rob wrote:
Yes, yes! I believe this is a YouTube of an early Neil segment. I can't see it right now b/c my computer at work doesn't have vid.
What a brilliant mind Neil has--even under the circumstances of his mental illness. It's uplifting to see later in the series how he becomes active in local government.
yeah, i had the same reaction when i saw him become active-
he seemed so aimless and toubled in the first installment -
i was worried about him.......
it just goes to show how chapters in our lives (however difficult) are fleeting and not permanent.
17th January 2008 05:14 PM
Scot Rocks
Having worked as a civil servant towards the bottom end of the pile, I can assure you that for the vast majority it's certainly no middle class occupation!
Up until the 1960s, civil servants in Whitehall and the Foreign Office were pretty much hand picked from Oxford, Eton etc - in the old jobs for the boys mentality. However, after that it began to change mainly due to a govt report into the civil service.
Today, class and wealth is just too complex an issue to simplfy.
17th January 2008 05:29 PM
SheRat
quote:texile wrote:
yeah, i had the same reaction when i saw him become active-
he seemed so aimless and toubled in the first installment -
i was worried about him.......
it just goes to show how chapters in our lives (however difficult) are fleeting and not permanent.
wow, sounds like I need to see this. netflixing...
I was thinking more in terms of a work relating to the whole band... 
?